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Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

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[X] Progressive Independents
-[x] Plan Socialism with German Characteristics
--[x] Support general lowering of taxation and tariffs to more sustainable levels.
--[x] Diplomatically reach out to Britain and France, assuring them of the incredibly peaceful intentions of the German Republic and hopefully establish trade agreements with both.
--[x] Open up the state owned industries and interested co-operatives to foreign investment from Spain, France and Britain through allowing purchase of minority shares.
--[x] Support establishment of regional banks in each district or region to provide loans to citizens seeking to establish new innovative co-operative enterprises or allow them to deposit savings.
--[x] Rationalize the current system of social security by transferring the duty of providing them to the unions and co-operatives, with the state supporting them through subsidies and tax breaks now.
 
darknessworld said:
The alternative is the destruction of the parliament as an institution.

We are a newborn republic born for a goal. If we fail it now, something else will take our place.
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the proindp are not gonna destroy the republic or parliament pls tone back the dooming.
edit: they aren't even gonna take power a cordon santire gonna form against them
 
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Woltaire said:
the proindp are not gonna destroy the republic or parliament pls tone back the dooming.
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If our institution aren't able to resist, after only 2 years, the forces that had between them those who wanted to roll back important parts of the constitution, then our still feeble rule of law may snap.

And if the institution of the parliament was the first to fall, then what can come after?
 
Woltaire said:
the proindp are not gonna destroy the republic or parliament pls tone back the dooming.
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I don't think they're going to destroy us the instant they gain power, but it's easy to see where the anger at them comes from. We're an explicitly socialist polity that has abolished private property and mandated worker control over the workplace. We don't even have a stock market! Having a plank to open up our industry to foreign investment is a huge issue because it's reintroducing private property and directly stealing profits from the workers who own our factories. Also a huge issue is appeasing France and Britain, who just finished doing crimes against humanity to us not five years ago in quest.

OOC, as well, the state of Germany is the result of a bitterly acrimonious civil war in the previous quest, which the socialists and radical republicans won against the monarchists and liberals and used that victory to create the constitution we have in game. The huge wave of ProgInds voting to roll back the socialist gains we have achieved feels like all of that is being made pointless.
 
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[X] Vanguard Communists
-[X] Ante-Bordigism
--[X] Introduce a national ration providing all persons within the Republic their guaranteed basic rights to food, clothing, and housing.
--[X] Establish the Karl Marx Canal Authority with the mandate and powers to review the Canal's plans and propose modernized design elements, and introduce modern labor-saving devices and labor processes to hasten construction and free up workers for reconstruction projects.
--[X] Establish municipal and district planning committees consisting of local and national political, and local worker, delegates to develop local economic plans in conformity with the national plan - such as it is - and to coordinate the efforts of local cooperative and state enterprises towards the accomplishment of the local and national plans.
--[X] Experiment with implementing labor vouchers, in the Ruhr Area as it was relatively untouched by the civil war, as a starting point (along with the national ration) for decommodifying the internal economy.
--[X] Establish a Continuing Committee of the International Socialist and Workers' Congress as a means of governing the activities of the Congress's members during the intervals between official Congress meetings. All activities, understandings and resolutions established and adopted by the Congress should be implemented in full by the Party as a whole.
 
[X] Progressive Independents
-[x] Plan Socialism with German Characteristics
--[x] Support general lowering of taxation and tariffs to more sustainable levels.
--[x] Diplomatically reach out to Britain and France, assuring them of the incredibly peaceful intentions of the German Republic and hopefully establish trade agreements with both.
--[x] Open up the state owned industries and interested co-operatives to foreign investment from Spain, France and Britain through allowing purchase of minority shares.
--[x] Support establishment of regional banks in each district or region to provide loans to citizens seeking to establish new innovative co-operative enterprises or allow them to deposit savings.
--[x] Rationalize the current system of social security by transferring the duty of providing them to the unions and co-operatives, with the state supporting them through subsidies and tax breaks now.

If for nothing else, "incredibly peaceful intentions of the German Republic" gets my vote. Absolute Gold.
 
