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Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

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Dessard said:
Habsburgs Delenda Est is much the same, I find it extremely unlikely that we break through in either the Alps or Vienna. The enemy has numbers and strong defensive positions ans we can't concentrate our forces while making a second attack somewhere completely different. I'd rather a plan that had the Allies only apply pressure, but better one pointless offensive than two.
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What? The Italians outnumber the Austrians 3:2 and the defenses have been heavily degraded, and the threat to Dalmatia turns that into a 2:1 advantage. Given the fact that they can pick where to attack, they can definitely break through the line if it isn't reinforced.
 
Nyvis said:
Crashing our whole Austrian front into a narrow approach to Vienna's fortifications for that sounds like a colossal waste in manpower. And sadly a probing attack on it wasn't an option. It's good to have a benefit to the attack even if we don't succeed but it shouldn't be the main draw because our generals are definitely going to try to make it work and bleed for it. Knowing that I'd rather spend one more turn setting it up so it succeeds.

I feel like people are also overselling the importance of letting our allies connect with us. Them tying up Austrian soldiers by forcing them to defend the Alps forever at very low human and material costs is fine, actually. It means that part of our alliance system is still going to be fresh when the war ends, and that's great to secure our gains.
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On the first, again, the longer we're fighting over Austria the heavier the casualties will be. The quicker we end the Austrian ability to resist, the less losses we will take.

On the second, Case Vigo, which you voted for, has the Allies attempt a full offensive also, so nothing about these very low human and material costs are true there.
 
Dessard said:
Habsburgs Delenda Est is much the same, I find it extremely unlikely that we break through in either the Alps or Vienna. The enemy has numbers and prepared defensive positions, and we can't concentrate our forces as well as would be ideal while making a second attack somewhere completely different. I'd rather a plan that had the Allies only apply pressure, but better one pointless offensive than three.
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You did read through the previous updates, in which the Austrians are gradually thinning out defenses there, & you did read how the Austro-Russian force has & would double down on defending Vienna? Is it that difficult to understand that a strike on Vienna & from Italy at the same time would synergize?

"Much the same" assessment is mind-boggling when we'll throw away Italian & Spanish lives in greater droves instead of allowing them much greater chance of success by forcing Austria & Russia to go all-in Vienna.

Edi: I do think all voters want to go for Brno & Lvov should approval vote for a plan that doesn't have an Italian offensive at the same time (I think preparing for a knockout blow fits this?) - keeping in mind that the League has, could, & would likely take advantage (again) by launching an Austrian offensive while we're preoccupied in Bohemia & Poland.

I also advocate for Habsburg Delenda Est voters to consider approval vote for Operation Death Blow, because that plan focuses on building defenses & logistic connections in Poland, as well as reallocating troops to bolster the offensive to Vienna that occurs at the same time as an Italian offensive.
 
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It's also important to remember that Linz is actually a long way from Vienna. Google maps tells me they're 184 km apart in fact! So we have that far to go before we actually run into the heavy defenses people are so worried about. It's also important to note that Austrian fixed fortifications are actually kind of shit, as we found out in the first post of the war. So we'd be facing out-of-date fortifications when we have modern artillery, infantry mortars, machine guns and gunboat support. We are absolutely capable of winning battles against a numerically equal force in those conditions.

The reason we are unlikely to take Vienna this turn is not that we will be shoving our faces into a meat grinder, but rather that we have to win several battles and that takes time.
 
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[X] Plan: Case Vigo
-[X] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Lvov.
-[X] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Brno.
-[X] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to initiate a full offensive.
-[X] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] [MED] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.
 
I'm calling on Case Vigo voters to switch or at least approval vote-

[] Plan: Tightening the Noose
-[] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Lvov (Red).
-[] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Brno (Gold).
-[] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to put pressure on the League.
-[] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[] [MED] Ask the Allies to maintain the situation in the Mediterranean.

-which still goes for Brno & Lviv but doesn't throw away our allied troops' lives hy opting for Case Vigo's unsupported offensive into Alpine Austria.

I'm also calling on Habsburg Delenda Est votees to switch or at least approval vote-

[] Plan: Operation Death Blow
-[] [POLAND] Reallocate troops toward the Austrian front.
-[] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Vienna (Green).
-[] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to initiate a full offensive.
-[] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[] [MED] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.

-which beefs up the offensive to Vienna while not extending a salient to Lviv yet.

In fact,

[X] Plan: Tightening the Noose
-[X] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Lvov (Red).
-[X] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Brno (Gold).
-[X] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to put pressure on the League.
-[X] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] [MED] Ask the Allies to maintain the situation in the Mediterranean.

[X] Plan: Operation Death Blow
-[X] [POLAND] Reallocate troops toward the Austrian front.
-[X] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Vienna (Green).
-[X] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to initiate a full offensive.
-[X] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] [MED] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.

