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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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POSTSCRIPT
Even worse, the standard for True Love isn't touch, its touch with carnal intent. If the Whampire's Hunger isn't up or not interested, they're fine. That's why Dresden was able to live with Thomas for a year as his brother while still in love with Susan, and Thomas never got burned by even accidental touch.

And why IIRC both Lord Raith and Madrigal were able to manhandle Dresden even when he was protected by Susan's love.
 
uju32 said:
POSTSCRIPT
Even worse, the standard for True Love isn't touch, its touch with carnal intent. If the Whampire's Hunger isn't up or not interested, they're fine. That's why Dresden was able to live with Thomas for a year as his brother while still in love with Susan, and Thomas never got burned by even accidental touch.

And why IIRC both Lord Raith and Madrigal were able to manhandle Dresden even when he was protected by Susan's love.
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though items related to said true 'insert emotion here' can also have affect so wedding rings, etc etc. Though its only for specific individuals and if the item is you know important to them in relation to said emotion. So very niche.
 
firefrog600 said:
though items related to said true 'insert emotion here' can also have affect so wedding rings, etc etc. Though its only for specific individuals and if the item is you know important to them in relation to said emotion. So very niche.
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Now I'm picturing the reverse with a White Court decked out with various paraphernalia of unwise excess like they were Dungeons & Dragons enchanted equipment. Ten wedding rings from relations that ended messily due adultery on their fingers, a paperback tome of pickupartistry in one hand and one of the really weird porn mags from 1980s Germany in the other, a truly incandescent leisure suit...
 
Modus_Tollens said:
Now I'm picturing the reverse with a White Court decked out with various paraphernalia of unwise excess like they were Dungeons & Dragons enchanted equipment. Ten wedding rings from relations that ended messily due adultery on their fingers, a paperback tome of pickupartistry in one hand and one of the really weird porn mags from 1980s Germany in the other, a truly incandescent leisure suit...
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I bet at least one badly semi informed person in the some couple thousand years of the white courts existence has done something like grabbed dozens of wedding rings and charged into a fight with one of them. Then got absolutely decimated by said white court vampire. Though one sad thing at least one person has definitely gone to fight a white court lust vampire before thinking they have true love protection and didn't.

I'll note the true love has to be between equals so platonic love works but true love between a parent and child doesn't. True love between siblings does or between lovers but only equal loves. Just wanted to add that.
 
firefrog600 said:
I bet at least one badly semi informed person in the some couple thousand years of the white courts existence has done something like grabbed dozens of wedding rings and charged into a fight with one of them. Then got absolutely decimated by said white court vampire. Though one sad thing at least one person has definitely gone to fight a white court lust vampire before thinking they have true love protection and didn't.

I'll note the true love has to be between equals so platonic love works but true love between a parent and child doesn't. True love between siblings does or between lovers but only equal loves. Just wanted to add that.
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Molly turns 18 soon. Then project Harry Dresden can go underway.
 
[X] Plan Murder She Wrote
uju32 said:
Generally, I know it when I see it.

But broadly a large political entity with a significant membership size, the ability to project force and impose its will, territorial control and a coherent political policy that isn't just the profit motive.
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First, I want to note that "I know when I see it" is in general a very bad type of definition that leads to confusion. Secondly, the issue with the definition you are using is that both CIA, FBI, and police would be separate states under such definition. As would be each separate unions.

But ok, let's table this, it's not too relevant.
fictionfan said:
On the nation state question there is a different between the white court, fairy courts, Yomi or red court and that is escalation dominance.
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The big difference is also in territory. There are places which are settled by Winter / Summer / Yomi which are undisputed their territories. There is no land that White Court calls their own, where all others are guests.
uju32 said:
You might get a few initial successes but without major supernatural support, you lose the war.
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If this was so, involving mortals wouldn't have been considered a nuclear escalation. Humanity, if roused, can f*ck everyone up, even if it gets f*cked up in return. It won't just get rolled over.
 
Yog said:
If this was so, involving mortals wouldn't have been considered a nuclear escalation. Humanity, if roused, can f*ck everyone up, even if it gets f*cked up in return. It won't just get rolled over.
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Precisely this is considered a nuclear escalation precisely because it will fuck up whoever started it and also humanity, as many supernaturals need it to feed/survive/reproduce etc. Not that humanity itself will win the resulting war or be rolled over, just that the fight itself and its consequences are not worth it for anyone, except crazy people like Nicodemos and Nemesis.

