Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Okay, so after asking Yrs and checking the math, Isolation IV is currently (5/8) instead of (6/8). Getting 1+ XP can still help us push it to Isolation V within the next two turns, IMO.

[X] Speak on the nature of power, of the innate ambition of dominance and command that underlies Sovereignty (Additional Exploration and XP to Power Concept)

Eh, im fine with both... but power is just 1 xp away from a rank up.

Power III is getting a rank-up already. Paying Respects gives the +1 XP it needs to rank up to Power IV.
 
[X] Speak on the nature of isolation, of the innate division between things, of the lonely void that grew with each realm. (Additional Exploration and XP to Isolation Concept)
 
[X] Speak on the nature of isolation, of the innate division between things, of the lonely void that grew with each realm. (Additional Exploration and XP to Isolation Concept)
 
I want to talk about the nature of Power to a guy who dedicated his life to reform before ultimately deciding that the Empire can't be reformed
 
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Feb 25, 2023 at 10:18 AM, finished with 110 posts and 72 votes.
 
I don't really see the point of going for isolation?

I look at it from this perspective: passiveness versus activeness. Passive is going for isolation, for coming to terms with a problem. Active is going for Power, for understanding how a sovereign commands the world and how Ling Qi can break the idea that a cultivator needs to isolate themselves...
 
Okay, so after asking Yrs and checking the math, Isolation IV is currently (5/8) instead of (6/8). Getting 1+ XP can still help us push it to Isolation V within the next two turns, IMO.



Power III is getting a rank-up already. Paying Respects gives the +1 XP it needs to rank up to Power IV.
well, now, i totally forgot that.

[X] Speak on the nature of isolation, of the innate division between things, of the lonely void that grew with each realm. (Additional Exploration and XP to Isolation Concept)

May LQ keep her mortal sensibilities!
 
[x] Speak on the nature of power, of the innate ambition of dominance and command that underlies Sovereignty (Additional Exploration and XP to Power Concept)
 
I don't really see the point of going for isolation?

I look at it from this perspective: passiveness versus activeness. Passive is going for isolation, for coming to terms with a problem. Active is going for Power, for understanding how a sovereign commands the world and how Ling Qi can break the idea that a cultivator needs to isolate themselves...
Our Isolation concept is pretty explicitly about opposing and countering it, not accepting it.
There are no passive options, only different ways of being active.
 
[X] Speak on the nature of isolation, of the innate division between things, of the lonely void that grew with each realm. (Additional Exploration and XP to Isolation Concept)
 
Jiao:
For every fabulous there must be an anti-fabulous.
Diao Luhwen:
* INCANDESCENT WITH RAGE AND INDIGNATION *
FIX. THIS. NOW. DESTROY IT.
Jiao:
That's not very punk rock of you.
 
[X] Speak on the nature of power, of the innate ambition of dominance and command that underlies Sovereignty (Additional Exploration and XP to Power Concept)

Since we are 1 away from a level up, broadening our understanding of power is fairly prudent, I suppose.
 
I certainly didn't expect the most imperial aligned and the most staunch supporter of Shenhua, the Jia have a Cai loyalist faction, to be a student Multitude Huiseng.
The Jia Patriarch is the Orator, who inspired the people to unite under Shenhua to fight back against the Hui. I wonder what insights he got out of his time with Huiseng.

I thought the student of Huisheng was the Meng patriarch guy who died fighting the Hui in the last climactic battle?
 
[X] Speak on the nature of isolation, of the innate division between things, of the lonely void that grew with each realm. (Additional Exploration and XP to Isolation Concept)

I prefer Isolation since we already have a reasonable answer to Sovereignty in Expression IV (though she hasn't realized it yet).

[X] Speak on the nature of power, of the innate ambition of dominance and command that underlies Sovereignty (Additional Exploration and XP to Power Concept)

However, I'm also voting for Power too because of my hopes that she'll accept Shenhua's concept of Power. Shenhua defines Power as the ability to effect and resist change, both on the people and the world around you.

Ling Qi blinked, taken aback by the question. "I'm not sure you can say it is any one thing. It can be strength of the arm, the charisma of a leader, wealth, the will of many coming together. Can you really say its only one thing?"

Shu Yue rubbed their fingers together thoughtfully, it made a dry, dusty sound.

"A better answer than most would give," Shu Yue said. "But you err."

"How so?" Ling Qi asked, crossing her arms.
"Power is all the things you describe and more, but that does not mean they are not without commonality. Let me give you a small insight, a word passed from my Masters ears and now to yours," Shu Yue said.

"Power is the ability to effect change."