Oh wait, a non-hyper vanguardist platform is winning? Hell yeah.
[X] Progressive Independents
-[x] Plan Socialism with German Characteristics
--[x] Support general lowering of taxation and tariffs to more sustainable levels.
--[x] Diplomatically reach out to Britain and France, assuring them of the incredibly peaceful intentions of the German Republic and hopefully establish trade agreements with both.
--[x] Open up the state owned industries and interested co-operatives to foreign investment from Spain, France and Britain through allowing purchase of minority shares.
--[x] Support establishment of regional banks in each district or region to provide loans to citizens seeking to establish new innovative co-operative enterprises or allow them to deposit savings.
--[x] Rationalize the current system of social security by transferring the duty of providing them to the unions and co-operatives, with the state supporting them through subsidies and tax breaks now.
 
A bit of sanity will do.

[X] Progressive Independents
-[x] Plan Socialism with German Characteristics
--[x] Support general lowering of taxation and tariffs to more sustainable levels.
--[x] Diplomatically reach out to Britain and France, assuring them of the incredibly peaceful intentions of the German Republic and hopefully establish trade agreements with both.
--[x] Open up the state owned industries and interested co-operatives to foreign investment from Spain, France and Britain through allowing purchase of minority shares.
--[x] Support establishment of regional banks in each district or region to provide loans to citizens seeking to establish new innovative co-operative enterprises or allow them to deposit savings.
--[x] Rationalize the current system of social security by transferring the duty of providing them to the unions and co-operatives, with the state supporting them through subsidies and tax breaks now.
 
spiritualatheist said:
The huge wave of ProgInds voting to roll back the socialist gains we have achieved feels like all of that is being made pointless.
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The problem, and why I'm worried, is what will happens if the institutions that came from the revolution may give the impression to our veterans that all the blood that was spent was pointless.

At that point, it isn't unlikely that some will think that, like, the normal people aren't ready for the revolution and only the decisive action of a small vanguard (to not be confused with the party we have) may save the spirit of the revolution.

I know that the Progressive Independist don't really want to destroy this democracy, but they represent an unexpected variable which can definitely be seen as a force of reaction by some, and our institutions may be still too young and weak to resist a powerful shift in power.

The problem is that this thing is happening too early.
 
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Rule 3: Be Civil - You are not Etranger, telling other posters to leave the Quest simply because they have different gameplay goals is not acceptable on SV.
It is ironic that ProgInd is held up as peaceful when other plans also maintain peace in Europe. Outside of the war now plan, nobody's pushing for war with our neighbours. We're all focused on rebuilding. This is just people deciding not to engage with the premise of the thread. They can't stand a socialist republic, so they've got to brigade the thread to get enough votes to gut it to sell out to Britain and France. They've got to break someone else's toy. Yeltsin's Russia here we come.

They also don't have enough votes to beat out the next three parties combined, but it's killed any dynamic coalition making.
 
So people think that Co-Operatives should not be allowed to engage in trade (so long labour laws are respected and the companies remain majority controlled by Germans.) Because...?

Shall we also enforce state-mandated production and introduce internal passports so that the workers don't make any choices that aren't approved of by the government?
 
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[X] Social Radicals
-[X] Revolutionary War Now!
--[X] Purge the Progressive Independents for being crypto-aristocrats!
--[X] Have our economic planners develop a Four Year Plan to double our military industry, massively expanding our production of guns, artillery, etc.
--[X] Begin a naval rearmament program, expand our ports and build more warships, with a focus towards creating a strong Baltic Fleet to counter Russia and Sweden.
--[X] Use the Labor Reserve to repair and expand our infrastructure, with a focus towards railways, roads and canals that are critical for military mobilization.
--[X] Liberate Switzerland. Use our new border with Italy to start smuggling weapons to Italian Republicans.

War? Yes war. Alas Comrade Random has shifted to another plan, but this will have to do. 😔
 
Something to point out is that the revolution was ultimately a coalition victory between the Socialists and the RadReps. Socialism is a major part of the current Germany and many fought for it, but it's not the only part, and not everyone did.

I'm not trying to make a value judgement here, I just want to point out that a successful ProgInd isn't necessarily spitting on the revolutionary ideals or anything. No one is looking to destroy or betray the republic or anything.
 