In this USA versus White Court case, for example, if mortals don't have support from other supernatural powers they will lose, they may cause catastrophic damage in return, but they will lose. Wampires are inside their systems, they are masters of manipulation of information and popularity who can fuck their politicians, and all other advantages already mentioned. Also while the USA would be fighting them, their human political enemies (other countries) will also stab themselves in the back when they can and the other monsters that the wampires keep in check and out will cause even greater chaos as happened with the Formor and the Reds.

Of course everything is hypothetical as both would do anything to avoid such a scenario, together with everyone else.
 
uju32 said:
Possible but unlikely.

Nemesis might operate more cautiously, but it's not just gonna stop because of some risk . See the Fae in general and Winter Court in particular. Summer Lady Aurora's failure didn't stop it operating through Lea and going for Maeve. The discovery of the Leanansidhe's Nfection didn't stop it operating through Maeve and any other poor victims.

The loss of Lord Raith didn't stop it going for Vittorio Malvora. Nemesis is relentless that way.
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While it would not withdraw long term a span of days and weeks is nothing to the scale it works on. Hitting the big red pause button because it was just hit with a hammer made of Ancient Sorcery makes sense to Molly IC, though it is worth noting that this is an Exalt talking and they all have a mental bias in favor of their own importance since... you know God King powers.
 
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I think the fundamental point we're dancing around here with the nation state thing is if we consider the power structures of the supernatural legitimate or not.

The structure is just totem for that, and the underlying point of denying them that status implicitly seems to be to downgrade them to something that by rights should answer to people we like better and is wrong for not doing so regardless of any other factors.

For my part I'd say they're as legitimate in their power as any other group, even if I don't like what many of them do with it. They simply don't care to conform to the political environment of humanity at large, especially since many of them are personally older than the last few dominant political orders of the world.

If it suits the thread's sensibilities better we could call them nations that aren't states, but the label doesn't change how they act or think.
 
[X] Mention that you have a connection to the highest levels of the White Court and your plan to reach out to Lara so that she can deal with the rogue elements
 
Yog said:
First, I want to note that "I know when I see it" is in general a very bad type of definition that leads to confusion. Secondly, the issue with the definition you are using is that both CIA, FBI, and police would be separate states under such definition. As would be each separate unions.

But ok, let's table this, it's not too relevant.
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1)*shrug* That's how a lot of things are.
I was referencing a former US Supreme Court judge talking about the difference between art and pornography.

2)The CIA, FBI and police aren't really independent political entities in and of themselves, even by that definition. They don't have policy, they carry out policy of the entity they belong to.
Organs of a nationstate, but not one themselves.

Yog said:
If this was so, involving mortals wouldn't have been considered a nuclear escalation. Humanity, if roused, can f*ck everyone up, even if it gets f*cked up in return. It won't just get rolled over.
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What @Azais said.

Humanity appears to form the base layer of this ecology. Everyone significant seems to have some relationship with them. Even those actors with no direct dependencies like the Bigfoot tribes have to reckon with the fact that the defenders of the Outer Gates are intertwined with Humanity at a fundamental level.

A war with Humanity damages most factions twice, both directly, and as a result of the damage that Humanity does to itself and suffers.


I mean, do recall that the existence of the supernatural and its interest in Humanity was regarded as a fact of nature by most of the world until relatively recently. And significant chunks of Humanity still believe, from Iceland to eSwatini.

DragonParadox said:
While it would not withdraw long term a span of days and weeks is nothing to the scale it works on. Hitting the big red pause button because it was just hit with a hammer made of Ancient Sorcery makes sense to Molly IC, though it is worth noting that this is an Exalt talking and they all have a mental bias in favor of their own importance since... you know God King powers.
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Makes sense to Molly IC, sure.

OOC I'm not so sure. This might not even be Nemesis/He Who Walks Besides; we know that He Who Walks Behind and He Who Walks Before are also both Walkers who are also loose and active in the Tellurian, and there are probably even more that we haven't seen. The Demonreach invasion force in Cold Days came from somewhere after all.