I'm fine with the outcome of either plan. Edit: I prefer Death Blow tho, because freeing up 3 milloon allied troops is an incredible advantage & we curb the risk of Austro-Russian offensive retaking Linz.
 
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[X] Plan: Tightening the Noose

[X] Plan: Operation Death Blow

[X] Plan: Habsburgs Delenda Est
 
IamtooSleepy said:
I can't speak for anyone else. but my hope for attack on Vienna is not actually for taking the city, but to force Austria to move their army away from Alpines front and lessen the risk on Italian and Spanish's offensive.
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Dalmatia is included in both Vigo and HDE pointedly to draw forces away from the other fronts and weaken their possible response forces there.

The same argument that could be made for why the Austrians would panic and put their forces in front of Vienna would apply here to, they're too worried about losing their capital to shift forces away from it, hell they might even try to expand the space they have to defend it ie another attack.

And, like, from our perspective we know we've been barely scratching at their defenses, but to the League it's been one of a literal handful of Ws they have acquired so they're going to be supremely confident that the allies are just all bark and no bite. They're not going to respond to an attack by the allies until they've already broken through the front because of what we tried the last time we asked our allies to skirmish with the Austrians.
 
[X] Plan: Tightening the Noose

[X] Plan: Operation Death Blow

[X] Plan: Habsburgs Delenda Est
 
Zero interest in not attacking Lvov this turn, especially if we're moving troops away from Poland instead.
 
[X] Plan: Case Vigo
-[X] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Lvov.
-[X] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Brno.
-[X] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to initiate a full offensive.
-[X] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] [MED] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.

[X] Plan: Tightening the Noose
-[X] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Lvov (Red).
-[X] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Brno (Gold).
-[X] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to put pressure on the League.
-[X] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] [MED] Ask the Allies to maintain the situation in the Mediterranean.
 
If the entire Austrian army wants to go stand in the Alps, let them. Most of the actually important stuff isn't in the Alps, and they can't eat the silver in the mines.
 
[X] Plan: Case Vigo
-[X] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Lvov.
-[X] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Brno.
-[X] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to initiate a full offensive.
-[X] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] [MED] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.

[X] Plan: Tightening the Noose
-[X] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Lvov (Red).
-[X] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Brno (Gold).
-[X] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to put pressure on the League.
-[X] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] [MED] Ask the Allies to maintain the situation in the Mediterranean.
 
Better not take our Allies for granted, nor give them reasons to feel resentful later. If they're attacking the Alps this turn, then we should support them by attacking both Vienna and the Dalmatian coast.

[X] Plan: Habsburgs Delenda Est
[X] Plan: Tightening the Noose
 
spiritualatheist said:
And yet we were able to encircle Prague just fine with a similarly narrow frontage.

We should also not forget our advantage in armaments—the Austrians don't yet have Maxim guns, or they haven't been mentioned so far, plus we have infantry scale mortars and river artillery support. The idea that this will be a hopeless meat grinder is unfounded considering our success against similar fortifications, and our generals aren't going to feed soldiers into one of there isn't a hope of victory. It has been etranger's policy throughout the war that our commanders aren't idiots, and that will continue to be true here.
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Prague sit in the middle of the Czech plain. once we broke their border defenses where all the mountains had, we had more or less free reign of the area surrounding it. The same is definitely not true of Vienna, with our main approach through a valley and our forces in Prague far off and exposed to strikes on their flank from Brno.

We definitely have an advantage in armament and we will probably prevail anyway, at massive human and material costs. But I'd rather make that a moot point and I don't think taking a turn to secure Brno and connecting our fronts is a huge ask.

SilentSpaniard said:
Better not take our Allies for granted, nor give them reasons to feel resentful later. If they're attacking the Alps this turn, then we should support them by attacking both Vienna and the Dalmatian coast.

[X] Plan: Habsburgs Delenda Est
[X] Plan: Tightening the Noose
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That's a good argument in favour of Tightening the Noose over Case Vigo. i'll include it and switch to it if it takes off.

[X] Plan: Case Vigo
[X] Plan: Tightening the Noose
 
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[x] Plan: Tightening the Noose
- [x] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Lvov (Red).
- [x] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Brno (Gold).
- [x] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to put pressure on the League.
- [x] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
- [x] [MED] Ask the Allies to maintain the situation in the Mediterranean.
 
[x] Plan: Tightening the Noose
- [x] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Lvov (Red).
- [x] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Brno (Gold).
- [x] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to put pressure on the League.
- [x] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
- [x] [MED] Ask the Allies to maintain the situation in the Mediterranean.
 
[X] Plan: Tightening the Noose
-[X] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Lvov (Red).
-[X] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Brno (Gold).
-[X] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to put pressure on the League.
-[X] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[X] [MED] Ask the Allies to maintain the situation in the Mediterranean.

Ah, whatever. This is fine as well.
 
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