The list counts as part of the Accords, the only reason they were broken up here is because researching the list would have taken a lot of time on its own, since you would have to look up each of them individually.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
The list counts as part of the Accords, the only reason they were broken up here is because researching the list would have taken a lot of time on its own, since you would have to look up each of them individually.
Duquette7
I am Fire, and I am Rain
And in general I agree with you on the strategic use of foci, the Accords themselves though are an outside case, they apply as a focus to such a wide range of figures, factions, and topics of interest that they are, I would argue, unique in the setting, and I would hate to burn them on a question we could ask Mabs shoes.
And here is where my lack of full comprehension bites me in the but. From my general understanding, the thread has been preparing for the confrontation by buying advantages charms, and working on maxing etiquette and empathy.
I realize that if the matter was left up to us we would only approach Mab from a much stronger position, and that some of the choices made in chargen left us rather unprepared for Dresden Files more nuanced setting, but given where we started when the meeting was forced on us, a not inconsiderable portion of the threads resources, and attention, has been spent preparing for this meeting. We also have a break glass option I understand of just bribing our way out of the confrontation using the gossamer we acquired. Now I don't want to be forced to use that here any more then you do, I imagine, but I personally would value the Accords as a focus higher then the gossamer as a resource, based on the breadth on what we could potentially do with it.
I would argue that there is no stronger focus in the setting then the Accords, based on that breadth alone, but given we are even having this discussion I assume we differ on that.
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OOC we know by word of the author of the Dresden Files that Molly was kidnapped on Mab's orders to advance some plan of hers.
- Location
- Germany
In canon that makes sense, since it ended with her as a viable candidate to become the Winter Lady.
But that would be very much derailed by now.
Mab wouldn't know that Molly would Exalt though, so she could have gone in with that plan and then it all went wrong.
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Why are we showing the accords to Murphy, like what is she going to do about it. Is she even allowed to read it.
I genuinely not getting why we are putting this much effort into Murphy beyond the point she is a canon character, she is just an average corrupt Chicagoan cop. Like she offers us no real value.
I genuinely not getting why we are putting this much effort into Murphy beyond the point she is a canon character, she is just an average corrupt Chicagoan cop. Like she offers us no real value.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
If accorded neutral ground doesn't even provide us any protection then we might as well have the meeting on any random place. It would also mean that we can provide our own Exalted level food.
- Location
- Terror Australis
She might think she does but Mab most likely doesn't.
Mab was ignorant enough to keep Usum with the Exaltation trapped in her ice garden, where she regularly tortures prisoners including mortal humans. That is just asking for something to go wrong and to get punched in the face with phenomenal cosmic power.
Pretty much what actually happend with Molly and Eldest Fetch.
Well it does provide you some protections, just not as many as if you did not have something stolen from Arctis Tor glued to your soul.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Hence the us in statement.
1)I read it.
Like @Azais said, by reading that passage in isolation from the rest of the statement, you're misinterpreting that quote badly.
2)Yes. IF.
Im not sure, and there isnt enough textev for me to be confident declaring its a definite thing.
The primary practical problem with everything you've suggested is that it assumes that Winter is passive and ignorant.
That the rest of the setting is passive and ignorant. And that other powers prefer the human Demon Emperor of a Hell to Winter's predictable structure, and would just standby and watch.
When the Reds poisoned Lea and through her Maeve, Winter's eventual response was to provide Dresden enough power to genocide the Red Court.
3)What an immortal, or even someone as old as Rashid, considers a major difficulty =/= what everyone else would consider major difficulty. And like I pointed out earlier, Rashid was explicitly doing his best to pump up Dresden's confidence during that entire scene.
4)I provided you a citation from the author of the series Jim Butcher, in explicit Word of Jim drawn from a repository on his own website. The characters arent infallible, but the author is supposed to be.
Unless they are documented to have changed their minds.
5)I will point out that the Summer Queen had no control over the choice of the last two Summer Ladies.
And in Cold Days, Mab's primary choice for Winter Lady was skipped as well. The idea we can swagger in and determine who gets to inherit the current mantles of the Courts seems implausible at best.
We're well into the region of you overestimating our current or future capabilities.
A situation where we could determine the effective CEOs of the Courts by repeatedly assassinating their executives with impunity is a situation where we dont have to, because we somehow conquered the world.
I read the passage. I just havent done the entire book yet. But in order:
1)I recall that they were supposed to be following a plan to wear Ethniu down enough for Dresden to imprison her on Demonreach, because they had no reasonable expectation of defeating her personally on the battlefield with the amount of power they were willing to deploy in Chicago.