Nemesis is just characterized as the greatest of them.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 17, 2023 at 9:39 AM, finished with 97 posts and 15 votes.
  • [X] Mention that you have a connection to the highest levels of the White Court and your plan to reach out to Lara so that she can deal with the rogue elements
    [X] Plan Murder She Wrote
    -[X] Use all applicable social excellencies
    -[X] Activate BSM
    -[X] Give a basic outline of the incident Molly encountered, but don't show her the body or give anything personally identifying up about Jackson.
    —[X] Additionally, avoid giving up details on how we're getting information.
    -[X] From that get into the plot we uncovered, and that a cabal of vampires are plotting a serial killing spree as a proof of concept for a greater purge of minor talents from the population.
    -[X] Outline our plan to try using a connection higher up in the court to resolve this before it explodes. Include some details on the issues obvious organized mortal involvement could cause.
    -[X] [Stunt] As she finishes sketching out the basic explanation, Molly meets Murphy's gaze. "Now this is the part where things get complicated" .
    —[X] " The victim here is a member of a sort of self defense group. Not anything assertive, just people with a little bit of magic looking out for each other." A grimace crossed her face as she continues " People with just a little magic are nearly the bottom of a very literal food chain, and it can be hard for them at the best of times."
    —[X] Something cold began to deep into her voice, tinged with that immovable resolve she reaches for when forced to take a life. " Which is why I joined."
    —[X] "Most things that go bump in the night and eat minor talents alive are remarkably unwilling to follow me down a dark alley"
    —[X] Sighing, Molly returns to a more normal tone "The guys doing this are a splinter group of the white court. Their politics can get … messy."
    —[X] " I have an understanding with some of their leadership, which I'm planning to draw on first. If we're careful this whole thing can be rolled up cleanly, if not this could get bloody fast"
    [X] Plan Murder She Wrote
    -[X] Use all applicable social excellencies
    -[X] Give a basic outline of the incident Molly encountered, but don't show her the body or give anything personally identifying up about Jackson.
    —[X] Additionally, avoid giving up details on how we're getting information.
    -[X] From that get into the plot we uncovered, and that a cabal of vampires are plotting a serial killing spree as a proof of concept for a greater purge of minor talents from the population.
    -[X] Outline our plan to try using a connection higher up in the court to resolve this before it explodes. Include some details on the issues obvious organized mortal involvement could cause.
    -[X] [Stunt] As she finishes sketching out the basic explanation, Molly meets Murphy's gaze. "Now this is the part where things get complicated" .
    —[X] " The victim here is a member of a sort of self defense group. Not anything assertive, just people with a little bit of magic looking out for each other." A grimace crossed her face as she continues " People with just a little magic are nearly the bottom of a very literal food chain, and it can be hard for them at the best of times."
    —[X] Something cold began to deep into her voice, tinged with that immovable resolve she reaches for when forced to take a life. " Which is why I joined."
    —[X] "Most things that go bump in the night and eat minor talents alive are remarkably unwilling to follow me down a dark alley"
    —[X] Sighing, Molly returns to a more normal tone "The guys doing this are a splinter group of the white court. Their politics can get … messy."
    —[X] " I have an understanding with some of their leadership, which I'm planning to draw on first. If we're careful this whole thing can be rolled up cleanly, if not this could get bloody fast"
    [X][stunt]"If you try use proper channels you are going to get a cease and desist order from [person who is being blackmail] or someone else in the police that they have influence on within the day.". At Murphy's look of surprise you say "I have been looking into the nature of their influence I don't really like the idea of my government and public institutions being run by vampires anymore then you do. But I want to pull the rug out all at once."
    [X][Stunt]"I am putting a lot of trust in you here. By telling you all this I am taking responsibility for your actions. It is very likely that the Court starts using their government assets since I did it first. Which means that I am likely on the run from the FBI very quickly."
    [x] Actually can I put a spirit in your phone? So long as you keep it with you it should warn me if you are being subverted somehow. Also you could really help me with the investigation. Also it would allow me to manage secure connections with you over the phone.
    [X] Mention that you have a connection to the highest levels of the White Court and your plan to reach out to Lara so that she can deal with the rogue elements
    -[X]On the pact if asked: I have no intention of trying to preserve it if they give me reason to consider it broken.
    -[X]"If you're going to ride with me on this, and even if you aren't, there's a very important question here. Is the Library of Congress a signatory to the Unseelie Accords? If you aren't aware of them they're basically the supernatural geneva convention. I only got through the main text recently so I haven't gone through the signatories yet."
    -[X]"If things go south and the Library isn't a Signatory, odds are you'll be considered an extension of me under chapter 3. I'm not a signatory right now but that doesn't mean it won't color their thinking. Meaning the White Court starts using its government assets because I did it first and it's completely possible I and maybe you end up a federal fugitive in the absence of allies with political capital to spend counteracting them."
    -[X]"The White Council may consider this matter of interest to them, but they're fighting the Red Court. I haven't called Harry on this yet"
    -[X]"Best case scenario they either punish the involved parties themselves or give us their blessing to hunt them down. Thoughts?"
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Does the default vote include anything on what to say about Jackson? Seems like an important aspect.

