Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I was just reading though the sidereal charms.

Quickly tugging on a string of fate, the Sidereal palms and pockets her target's name. Not only does she learn the individual's true name, but while she holds onto it no one save the Exalt can think or speak it. System: The Sidereal's target must be within arm's reach. Roll Dexterity + Larceny against a difficulty of the target's Willpower rating. The Sidereal can keep hold of her target's name for (Essence rating) days per success.
This charm is so much more powerful in DF where if you have their true name you can even compel angels and other supernatural at the top the heap.
 
This charm is so much more powerful in DF where if you have their true name you can even compel angels and other supernatural at the top the heap.
I'm not sure, if it has been stolen to the point that nobody can even think of it anymore, it might count more as the target having NO true name which might be used to compel them, not even by the temporary holder.
Great as a protective measure against a foe that learned an ally's true name, but not that much for controlling an enemy. Unless you still remeember the name after the charm's effect passes.
 
I'm not sure, if it has been stolen to the point that nobody can even think of it anymore, it might count more as the target having NO true name which might be used to compel them, not even by the temporary holder.
Great as a protective measure against a foe that learned an ally's true name, but not that much for controlling an enemy. Unless you still remeember the name after the charm's effect passes.
Sidereal charms tend to be more reliant on the flavor text and the storyteller interpretation on average. The system text for the charm says about nothing, but how to activate it and how long it lasts. So when I say that it is a super powerful charm in DF that depends on interpretation. A ST could say that the charm doesn't do anything, but force a target to keep mispronouncing their name for the duration. But they can also say that they charm makes the target your effective slave. The variance is huge.
 
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Why are we talking like these two options are mutually exclusive, when the correct answer is "both?" Or am I missing something?

Also, carve his name onto one of the new defenses. People who die protecting our own should be remembered in its defense.
 
Why are we talking like these two options are mutually exclusive, when the correct answer is "both?" Or am I missing something?

Also, carve his name onto one of the new defenses. People who die protecting our own should be remembered in its defense.
The second option is more about Molly spending extra time to upgrade the defenses (time we don't have because of the agreement we made with Odin). The first seems more about shifting culture in a useful direction which is why I wrote a stunt trying to inspire them to work on the defenses and for the humans in the group to strengthen the threshold.
 
Can we help the soul of the person who died transcend? Or instead find their fetter and ask them to help us in exchang for transcending?
 
Can we help the soul of the person who died transcend? Or instead find their fetter and ask them to help us in exchang for transcending?
Sure that's mostly a matter of social checks. But Lydia is likely to be better at it. She should also be able to force the issue with Rest-Granting Strike.
 
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Can we help the soul of the person who died transcend? Or instead find their fetter and ask them to help us in exchang for transcending?

If you can see them and interact with them yes, though it comes with the caveat that many ghosts, the ones that are proper and complete souls do not want to transcend, like those people at the amusement park they are content where they are. Eventually everyone passes on, but eventually can last a long time.
 
If you can see them and interact with them yes, though it comes with the caveat that many ghosts, the ones that are proper and complete souls do not want to transcend, like those people at the amusement park they are content where they are. Eventually everyone passes on, but eventually can last a long time.
So ghosts are not Dresden files ghosts in this continuity at all? Can we assume that's changed events of past books?
 
So ghosts are not Dresden files ghosts in this continuity at all? Can we assume that's changed events of past books?

There is an entire ghost informational post and no I did not change things I expanded on it. Consider Ghost Story. Sir Stuart did not spend his three centuries in the material world because he was desperately looking for a way to transcend, it was because he wanted to guard his descendants. Walk up to him now and ask him if he wants to move on and he will say no thanks.
 
There is an entire ghost informational post and no I did not change things I expanded on it. Consider Ghost Story. Sir Stuart did not spend his three centuries in the material world because he was desperately looking for a way to transcend, it was because he wanted to guard his descendants. Walk up to him now and ask him if he wants to move on and he will say no thanks.
I more meant how most ghosts are psychic emanations not the souls of people. Are most ghosts now souls cause that has terrible implications?
 
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I more meant how most ghosts are psychic emanations not the souls of people. Are most ghosts now souls cause that has terrible implications?

Not all of them are blatantly so, those are the ghosts we see in the early books, but in Ghost Story again we see Sir Stuart among others being a fully realized person who takes a job for Uriel, the same job he offered Harry who was certainly a soul because he was shoved in his body.
 
Not all of them are blatantly so, those are the ghosts we see in the early books, but in Ghost Story again we see Sir Stuart among others being a fully realized person who takes a job for Uriel, the same job he offered Harry who was certainly a soul because he was shoved in his body.
Yes but are you making the majority or even a substantial amount of actual souls rather than psychic memories of a person? Heck it's even arguable that cognizant doesn't mean souled they are made from memories after all.

Edit: Chicago alone is chock full of ghosts if even a majority of those are people or a tenth that has horrifying implications in quest.
 
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Yes but are you making the majority or even a substantial amount of actual souls rather than psychic memories of a person? Heck it's even arguable that cognizant doesn't mean souled they are made from memories after all.
  1. No, the post was talking about transcendence, someone that is not sentient cannot transcend
  2. The implications of creating entirely new Pseudo-souls stuck in limbo are metaphysically convoluted as they are unpleasant
 
  1. No, the post was talking about transcendence, someone that is not sentient cannot transcend
  2. The implications of creating entirely new Pseudo-souls stuck in limbo are metaphysically convoluted as they are unpleasant
Nah I'm just asking in general rather than in response to the question sorry. I'm just worried that if even more than a tenth are souled ghosts. Then well that's pretty horrifying for the setting. There are plenty of horrifying things already.
 