The world, or maybe her vision darkened, the shadows of the garden pooling deeply, a chill wind blowing.

"Power has no morals, no justice. It is not good or evil. It does not corrupt, nor purify. What a person is with power is only themself, given the opportunity to do as they please. It allows one to effect or resist change, to push the world forward or back."

It really fits LQ's idea of Power, that everyone has worth and Power, and that there are different types of Power. Everyone has worth because they can effect change on some scale, and there are different types of Power because there are different ways to effect change. It also fits with greater cultivator theory from the King of Explorers interlude.

It is true that the energy we call qi is the fundamental building block of our world. In the first realm, we learn to feel and manipulate it. In the second, we learn to begin empowering our flesh and spirits with the energies of the world. In the third, we begin to wield it in truth, gaining a grasp for the manipulation of the world around us through the alteration of energy and material. I would quibble on some details, but the foundational theory is mostly correct.

Where I find myself in disagreement is their theories on the middle dantian and shen energy. As I have heard it, the leading position is that shen is an energy wholly derived from potent cultivators and spirit beasts through which their will is imprinted upon the world, which is composed of the lesser energy, qi. This is why conflicts between those of the fourth realm and above so easily alter or scar their surroundings. Shen, the scholars posit, is a semi-divine energy, existing above the base mortal world, the first step toward wielding the power of the Great Spirits. This is why it allows us to escape the shackles of the world and fly or alter the workings of the systems around us in ways beyond the brute force of the third realm.

This is wrong. Shen exists in the world around us, not merely as a side effect of potent spirits, but as another fundamental aspect of the material world. All forms of material and energy are qi when broken down to their fundamental state, but during my time under Guru Abhinavagupta, a man of great renown in the west, I have come to understand shen's existence in the world.

Men, beasts, and spirits change the world by exerting their will, their shen, upon it, this is true, but the world changes itself. We are not not as separate from material cycles as many would like to think. Shen is the energy of laws and reactions. When you strike flint to make fire, this is a miniscule application of shen. The patterns of winds which derive the weather is an application of shen. Shen is not the winds and rains themselves, of course, but the fundamental logic which drives them.

This is the source of shen's potency and power when used in mortal hands. It overrides qi because qi operates as it does thanks to the laws and reactions imposed upon it by shen. Now you may argue, is what I just described not the provenance of the third dantian? Sovereignty, Law, Truth - whatever you wish to call it?

I would answer that it is, and that imagining those things to be a third source of energy rather than a refinement of shen is the greatest failing of Imperial qi theory. Of course, the truth is that sovereignty is really just a difference of power. If it is said that a fourth realm wields Law as a mortal would a sharp rock, then it may be said that an Eighth Realm wields it as a shaped cudgel.

Power is Shen, the ability to effect or resist change. Everyone has Power, and Sovereignty is simply refined Shen. To Lig Qi, this will be Power = Choice, as Erebeal said earlier. If Power allows you to effect change onto the world around you, then it gives you Choice, since you choose how you effect the world around you. If you don't have Choice, you don't have Power, since you can't choose what you can do. Then Protection will have a clearer definition, in that defending people's Choice defends their worth and ability to effect change, which is pretty big for LQ since she wants her people to grow and develop. This can also tie into stuff like Void (Sacrifice). Choice = Power, so taking away or giving up Choice gives Power.

Anyway, this all depends on Xin knowing that sweet, sweet cultivator lore from Zheng Lu's letters and on LQ accepting some form of Shenhua's definition. Since it needs a certain number of things to happen, I'm not ranking it higher than Isolation. But maybe the first point won't need to happen? Again, as a spirit, Xin has a different system of ranking up, so she may view Sovereignty differently than most cultivators.
 
To Lig Qi, this will be Power = Choice,

I hope this isn't the case? It's a very fragile formulation, because...

If you don't have Choice, you don't have Power, since you can't choose what you can do.

While this is true, the reverse is not. Powerless people still make choices. They don't matter to anyone but the chooser, but they still exist and are made. So power cannot be the same thing as choice.
 
...another thought:

Isolation is what makes power dangerous. Unconnected means not having anyone to empathize with, both with power and with the lack of it, so there's a thought that isolation comes from power differentials getting too great and breaking communication...

Anyways. Not being able to communicate, or to be honestly communicated too, is when you get abuse of power, I think.
As much as that can be true in some cases, it doesn't seem like something Ling Qi would consider relevant.

Ling Qi is painfully aware of power causing problems by people who were not isolated from their targets.

Okay, so after asking Yrs and checking the math, Isolation IV is currently (5/8) instead of (6/8). Getting 1+ XP can still help us push it to Isolation V within the next two turns, IMO.