For that matter, since my vote also involves talking about Lara will parts of it get used or will we go without a stunt bonus since none of the plan agnostic ones got more than one vote?
 
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Arc 8 Post 8: Of Trust and Testimony
  • Threadmarks
    • Of Trust and Testimony ​

    9th of November 2006 A.D.

    There are two ways you could go about this, the noire way... and the actual common sense way. Much as it pains you to do so you don't start with 'there's a body in the trunk and it's going to take both of us to deal with it properly'. Instead you just give your account, detailed to the street name and the minute

    "I saw the shadows move strangely and knew something weird was going on, mortal magic flexes against the world when you cast it so a fire wizard would make candles flare, a lightning wizard would make the air smell of ozone, but it takes a lot to be visible far off even to someone like me..."

    She has her note pad and pen, looking no worse for wear for it being late evening after a long shift on duty, but you can sense she is waiting for the other shoe to drop.

    "The victim here is a member of a sort of self defense group. Not anything assertive, just people with a little bit of magic looking out for each other." Anger tickles the back of your throat, not white hot but there. " People with just a little magic are nearly the bottom of a very literal food chain, and it can be hard for them at the best of times. She god lucky... she got incredibly lucky to be able to get the vampire before it got her. Even though this was the least physically powerful sort, even though the first mental attack failed pretty much the only chance she had of getting out of there was throwing everything she had at him."

    "She?" The syllable is a little clipped, but not outright accusing. Detective Murphy is willing to extend some credit here.

    "She could really use her privacy right now. I got her account and an interview on some other stuff that may be connected," So saying you tilt your head in Clippy's direction.

    By way of answer Karin Murphy sighs and shakes her head, not taking her eyes off her notes. "And the perp?"

    "Dead, body's in the truck."

    That gets her to look up. Not so long ago that look would be having you spilling your guts so fast the words would come out smashed together, now you just explain: "He was killed and moved by telekinesis, no prints, no marks of any sort."

    "And the inside of your trunk?" She isn't writing things down anymore.

    "Is going to be cleaned with a flamethrower. Might make a Geiger counter blip a bit over the background for a few weeks if anyone waves one around inside but nothing forensics could pick up."

    As she puts her left hand to her temples to massage away the ache you resist the impulse to offer to realign her chi. "Play the interview please."

    Without prompting Clippy starts to play the file in question to which the detective listens carefully to the end. "Not good."

    Though you are quick to assure her 'the person in question' was being honest she shakes her head. "Not what I meant, she was jittery, still coming down from the adrenaline of the attack, scared half out of her mind. That is not a good state to get a statement out of someone if you can help it. It... reinforces biases."

    "What do you mean?" you ask, not a little intrigued. Not where you thought this night would be going.

    "There's not a single person out there that walks into an interview or interrogation without biases. If someone's emotional it's going to get you emotionally worked out so you are just going to go down whichever rabbit hole that is. What were you feeling when she finished?"

    Seeing no reason to lie you answer in the spirit it was asked: "A desire to go back in time and kill whoever did the King James Translation of the Bible, in particular Exodus 22:18."

    A sort of grim amusement glitters in her eyes for just a moment, but she keeps up the didactic tone: "So now you are going to be looking for fanatics who think it's 1692 and that is going to tilt the whole investigation in that direction."

    "Oh I know who is part of the plot on the White Court side of things at least," you assure her, rattling off all nine names as well as what you know about Madrigal and the Skavis scion.

    Now she's taken aback. "How...?"

    You wave your hand clockwise next yo your head. "Magic. Also internet searching."

    "Right, right... What are you planning to do with it?" Being honest with yourself it is pretty gratifying to have someone like detective Murphy assume you have a plan and that is something to take into account, even if judging by her expression, she is not at all set on this being a good thing.

    "I'm planning to call Lara Raith since I know she's not involved. She's..."

    "Their leader yeah, head of the families."

    After a bit of a double take and a silent staring game of you-know-I-know-you-know you explain why this is best kept as a matter internal to the White Court: they have the means to do it and the current regime is a stabilizing influence and overall the least predatory if the Vampire Courts compared to the Cocaine and Cthulhu of the Red Court, the violent isolationism of the Jade Court and the undead horror that are the remains of the Black Court. "I still think they are pretty terrible, but all of us play with the hand we've got not the one we wished we had." You sneak a smile thinking back to the look on not-Maeve's face. "Sometimes I get to deal a card from the bottom though."