Mayto said:
So people think that Co-Operatives should not be allowed to engage in trade (so long labour laws are respected and the companies remain majority controlled by Germans.) Because...?
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That's completely disengenuous. The matter at hand isn't trade. We traded with Britain and France last turn. The matter at hand is the policy of opening coops up for foreign investment, which allows people not involved in the coop to reap profits from other people's work. It will impoverish our workers and recreate a class of compradors that we literally just fought a civil war against.
 
darknessworld said:
So, do we all agree to at least ban the progressive independents from future elections?
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Republicans when the republic doesn't vote in a way they like

But seriously? Going down this road already? This is sad. You can argue if ProgIndies have good ideas, but painting their intentions as antithetical to the Republic isn't healthy for anybody here. If you want to tun a purity terror, you should've killed all your opponents the first time around and spared us the democratic pretense.
 
Mayto said:
So people think that Co-Operatives should not be allowed to engage in trade (so long labour laws are respected and the companies remain majority controlled by Germans.) Because...?
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"Not engage in trade"??? What do you think is the engine of last turn's international commerce for Germany. That's right, co-ops alongside SOEs. ConSocs' & anarchists' plans literally advocate for trade at an expansive range, & the internationalization of coopeeratives. The main problem some have with the ProgInd plan is the entry of foreign stake into cooperatives' dividend payouts - diluting worker ownership.
 
A friendly reminder to not accuse people of brigading or otherwise denigrate someone's participation in the thread. Everyone here is equally welcome; there is no barrier for entry or any other requirement for voting. If you have an issue with what someone has said or done and you think it rises to the level of a problem, SV has standard reporting measures for you to use. Thank you.
 
Mayto said:
So people think that Co-Operatives should not be allowed to engage in trade (so long labour laws are respected and the companies remain majority controlled by Germans.) Because...?
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The issue is that we have abolished all forms of private property, that is, the ability to profit simply from owning something. Allowing foreign investors to own parts of our coops, even if they are restricted is reintroducing that idea into our laws and giving predatory British investors the ability to influence our internal economy.

Theaxofwar said:
Something to point out is that the revolution was ultimately a coalition victory between the Socialists and the RadReps. Socialism is a major part of the current Germany and many fought for it, but it's not the only part, and not everyone did.

I'm not trying to make a value judgement here, I just want to point out that a successful ProgInd isn't necessarily spitting on the revolutionary ideals or anything. No one is looking to destroy or betray the republic or anything.
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I can't speak for anyone else of course, but I don't have a problem with a successful ProgInd party as a concept. The issue I have is specific to the actual planks that people are voting for, namely to reject the constitution and dilute worker ownership.
 
[X] Progressive Independents
-[x] Plan Socialism with German Characteristics(More Deng Subvariant)
--[x] Support general lowering of taxation and tariffs to more sustainable levels.
--[x] Diplomatically reach out to the Americans in the interest of securing cooperation and at least mutual market access to provide workers with cheaper goods and secure areas of demand.
--[x] Establish the German Development Bank, The Export-Import Bank, and the Agricultural development bank to provide domestic financialization focused on the growth of the economy.
--[x] Support establishment of regional banks in each district or region to provide loans to citizens seeking to establish new innovative co-operative enterprises or allow them to deposit savings.
--[x] Establish and formalize a dual currency regime for the nation, with internal exchange occuring with paper marks while a separate gold mark is created for international exchange. Starting the steady modernization of the financial system to prepare it for the implementation of socialism.

Since it was said that splitting on planks doesn't reduce party power, I have decided to make a more Deng-like plank
 
[X] Progressive Independents
-[x] Plan Socialism with German Characteristics(More Deng Subvariant)
--[x] Support general lowering of taxation and tariffs to more sustainable levels.
--[x] Diplomatically reach out to the Americans in the interest of securing cooperation and at least mutual market access to provide workers with cheaper goods and secure areas of demand.
--[x] Establish the German Development Bank, The Export-Import Bank, and the Agricultural development bank to provide domestic financialization focused on the growth of the economy.
--[x] Support establishment of regional banks in each district or region to provide loans to citizens seeking to establish new innovative co-operative enterprises or allow them to deposit savings.
--[x] Establish and formalize a dual currency regime for the nation, with internal exchange occuring with paper marks while a separate gold mark is created for international exchange. Starting the steady modernization of the financial system to prepare it for the implementation of socialism.
 
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