So apparently, Mab pulling Ethniu's aggro was supposed to be part of the battleplan from the start.
If nothing else, it was Lara Raith that knocked the Eye of Balor out of Ethniu's head after Gungnir's backlash injured her enough to make it possible. Lara was only available to do it because she wasnt fighting the Fomor Army.
2)Ethniu was wearing Titanic Bronze armor.
Titanic Bronze's effectiveness as armor scales with the wearer's self confidence in a reinforcement loop. High self-confidence = Effective immunity to everything. Low self-confidence = much lower soak. So it probably seened worth it to Mab to arrange to risk herself as an attack on Ethniu's morale, in order to give other people a better shot at damaging the Titan.
When you consider that it was timed in conjunction with multiple heavyhitters showing up immediately afterwards,
It makes sense as a strategy.
3)I've said it before: Ethniu had Epic PvP gear in that mission.
Noone else did.
1)Ferrovax explicitly justifies his absence during the Battlegrounds battle by saying that if he showed up, he would fracture Reality.
And that so he'd be in the NeverNever, blockading the Ways to Chicago.
2)How would you tell if they were?
Most heavyhitters in this setting appear to be either shapeshifters, or wield abilities that can manage the same effects.
Angels appear as janitors in chapels, Denarians impersonate Vatican priests, senior Fae appear as randomass women, and Dresden has literally stood next to Odin in his Kris Kringle mantle and didnt realize it was the same person as Donar Vadderung until the dude as good as told him.
The first time we saw Ferrovax in canon, at Bianca's fancy dress ball in Grave Peril, he was dressed as a Roman centurion, and Dresden didnt have any idea who or what he was even when standing a couple feet from him.
That was in October, although a couple weeks before Halloween.
If we had BMI, we'd be able to do the same thing.
Ex-angel.
The amount of power the Fallen are allowed to wield through their hosts is limited, and loyal angels have similar limits.
I rather doubt that Mac is an exception.
Yeah. I was thinking she, her sister and the Mothers all have something similar, only that it prevents her being permakilled without particular conditions being met(Halloween, Stone Table, nemesis, superweapon).
This is my WAG, though.
I didnt say she was impossible to kill.
Im reasonably sure I remember something along the lines that most true immortals can be killed, but some of them, including important figures of the Fae Court, resurrect after some time. Permakilling them requires meeting conditions.
Fair enough.
No, that isnt true.
Street-tier vampires hardly exhibit fear of mortal society, Reds operate near-openly with impunity in Latin America, and the supernaturals post-Battleground dont appear all that afraid of mortal response to Chicago.
The Leanansidhe spent large parts of her time first hanging with teen Harry, and then training Molly after Dresden's death. Mab comes and goes at will. Aurora was living out of a Chicago hotel in Summer Knight. The Erl King literally leads the Wild Hunt through the Chicago area on Halloween at least twice that we know of, during Dead Beat and Cold Days.
I will remind you that the impetus for the current Unseelie Accords was an altercation between the then Summer and Winter Knights which escalated and vanished a major US city from Reality for several hours.
And that Nicodemus and his wife were allegedly responsible for the Black Death killing a third of Europe, at least according to Bob.
Humanity as a whole poses significant risk to supernatural society.
Butcher explicitly refers to humanity as the nuclear option.
But its worth remembering that noone wins nuclear war.
Humanity would be fucking itself over in such a situation, at least as much as the supernatural society.
This has nothing to do with the FDA and everything to do with self-interest. Dead clients are not repeat customers. Dead clients attract federal law enforcement attention and mass murder charges. Sure there are mistakes and shit, but drug deaths tend to be overdoses, or more recently, deliberate addition of fentanyl by retailers, not manufacturing issues.
Under the rules we're using, chances of rolling a botch, that is rolling 1 on a D10, is around 10%, before mitigation measures like spending WP for autosuxs. Thats a 10% chance of anything from making a batch of drugs that poison your clients to having the lab explode in your face. It is very much in the interests of the alchemist to avoid a botch.
The modern drug trade does much better than that up and down their production chain, and most poisonings appear to be due to deliberate adulteration at the retail end of the chain.
No, that wasnt the point.
Three Eye wasnt distributed for enlightenment; it used the mechanism of opening your sight to give you trippy visions a la hallucinogenics. Just like LSD, psilocybin and the like.
People popping hallucinogens are not generally hanging in places with mindwarping sights.
