Remove ads

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Reader mode
fictionfan said:
Exactly what a soul does or how it relates to personhood is undefined in both real life and DF. However it is certainly clear that you don't need a soul to do stuff like conversations look at chatbots.

Maybe ghosts don't have 'souls' and are a collection of memories, but are still people. Or maybe they have souls, but are still not considered people. Any definition of personhood is an arbitrary distinction of things that we assign having intrinsic worth. Maybe you based that on someone having the ability to change their opinion based on conversation. Maybe you base it on them pinging on the soul detector. Maybe you base it on them acting in that can be influenced by reward and punishment.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean I'm not personally arguing for personhood so much as so many wizards clearly believe that ghosts aren't the souls of people or at least the vast majority aren't.

Which given their history with the sight, the fact that there have been those who can both see ghosts, those who manipulate souls their own and others, necromancers, and contact with beings who should know these things. That the official consensus is most ghosts aren't souls probably isn't something wizards just pulled out of their ass and ran with.

That or there is a conspiracy which you know I guess could be true given it's Dresden files.
 
Last edited:
Artemis1992 said:
With a power that stopped him from approaching the Akuma.
Nothing that arms or armor could help against.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Fair point, changed the vote. The point still stands, though.
firefrog600 said:
I'd assume given metaphysics there would be a choice involved for those who still sorta qualify as humans. Not a knowing choice mind you just a choice somewhere.

Could be as fucked up a choice as if you eat someone even once your doomed to said ancestors domain.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Indeed. It's probably something like that.

@DragonParadox do we have anything of the rune caster valkyirie to use as a focus? Recordings from hotel's security cameras ' traffic cameras? Runes she made in combat? bodies of people / akuma she killed (or at least photos of said bodies)? Her own photo? Or did we miss the chance to get anything?
 
Artemis1992 said:
What about societies where ghosts are not exaclty part of the faith, but definitly an extremly common supersstition?
Propably even more so in DF than IRL.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Less common than in the case of ancestor worship but still more in proportion to how common the superstition is. Unlike with ancestor worship though these ghosts do not have consistent culturally relevant fetters so they tend to pass on faster. Sir Stuart is a remarkably stubborn fellow to have lasted as long as he did.
 
firefrog600 said:
I mean I'm not personally arguing for personhood so much as so many wizards clearly believe that ghosts aren't the souls of people or at least the vast majority aren't.

Which given their history with the sight, the fact that there have been those who can both see ghosts, those who manipulate souls their own and others, necromancers, and contact with beings who should know these things. That the official consensus is most ghosts aren't souls probably isn't something wizards just pulled out of their ass and ran with.

That or there is a conspiracy which you know I guess could be true given it's Dresden files.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A lack of official consensus in DF is not surprising. Even the White Council doesn't go for standardized education in general. With a subject as emotionally charged as souls I would expect there to be multiple conflicting stories all over the place depending on how people want to treat ghosts.
 
Yog said:
Fair point, changed the vote. The point still stands, though.

Indeed. It's probably something like that.

@DragonParadox do we have anything of the rune caster valkyirie to use as a focus? Recordings from hotel's security cameras ' traffic cameras? Runes she made in combat? bodies of people / akuma she killed (or at least photos of said bodies)? Her own photo? Or did we miss the chance to get anything?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You have recordings yeah.
 
fictionfan said:
A lack of official consensus in DF is not surprising. Even the White Council doesn't go for standardized education in general. With a subject as emotionally charged as souls I would expect there to be multiple conflicting stories all over the place depending on how people want to treat ghosts.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In fairness we've not gotten that and I'm sure plenty of those desperate would choose to believe said ghosts are souls since you know emotional vulnerability.
 
DragonParadox said:
You have recordings yeah.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nice! I assume there are some recordings of einherjaren too.

I propose we investigate how mortals are empowered. We have whampires, ghouls and a valkyrie as examples of direct human empowerment. Both whampire and ghoul power breeds true, which is impressive. In case of ghouls it doesn't even have a figleaf of "free" choice between mortal and supernatural like whampires and changelings have. You just have a super-powered puberty. So, I want to ask some questions related to that. It might help us when making fomori later.
 
Yog said:
Nice! I assume there are some recordings of einherjaren too.