  1. No, the post was talking about transcendence, someone that is not sentient cannot transcend
  2. The implications of creating entirely new Pseudo-souls stuck in limbo are metaphysically convoluted as they are unpleasant
Also I mean it's canon as far as we know that most ghosts aren't the actual souls of people. If they're made from memories I don't see why as it's been said that they could do stuff like conversation.
 
Nah I'm just asking in general rather than in response to the question sorry. I'm just worried that if even more than a tenth are souled ghosts. Then well that's pretty horrifying for the setting. There are plenty of horrifying things already.
Why?
Is it so weird that many, if not most souls hang out on earth/in the Shroud for a while before eventually moving on?

It would just be a natural part of the lifecycle, only that it happens after what we traditionally call life is already over.
 
Why?
Is it so weird that many, if not most souls hang out on earth/in the Shroud for a while before eventually moving on?

It would just be a natural part of the lifecycle, only that it happens after what we traditionally call life is already over.
I mean for one that's not canon its probably safe to assume that not all the beliefs of mages are utter bullshit. Also it's not most there are less ghosts than there are dead in Chicago at least even if there are thousands.

Also because the life of a ghost is dangerous and plenty of them go insane or are harmed by those that have.
 
I would say you get quite a lot of sentient ghosts in societies that expect them, like those which practice ancestor worship. Those would also skew towards benevolent spirits.
I mean yeah plenty of sentient ghosts. But, I would at least assume that not everything wizards say is bullshit and most ghosts are in fact memory stuff rather than souls. Also sure on the spirits that probably skews recordings of cases like a lot of things.

Especially since there are wizards and stuff who have messed with souls their own or others that would actually know this.
 
Considering Molly very much knows the White God exists, that prayers have power, AND her perspective via Lydia, I'd say she would at least want to include some proper Christian burial rites and prayers.
By rights, souls of our minions are ours, not White Gods. The order of claims probably goes like this: Molly, their ancient demon god ancestor (who might or might not be dead and might or might not be eating their souls), whatever their actual religion is, White God.

[X] A eulogy, you have not known him long, but for that time it seemed to you he was doing the best he could with what life had dealt him
-[x] Leadership and empathy excellencies while wet.
-[X] Using your best, carve a memorial for him and your future fallen comrades. He is the first of those who follow you that has fallen. He is unlikely to be the last, much as you want it to be not so.

[X] Action, you will make sure something like this cannot happen so easily in the future
-[X] Get some connectivity down there, so emergency-calls from a Cyberdevil are possible. Even if you personally have to drill to the surface to lay a cable.
-[X] Next step doors, defined thresholds and warding , that was propably part of the plan anyway, but now it becomes priority.
--[X] Hire Harry. Working together with him, Bob, and Lydia using occult and intelligence excellencies to craft the best damn wards there are
-[X] Consider plans for an actually secure panic-room in the Station, one that might work even against enemies near your caliber, though don't look that one in yet, depending on how much money and effort that would take.
-[X] Ask Porter if he has any ideas or requires any help to prevent something like this from happening again.


So, changes:
1) Wards are for Harry. He is good at wards. And we can help him. Order are minor practitioners. This is way above their capabilities.
2) It's Porter's home, even if we are slowly taking over. He was defeated and driven away. The least we can do is make him something.
3) A memorial for all the fallen in our service. I think it's a good idea to have one.
 
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By rights, souls of our minions are ours, not White Gods. The order of claims probably goes like this: Molly, their ancient demon god ancestor (who might or might not be dead and might or might not be eating their souls), whatever their actual religion is, White God.

[X] A eulogy, you have not known him long, but for that time it seemed to you he was doing the best he could with what life had dealt him
-[x] Leadership and empathy excellencies while wet.
-[X] Using your best, carve a memorial for him and your future fallen comrades. He is the first of those who follow you that has fallen. He is unlikely to be the last, much as you want it to be not so.

[X] Action, you will make sure something like this cannot happen so easily in the future
-[X] Get some connectivity down there, so emergency-calls from a Cyberdevil are possible. Even if you personally have to drill to the surface to lay a cable.
-[X] Next step doors, defined thresholds and warding , that was propably part of the plan anyway, but now it becomes priority.
--[X] Hire Harry. Working together with him, Bob, and Lydia using occult and intelligence excellencies to craft the best damn wards there are
-[X] Consider plans for an actually secure panic-room in the Station, one that might work even against enemies near your caliber, though don't look that one in yet, depending on how much money and effort that would take.
-[X] Ask Porter if he wants a war body or some armor or something like that made.


So, changes:
1) Wards are for Harry. He is good at wards. And we can help him. Order are minor practitioners. This is way above their capabilities.
2) It's Porter's home, even if we are slowly taking over. He was defeated and driven away. The least we can do is make him something.
3) A memorial for all the fallen in our service. I think it's a good idea to have one.
I'd assume given metaphysics there would be a choice involved for those who still sorta qualify as humans. Not a knowing choice mind you just a choice somewhere.

Could be as fucked up a choice as if you eat someone even once your doomed to said ancestors domain.
 
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Also I mean it's canon as far as we know that most ghosts aren't the actual souls of people. If they're made from memories I don't see why as it's been said that they could do stuff like conversation.
Exactly what a soul does or how it relates to personhood is undefined in both real life and DF. However it is certainly clear that you don't need a soul to do stuff like conversations look at chatbots.

Maybe ghosts don't have 'souls' and are a collection of memories, but are still people. Or maybe they have souls, but are still not considered people. Any definition of personhood is an arbitrary distinction of things that we assign having intrinsic worth. Maybe you based that on someone having the ability to change their opinion based on conversation. Maybe you base it on them pinging on the soul detector. Maybe you base it on them acting in a way that can be influenced by reward and punishment.

I personally follow the reward and punishment definition because there is no point in being nice to things that don't care.
 
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