- Location
- florida
What kind of benefits might we get? If we have broken the accords already
You have not broken the Accords as you are not party to them, it's just that Mab as a signatory is not obliged to let you get home before challenging you to a duel if she is minded to. The Accords to not actually say 'stealing is wrong' since they do not make moral judgements, they lay out how one is permitted to react in Accorded Neutral Territory after having been stolen from. Even with that being said Accorded Neutral grounds are still good since you know that there are not enchantments being used, no compulsions, nothing that could directly impair your reason.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Bit less of a issue for Molly then anyone else.
- Location
- Germany
That's pretty much how I read it too.
I think it's not uncommon in Exalted that gods reform as long as they still have a sanctuary?
But that's what spirit-killers are for, so we don't have to bother with special conditions.
What irritated me is was the comparison to Sol Invictus, for whom Spirit-Killing Charms are barely relevant, because he is basically impossible to defeat in the first place, so nobody gets a chance to apply them.
Nobody in DF save maybe the White God has anything like that.
- Location
- florida
There are non magical ways to coerce people.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Are talking about nonmagical drugs because we would be providing the food or is this a complete non sequitur.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/They
Suddenly I'm a lot more curious about Marcone than I was.
Absolutely no idea where you're getting this from. There are no DxD-style angel/fallen/demon tripartite divides here; all fallen angels are demons (as in, specifically the hosts of Satan and the Christian Hell), and the Denarians are the only Fallen permitted to act on Earth without equal and immediate (non-retaliatory) counter (virtually always angelic, but- not sure about this bit- iirc non-Denarian demonic activity in the mortal world is one of the few things that at least theoretically could draw the direct, openly-miraculous intervention of the White God, should it be necessary).
Conversely, angels acting outside their limits theoretically permits and invites demonic counter- although the point is almost moot since an angel acting outside its limits would immediately Fall- and they have very different limits, mostly amounting to "acting on the direct orders of God", though these can be long-term standing orders like "defend the homes of the current and former Knights of the Cross".
If Mac has the nature of an angel, he's either angel or demon. If he's a demon, he's not generally permitted to be present on Earth, much less acting or employing supernatural powers there.*
Given the general "either party acting outside specific limits invites equal counter from the other" of angelic and demonic powers, I am reminded of "the Devil's greatest trick is convincing the world he doesn't exist", and wondering if Mac's presence being supernaturally-unquestioned-and-unnoticed is him making use of the opportunity so granted.
My understanding was the limit on Denarian power was more a practical one- "the amount of power the Fallen's hosts are capable of wielding without self-explodification or ceasing to be mortal (and thus a valid coin-bearer) is limited"- than regulatory.
I could be wrong, though; certainly when Michael received Uriel's grace in Skin Game, it was explicitly stated as "the power to unmake galaxies". Granted, it's not like the Denarians were archangels before they fell- Lucifer was the only archangel to Fall; see "the last time an archangel Fell, there were extended consequences" in the same scene- but. Hmm. Now I'm just not sure either way.
* Unless he's a Denarian, which I feel like someone would have noticed by now.
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Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
Which means that most neutral grounds are going to be hosted by upstanding gentlemen who are aware and capable enough to pinpoint such attempts. The "no outside food" and keeping us out of the kitchens is probably to reduce the temptation for anyone to fuck around and subsequently find out.
Not just in the sense of drugs or potions but in the form of entertainments that throw the other person off their game. An Exalted-class, 'hey check out my eleven successes' meal would have an effect on negotiations even if it doesn't do anything bad to you and isn't psychoactive. Or breaking out a decanter of Soma which would be theoretically positive and thus not a hostile act but which will take you on a ride. Or fey-food which may or may not be utterly conventional, may or may not have conceptual effects, but which also invokes that whole who-owes-who-a-debt thing that they tend to get saddled with.
And that last part is probably why Mac gave us a copy of the accord free of charge. If anyone pays for it that means that there is an implicit debt when a fey gets a copy, even if it was only a worn penny changing hands.
I'm very much in the 'never attempt to game the system' camp in regard to the accords. Full stop. The world is fucked up enough as it is and its one of the few things keeping it from being even worse, something I want to reinforce the legitimacy of rather than corrode.
Grigori still work for God but... are just kind of bad at it. They are working under flawed presumptions of what his plans are and end up exacerbating as many mortal problems as they smooth out, making things better only as an aggregate measured over thousands of years. Good and intelligent but not particularly wise.
So... kind of like humans or the most benign Exalted then. They aren't cast down so much as just being that embarrassing relative that never gets invited to parties.
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COMMENTARY
-Going to note that in the abbreviated DF RPG, its explicitly stated that shenanigans with regards to ANTs occur; I quote:
Paddy's Pub was the one that got blown up in the Bali Bombing in 2002.Dresden Files Accelerated p74 said:
-Hmm. Interesting. By the letter and spirit of whats been stated, Molly would appear to have an actionable grievance against Winter for the violation of her home, her kidnap and assault of herself and her brother if she was an Accord signatory, or had one willing to make a fuss on her behalf. Possi
She has Law 0, though Etiquette might be able to substitute.