Power III is getting a rank-up already. Paying Respects gives the +1 XP it needs to rank up to Power IV.
First off, it's not worth microoptimizing for exactly when our concepts level up.

More significantly ... do we actually have reason to believe that higher concept levels are more useful than more overall concept levels (assuming concepts we actually use of course)? Because if not, "always pick the lower-level concept" is the ideal mechanical decision. Since concept XP requirements use Fibonacci numbers, it quickly reaches a limit of φ=~1.62x better per level lower, or only ~62% as good per level higher.

(Since we do keep Power fairly close behind (the current difference of about a whole level is a bit of an aberration since Isolation has pulled ahead of Community) I'm not arguing too strongly that we "must" pick Power, but more arguing against that we "must" pick Isolation)
 
On an unrelated note to the vote, I'm going to push back against Shen Yue's proposition that "Power is the ability to effect change."

While this framing of power is, I think, useful for Ling Qi as a springboard for her own contemplations on the subject, it suffers from a fatal flaw. That flaw is that it came from Cai Shenhua, the Tyrant of Progress. When considered from this angle, the roots of the proposition, and its faults, come into focus.

There can not exist an ideal world for Cai Shenhua that doesn't involve change. There must be change, there must be progress, and Cai Shenhua derives her power from that seed. And in this way, the proposition is blinded to forms of power that are antithetical to change. The power found in stagnation.

Take, hypothetically, a cultivator who embodies stagnation. Who seeks nothing more than to be left alone to sit, unchanging, until the world itself ends. They cultivate to this end, setting up a spot where they impose their will on their speck of territory to make it unchanging. And they succeed. The world around them never changes, perfectly still. They never change now, also perfectly still. Time does not flow through the area, and no one can even communicate with anything within. Perfect stagnation.

Under the proposition "Power is the ability to effect change," this hypothetical cultivator would have been very powerful when setting up this area, as they were changing the natural laws to better reflect the cultivator's ideal. But after, when complete stagnation was achieved and the cultivator lost even their own ability to change, are they still powerful? Under the above proposition, they would not be. They would, in fact, be powerless since they have no ability to effect change.

But is this true? Clearly not. This hypothetical cultivator may be useless, fruitless, and without merit, but they are powerful. Their very presence defies everything else until only stagnation remained.

So, while Ling Qi would never seek out sources of power that revel in stagnation, it would be a disservice to be blinded to those sources of power as well. There is certainly power in the ability to effect choice, but there is also power in its antithesis.
 
[X] Speak on the nature of power, of the innate ambition of dominance and command that underlies Sovereignty (Additional Exploration and XP to Power Concept)
 
Under the proposition "Power is the ability to effect change," this hypothetical cultivator would have been very powerful when setting up this area, as they were changing the natural laws to better reflect the cultivator's ideal. But after, when complete stagnation was achieved and the cultivator lost even their own ability to change, are they still powerful? Under the above proposition, they would not be. They would, in fact, be powerless since they have no ability to effect change.

I would agree that they are powerless if indeed time stopped flowing and they ceased being able to interact with the world. They were powerful, they spent their power changing the natural cyclical state of the world into something that never changes, and now they are powerless because they are isolated- no power can or will ever be exercised again.

But what of a super-powerful being who comes and attempts to change or break it, and fails? I would argue that rather than the original cultivator having more power than the being, the being becomes powerless in this area. That is to say, power is situational and not transitive.
 
[X] Speak on the nature of power, of the innate ambition of dominance and command that underlies Sovereignty (Additional Exploration and XP to Power Concept)
 
I would argue that stasis is change.
Yes, not in the usual sense of the word, but stasis is not natural state of things, to force something to not change, you have, effectively, changed it from what it would otherwise have been.
 
I hope this isn't the case? It's a very fragile formulation, because...



While this is true, the reverse is not. Powerless people still make choices. They don't matter to anyone but the chooser, but they still exist and are made. So power cannot be the same thing as choice.

It's just speculation for now, on how things could go, but my hope is that LQ accepts Power is the ability to effect change, and that it's somewhat related to Choice.

I ended up with Power = Choice because I'm not sure LQ would take Shenhua's insight word for word, and connecting it to Choice seems reasonable so far.

And while I agree that powerless people still make choices, they make them because they can't do anything else. LQ, for example, believes that she made the choices she made when she did when she was a street rat because she didn't have power or freedom. She was deprived of choices, so she acted the way she did.

As much as that can be true in some cases, it doesn't seem like something Ling Qi would consider relevant.