    She taps her fingers on the dashboard for a few minutes. "These people aren't going to be able to stay holed out in their houses long term. If I had names for the 'self-defense' club I could put some people on alert, make sure calls are given priority, scare off any would be lunatics who fancy hunting witches if any of them are around. Conduct interviews..." She stops, obviously considering if she should consider. "Harry does this thing too where he thinks he can handle everything on his own because he is the wizard sheriff or whatever they call it, but there is one of him and this is a city. There is a reason we do not work off Old West rules anymore. He can be in only one place at one time and so can you. I'd like those names, please. I want to make sure these people are as safe as I can make them."

    What do you reply?

    [] Give her Anna's name and address, as the leader of the Ordo she would be the most trusted, but she is also rather.. prickly

    [] Give her Abby's name and address, she is friendly though a bit shy

    [] Give her Olivia's name and address, given her taxation without representation speech something tells you she'd be willing to recount everything she knows about the magical world on a dime

    [] Give her multiple names
    -[] All of them
    -[] Write in

    [] You cannot share any names with her at this time

    [] Write in

    OOC: Since you guys specifically allowed Dr Jackson to leave so she would not meet Murphy I chose to keep that one back.
     
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    • BronzeTongue said:
    Probably just a vampire out for lunch. If it was a white court op going after nemesis or something serious like that he wouldn't have come alone.
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    Meh, I'm a paranoid prick. It's my default personality when questing.

    You never know with these GMs man.
    DragonParadox said:
    "These people aren't going to be able to stay holed out in their houses long term. If I had names for the 'self-defense' club I could put some people on alert, make sure calls are given priority, scare off any would be lunatics who fancy hunting witches if any of them are around. Conduct interviews..."
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    As for Murphy's offer, well, I think it's best go with the chain of command here, however loose it might be.

    [X] Give her Anna's name and address, as the leader of the Ordo she would be the most trusted, but she is also rather.. prickly
     
    [X] Give her Olivia's name and address, given her taxation without representation speech something tells you she'd be willing to recount everything she knows about the magical world on a dime

    Olivia is actually more likely to talk to Murphy then she would to Harry.

    [X]Yog
    [X] Give her Anna's name and address, as the leader of the Ordo she would be the most trusted, but she is also rather.. prickly
     
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    [X] You cannot share any names with her at this time
    -[X] Earning the Order's trust was no small matter, so we won't risk damaging that by handing out their information without first learning whether they wish to share it. If they do, then we'll reach out and give Murphy the contact details for someone.
     
    [X] You cannot share any names with her at this time
    -[X] I'll bring it up with them, but this isn't something I should decide for them.
     
    I don't want to give all the names mostly out of a respect for privacy, but I strongly suspect that if we give Murphy one name she will get the others fairly quickly. She is a cop and most Ordo members don't have Exalted level willpower.

    I want to introduce her to Olivia because I expect it to put their interactions on the right foot. Olivia's taxes for protection idea is basically hitting Murphy's intimates buttons with a hammer.
     
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    [X] You cannot share any names with her at this time
    -[X] Earning the Order's trust was no small matter, so we won't risk damaging that by handing out their information without first learning whether they wish to share it. If they do, then we'll reach out and give Murphy the contact details for someone.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    What do you reply?
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    We shouldn't give their names to her without talking to them first at least. We don't actually have authority to make this sort of decision on their behalf, and they may have reasons of their own not to want to be on lists.

    Like say getting picked out by unfriendly eyes that get access to it later.

    They aren't aware of the particulars, but a relatively benign example would be the Library or Daedalus getting ahold of their names and showing up to recruit them. People like the pathfinders or even Madrigal's own plot would also be interested in information like that, and those two instances being cleaned up doesn't mean there won't be more later.

    That isn't to say we shouldn't arrange a meeting, but we should impress on Murphy the trust being extended here and convince one of the existing leaders of the Ordo to sit down with her as a step one.

    This is both a matter of respect and practicality. Without trust and basic understanding they're as likely to work at cross purposes as anything else.
     
    [X] You cannot share any names with her at this time
    -[X] Earning the Order's trust was no small matter, so we won't risk damaging that by handing out their information without first learning whether they wish to share it. If they do, then we'll reach out and give Murphy the contact details for someone.
     
    [X] You cannot share any names with her at this time
    -[X] Earning the Order's trust was no small matter, so we won't risk damaging that by handing out their information without first learning whether they wish to share it. If they do, then we'll reach out and give Murphy the contact details for someone.
     
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