- I doubt that Mab or Winter can make a legal claim on an Exaltation shard recovered from someone who had no right to it in the first place. Any more than she could make a legal claim on a Coin.
At best, she can claim storage fees.
Of course, that also requires some understanding of what the Exaltation is and its history.
Which Mab may not have and be arguing in good faith.
Or she might imply it while having no intention of making such a claim, but I dont know if Fae are allowed to dance that close to the line of true/false statements.
My inclination would be to say yes, because of the whole plot of Skin Game, but I am not sure.
-Legal ownership claims do tend to get fuzzy.
After Dresden attacked Lea in Grave Peril with Michael's Sword, Lea took Amoracchius and traded it to the Red Court for the athame. Despite Dresden having no legal claim to it in the first place. Which would imply finders keepers is in effect under some circumstances.
Its also strongly implied that the Blackstaff in the possession of the White Council is actually Mother Winter's walking stick that they
-Thats never stopped the Church before. They are observers at the UN for example.
The Church isnt a party to the Accords because they dont really wield supernatural power. Neither do most major faiths apparently.
The Knights and Swords, otoh, arent signatories to the Accords because they dont answer to local Powers, and local Powers acknowledge it, and that they are both predictable and honorable anyway.
They do often follow customs; Shiro explicitly mentioned fighting formal duels.
Interestingly, the Order of the Blackened Denarius are Accord signatories, and were until they flagrantly breached it in Small Favor.
Nicodemus Archleone and Anduriel are not.
We would be responsible for their security there as the host.
And they would have potential ground for grievance against us if they got attacked while guests at a location of our choice. If an infiltrator slipped something into the drink, for example.
See the entire plot of the Bombshells short story, where the Fomor were going to set off a bomb at a svartalfar diplomatic reception.
Hence a neutral place.
Implied, but not stated. Maeve could just as easily been responsible.
There's a bunch of things that remain unexplained in that book.
Dresden identifies MacAnally as a person with intellectus in Battle Grounds c3 before giving him the Christ artifact, and explicitly calls him an ex-angel in Battlegrounds chapter 4:
Battle Grounds c3 said:
Battle Grounds c4 said:
And Sharkface calls him Watcher in Cold Days chapter 22.
Angels are the only Dresden entities we've seen who can ID you beginning to open the Sight and care enough to stop you to prevent you damaging yourself. Another angel did it to Dresden in Ghost Story.
MacAnally repeatedly says He's Out in Cold Days when asked what he is. And he recognized the placard before anything was said.
So I think thats pretty conclusive
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That is... not conductive to those territories continuing to exist. Working on the concept that signatories are both inteligent and want these places to keep existing that cannot be how it works. If anything much like messangers they would have to be extra protected as they are the glue that allows the often fractious supernatural powers to meet and resolve their differences in ways that do not involve cities getting vanished witch is the purpose of the Accords.
- Location
- Germany
Not-so-wild theory time.
Mac claims he is out, but Angels are not Fey, he can lie.
We know from the last chapter that he deliberatly affects a personality that makes Harry feel at ease, and we know from the chapter before that, that he has a perfect defence against dirt ongoing. Both of those might be minor things he has left from when he was a full angel, or it just might be minor expressions of power from someone who still has his full arsenal and is just not showing it.
My guess would be that Mac is absolutly not reitred, he's just hanging out in Chicago to keep an eye on an important nexus of events and possibly on people who might one day save the world, like Harry.
Mac is an active Watcher and the reason he doesn't act openly is a mix of the usual angelic restraint when interacting with reality, both for the sake of free will and to avoid diabolic freedom of action in turn and on the other hand it's him being relativly undercover.
Mac claims he is out, but Angels are not Fey, he can lie.
We know from the last chapter that he deliberatly affects a personality that makes Harry feel at ease, and we know from the chapter before that, that he has a perfect defence against dirt ongoing. Both of those might be minor things he has left from when he was a full angel, or it just might be minor expressions of power from someone who still has his full arsenal and is just not showing it.
My guess would be that Mac is absolutly not reitred, he's just hanging out in Chicago to keep an eye on an important nexus of events and possibly on people who might one day save the world, like Harry.
Mac is an active Watcher and the reason he doesn't act openly is a mix of the usual angelic restraint when interacting with reality, both for the sake of free will and to avoid diabolic freedom of action in turn and on the other hand it's him being relativly undercover.