I propose we investigate how mortals are empowered. We have whampires, ghouls and a valkyrie as examples of direct human empowerment. Both whampire and ghoul power breeds true, which is impressive. In case of ghouls it doesn't even have a figleaf of "free" choice between mortal and supernatural like whampires and changelings have. You just have a super-powered puberty. So, I want to ask some questions related to that. It might help us when making fomori later.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That is curious well there could be more to ghoul stuff than is apparent. I think ghouls have a soul in canon so no idea if there really is no choice. We at least know that most ghouls we see are some form of half breed descendants from the totally non human types. The choice could just be utterly horrific of suffer not eating and die or eat and embrace your nature. No way it's an easy choice to stop especially since it's not like young ghouls are raised in an environment that would make them choose the former. We know ghouls can choose not to eat humans just uh their diets already suck choosing not to eat what's in front of you must be hellish. I know our eventual wish charm is gonna be stupidly useful in providing basically near infinite replenishing food.
 
Last edited:
Good night guys, see you tomorrow as Molly has an eulogy for a ghoul and then explains to her parents the plan to redeem a demon god. Also the government shows up with vampire containment gear on Harry's doorstep.
 
[X] A eulogy, you have not known him long, but for that time it seemed to you he was doing the best he could with what life had dealt him
-[x] Leadership and empathy excellencies while wet.
-[X] Using your best, carve a memorial for him and your future fallen comrades. He is the first of those who follow you that has fallen. He is unlikely to be the last, much as you want it to be not so.

[X] Action, you will make sure something like this cannot happen so easily in the future
-[X] Get some connectivity down there, so emergency-calls from a Cyberdevil are possible. Even if you personally have to drill to the surface to lay a cable.
-[X] Next step doors, defined thresholds and warding , that was propably part of the plan anyway, but now it becomes priority.
--[X] Hire Harry. Working together with him, Bob, and Lydia using occult and intelligence excellencies to craft the best damn wards there are
-[X] Consider plans for an actually secure panic-room in the Station, one that might work even against enemies near your caliber, though don't look that one in yet, depending on how much money and effort that would take.
-[X] Ask Porter if he has any ideas or requires any help to prevent something like this from happening again.
 
I personally don't have that much hope for the redemption plan. I mostly agreed to it in order to maximize our odds of saving our people.
 
@Yog
Why take Harry's time for the warding, he propably has a lot of other things to do.

The Ordo Lebes helps out with this kind of thing as their basic function and they have already proven that they can utilize our Essence in their workings.
 
DragonParadox said:
"Yeah he's agreed to hold them... He's sure... That's right lesser, I have Harry's conformation and..." she looks over at you and Lydia, not quite sure if she should be giving teenagers as her sources, but eventually she does so.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Anyway, this is really encouraging. This means that LoC knows the difference between lesser and greater akuma, and that they are self-conscious enough to know they can't hold a greater one.
Artemis1992 said:
@Yog
Why take Harry's time for the warding, he propably has a lot of other things to do.

The Ordo Lebes helps out with this kind of thing as their basic function and they have already proven that they can utilize our Essence in their workings.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ordo Lebes is, at best, a neighborhood watch level supernatural organization. The warding we need is somewhere between "active military base" and "Pentagon" defense level. Order of Cauldron is way out of their depth here. Hell, they don't even have Summoning, Binding and Warding path practitioner among them. They almost certainly have never worked with dragon lines, or with spirits of Porter's magnitude.

Harry, on the other hand, is the person who crafted one of the best wards in the city. And by spending an action point, we get to improve even those. This has double benefit of improving Harry's defenses and ours.

Basically, while the Ordo members might be willing to help, they are not qualified to do so.
 
Yog said:
Anyway, this is really encouraging. This means that LoC knows the difference between lesser and greater akuma, and that they are self-conscious enough to know they can't hold a greater one.

Ordo Lebes is, at best, a neighborhood watch level supernatural organization. The warding we need is somewhere between "active military base" and "Pentagon" defense level. Order of Cauldron is way out of their depth here. Hell, they don't even have Summoning, Binding and Warding path practitioner among them. They almost certainly have never worked with dragon lines, or with spirits of Porter's magnitude.

Harry, on the other hand, is the person who crafted one of the best wards in the city. And by spending an action point, we get to improve even those. This has double benefit of improving Harry's defenses and ours.

Basically, while the Ordo members might be willing to help, they are not qualified to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

They most certainly have not worked with dragon lines for the same reason your local electrician does not try to build their own nuclear power station, they do not have the tools to build the tools to work with that, or for that matter the manuals on how this stuff works. That said they do have one talent with the sheer channeling capacity that she could work with ley lines in Maria.
 