Ling Qi is painfully aware of power causing problems by people who were not isolated from their targets.


First off, it's not worth microoptimizing for exactly when our concepts level up.

More significantly ... do we actually have reason to believe that higher concept levels are more useful than more overall concept levels (assuming concepts we actually use of course)? Because if not, "always pick the lower-level concept" is the ideal mechanical decision. Since concept XP requirements use Fibonacci numbers, it quickly reaches a limit of φ=~1.62x better per level lower, or only ~62% as good per level higher.

(Since we do keep Power fairly close behind (the current difference of about a whole level is a bit of an aberration since Isolation has pulled ahead of Community) I'm not arguing too strongly that we "must" pick Power, but more arguing against that we "must" pick Isolation)

Earlier, I made a claim that Isolation was at (6/8) using before we got the XP from Paying Respects. But the math in the spreadsheet wasn't adding up so I went to check and confirmed that it's (5/8) after this action's XP. I was just clarifying so people won't vote on misinformation I accidentally spread, since some people are voting for Isolation to rank it up.

That being said, higher rank concepts are almost always better because they mean LQ had a greater understanding of them.

The second is the completion of Conceptual Projects, which replace Domain XP. Concepts are represented mechanically by a word and a roman numeral. The numeral indicates how integrated and well understood a concept is by Ling Qi, and how much more potent than baseline techniques utilizing that concept are for her. Concepts with a 0 beside them are available, but have not yet been studied.

And really, a Way built on low level concepts is very fragile because the concepts aren't explored fully. They may not be coherent and cause lots of heart demons.

On an unrelated note to the vote, I'm going to push back against Shen Yue's proposition that "Power is the ability to effect change."

While this framing of power is, I think, useful for Ling Qi as a springboard for her own contemplations on the subject, it suffers from a fatal flaw. That flaw is that it came from Cai Shenhua, the Tyrant of Progress. When considered from this angle, the roots of the proposition, and its faults, come into focus.

There can not exist an ideal world for Cai Shenhua that doesn't involve change. There must be change, there must be progress, and Cai Shenhua derives her power from that seed. And in this way, the proposition is blinded to forms of power that are antithetical to change. The power found in stagnation.

Take, hypothetically, a cultivator who embodies stagnation. Who seeks nothing more than to be left alone to sit, unchanging, until the world itself ends. They cultivate to this end, setting up a spot where they impose their will on their speck of territory to make it unchanging. And they succeed. The world around them never changes, perfectly still. They never change now, also perfectly still. Time does not flow through the area, and no one can even communicate with anything within. Perfect stagnation.

Under the proposition "Power is the ability to effect change," this hypothetical cultivator would have been very powerful when setting up this area, as they were changing the natural laws to better reflect the cultivator's ideal. But after, when complete stagnation was achieved and the cultivator lost even their own ability to change, are they still powerful? Under the above proposition, they would not be. They would, in fact, be powerless since they have no ability to effect change.

But is this true? Clearly not. This hypothetical cultivator may be useless, fruitless, and without merit, but they are powerful. Their very presence defies everything else until only stagnation remained.

So, while Ling Qi would never seek out sources of power that revel in stagnation, it would be a disservice to be blinded to those sources of power as well. There is certainly power in the ability to effect choice, but there is also power in its antithesis.

I think it fits because Shu Yue elaborated on what Shenhua's understanding of the concept means

"Power is the ability to effect change."

The world, or maybe her vision darkened, the shadows of the garden pooling deeply, a chill wind blowing.

"Power has no morals, no justice. It is not good or evil. It does not corrupt, nor purify. What a person is with power is only themself, given the opportunity to do as they please. It allows one to effect or resist change, to push the world forward or back."

Using that elaboration, someone with a way on stagnation still has power because they're resisting change and pushing the world back.

That being said, I do agree that it works well as springboard. As I said earlier in this post, I hope LQ takes that definition of power, but I think it's unlikely that she'll copy it word for word or take the same understanding as Shenhua.
 
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[X] Speak on the nature of power, of the innate ambition of dominance and command that underlies Sovereignty (Additional Exploration and XP to Power Concept)
 
LQ, for example, believes that she made the choices she made when she did when she was a street rat because she didn't have power or freedom. She was deprived of choices, so she acted the way she did.

So power leads to choice, in a similar way to her existing isolation leads to connection?

....hmmm. the more I think about it, the less I like that formulation of the insight. Isolation is like a loop where the only way out is connection, lessening isolation, but power is more like a filling cup spilling over into choice, both of them growing in tandem. I'll have to think about it more, I'm pretty sure there's something worthwhile here.
 
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