Should we come clean about eating that guy's soul during our conversation about redeeming Emma-O?

Seems like the kind of thing Micheal would be concerned about.

It's not a conversation I'm looking forwards to, but if we run around eating souls and he finds out later it could get awkward at the very least.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Should we come clean about eating that guy's soul during our conversation about redeeming Emma-O?

Seems like the kind of thing Micheal would be concerned about.

It's not a conversation I'm looking forwards to, but if we run around eating souls and he finds out later it could get awkward at the very least.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

For what it's worth Molly isn't very comflicted about that one given what that soul had become and what its fate would have been has she not consumed it.
 
DragonParadox said:
For what it's worth Molly isn't very comflicted about that one given what that soul had become and what its fate would have been has she not consumed it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That makes sense, I didn't really get the feeling that she was from the story either.

Still seems reasonable to assume she'd know Micheal might have something to say about it, and that hiding it could go poorly.
 
Vote closed, we are going to me moving relatively fast through this one so we can get back on track.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Apr 11, 2023 at 6:37 AM, finished with 74 posts and 12 votes.
  • [X] A eulogy, you have not known him long, but for that time it seemed to you he was doing the best he could with what life had dealt him
    -[x] Leadership and empathy excellencies while wet.
    -[X] Using your best, carve a memorial for him and your future fallen comrades. He is the first of those who follow you that has fallen. He is unlikely to be the last, much as you want it to be not so.
    [X] Action, you will make sure something like this cannot happen so easily in the future
    -[X] Get some connectivity down there, so emergency-calls from a Cyberdevil are possible. Even if you personally have to drill to the surface to lay a cable.
    -[X] Next step doors, defined thresholds and warding , that was propably part of the plan anyway, but now it becomes priority.
    --[X] Hire Harry. Working together with him, Bob, and Lydia using occult and intelligence excellencies to craft the best damn wards there are
    -[X] Consider plans for an actually secure panic-room in the Station, one that might work even against enemies near your caliber, though don't look that one in yet, depending on how much money and effort that would take.
    -[X] Ask Porter if he has any ideas or requires any help to prevent something like this from happening again.
    [X] Action, you will make sure something like this cannot happen so easily in the future
    -[X] Get some connectivity down there, so emergency-calls from a Cyberdevil are possible. Even if you personally have to drill to the surface to lay a cable.
    -[X] Next step doors, defined thresholds and some warding (Call on Cauldron, you are a member opening a new safehouse), that was propably part of the plan anyway, but now it becomes priority.
    -[X] Consider plans for an actually secure panic-room in the Station, one that might work even against enemies near your caliber, though don't lock that one in yet, depending on how much money and effort that would take.
    [X] Write in. Head to your base and take the time to craft a small token to remember him by. Place it in an area set aside. He will be remembered in this way.
    [X] Action, you will make sure something like this cannot happen so easily in the future
    -[X] Get some connectivity down there, so emergency-calls from a Cyberdevil are possible. Even if you personally have to drill to the surface to lay a cable.
    -[X] Next step doors, defined thresholds and some warding (Call on Cauldron, you are a member opening a new safehouse), that was propably part of the plan anyway, but now it becomes priority.
    -[X] Consider plans for an actually secure panic-room in the Station, one that might work even against enemies near your caliber, though don't look that one in yet, depending on how much money and effort that would take.
    [X] A eulogy, you have not known him long, but for that time it seemed to you he was doing the best he could with what life had dealt him
    -[x] Empathy excellency while wet.
    [X] Write in. Head to your base and take the time to craft a small token to remember him by. Place it in an area set aside. He will be remembered in this way.
    [X] A eulogy, you have not known him long, but for that time it seemed to you he was doing the best he could with what life had dealt him
    -[x] Leadership excellency while wet.
    -[x][stunt]"Adam had the right idea when setting up defenses. In fact they likely would have worked against most low level supernatural threats. Unfortunately when it comes to the higher level stuff the most effective defenses require a threshold to work. Which only happens when humans are about a place and considering it a home. I realize that most of you don't have any skills in home improvement, but every little bit of time and effort you put into making this place nicer and more of a place that people want to live the safer it becomes, also be careful about invitations.". Looks over at the ghouls and white vampires "Actually that only applies to the pure humans in our group. It is something of a subtle ability they have. Unfortunately all you can really do is improve on the defenses Adam made and help the humans of our group feel more at home. Sorry to say that currently I can't provide that much in the way of protection. Only revenge."
Click to expand...
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top