Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
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- Original Users' Choice!
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[X] Allow Inzha and Rostam to guide the conversation.
I feel like letting them guide the conversation can actually let Qi figure more about them than the other two options. Sometimes the best thing to do is listen for what someone says as well as not say.
I feel like letting them guide the conversation can actually let Qi figure more about them than the other two options. Sometimes the best thing to do is listen for what someone says as well as not say.
They may all be barbarians, but that doesn't mean that Shao & Co. are incapable of basic target recognition. They aren't morons, you know? The Western Territories also share a long border with the Thousand Princes and we haven't heard of there being any bloodshed. There probably has been a bunch of skirmishes, but we would have definitely heard if some random border conflict had escalated into a real war.
The Seared Lands and Pines's position in this negotiation is a weird one.
As I understood it, they are a frontier group that counts as both the easternmost WS and the westernmost SL, while still being their own thing?
They are meant to balance the interests of both groups, but they are here only as representatives of the east WS? The Pines should be the same, though it's implied they may care more for their Pines-Pines interests rather than their WS-Pines ones.
This has many implications.
First, the central WS should have the most weight in the Summit. Even if they still have to take the others' opinion in consideration, we are actually dealing only with the WS. At least in theory.
That means we can influence the true Seared Lands without directly dealing with them or having to listen to their demands.
On the other hand, the WS-Seared Lands may back out of or start bringing up "but"s on any deal we make as soon as they start representing the west Seared Lands instead of just the east WS.
It's pretty tricky. And so are the vote options.
[ ] Ask after what concerns them most about the contact situation
This option would allow us to learn what are their fears and try to reassure them.
Unless their fears are something legitimate we can't help with. In which case we'll just end up with a pretty awkward silence.
[ ] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here
We have already spent a great deal of effort on trying to avoid the Summit going badly. It may be time to find out what can we do to make people want it to succeed.
We can already kinda inferere it. Inzha looks invested in construction and formationwork. In particular, she seems very interested on spatial storage, which seems rare enough on their lands.
Now we have find out they have a economy very similar to the Golden Fields: resource extraction, stablishing settlements (with oasis), trade focused and so on. It's obvious how more wide-spread spatial storage would benefit them.
Even so, it would be good to get explicit confirmation. Specially because then we can hint at them that, yes, a friendly relationship with the ES may grant them access to spatial storage devices.
Spatial storage devices specialized in bulk transportation for trade purposes is just the kind of high-end, easy to transport goods we can commerce with immediately after a successful Summit. At least some samples so they can assess how good they are.
Maybe in exchange for some rare south-Sun Grave resources or for support against the Twelve Stars (which they already have problems with).
[ ] Allow Inzha and Rostam to guide the conversation.
The Mystery Box option. To find out what they want to find out is valuable in its own rigth.
We can determine if they are more doubtful or hopeful about negotiations depending if they bring up fears or gains.
Or they could bring up something else entirely. It may even be a boat!
They may also be pleased by a more deferential actitude. Though I doubt they will be offended if we lead here.
At the end, I don't want Ling Qi to surrender initiative here.
We already gave up a vote to explore the material wants of the WS's factions before. And we know we have a pretty good card to play in that front (spatial storage).
In light of that
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here
As I understood it, they are a frontier group that counts as both the easternmost WS and the westernmost SL, while still being their own thing?
They are meant to balance the interests of both groups, but they are here only as representatives of the east WS? The Pines should be the same, though it's implied they may care more for their Pines-Pines interests rather than their WS-Pines ones.
This has many implications.
First, the central WS should have the most weight in the Summit. Even if they still have to take the others' opinion in consideration, we are actually dealing only with the WS. At least in theory.
That means we can influence the true Seared Lands without directly dealing with them or having to listen to their demands.
On the other hand, the WS-Seared Lands may back out of or start bringing up "but"s on any deal we make as soon as they start representing the west Seared Lands instead of just the east WS.
It's pretty tricky. And so are the vote options.
[ ] Ask after what concerns them most about the contact situation
This option would allow us to learn what are their fears and try to reassure them.
Unless their fears are something legitimate we can't help with. In which case we'll just end up with a pretty awkward silence.
[ ] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here
We have already spent a great deal of effort on trying to avoid the Summit going badly. It may be time to find out what can we do to make people want it to succeed.
We can already kinda inferere it. Inzha looks invested in construction and formationwork. In particular, she seems very interested on spatial storage, which seems rare enough on their lands.
Now we have find out they have a economy very similar to the Golden Fields: resource extraction, stablishing settlements (with oasis), trade focused and so on. It's obvious how more wide-spread spatial storage would benefit them.
Even so, it would be good to get explicit confirmation. Specially because then we can hint at them that, yes, a friendly relationship with the ES may grant them access to spatial storage devices.
Spatial storage devices specialized in bulk transportation for trade purposes is just the kind of high-end, easy to transport goods we can commerce with immediately after a successful Summit. At least some samples so they can assess how good they are.
Maybe in exchange for some rare south-Sun Grave resources or for support against the Twelve Stars (which they already have problems with).
[ ] Allow Inzha and Rostam to guide the conversation.
The Mystery Box option. To find out what they want to find out is valuable in its own rigth.
We can determine if they are more doubtful or hopeful about negotiations depending if they bring up fears or gains.
Or they could bring up something else entirely. It may even be a boat!
They may also be pleased by a more deferential actitude. Though I doubt they will be offended if we lead here.
At the end, I don't want Ling Qi to surrender initiative here.
We already gave up a vote to explore the material wants of the WS's factions before. And we know we have a pretty good card to play in that front (spatial storage).
In light of that
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here
There is no reason to assume they are indifferent. By attacking the Cloud Tribes they can weaken the nascent Cai-Bai alliance and gain some good reputation. Starting a war with the Polar Nations does the opposite.
- Location
- Finland
It's not even indifference (though he is almost certainly indifferent).
More people to kill, possibly to eat, and then brag about, is to Sun Shao's advantage.
He does not care about pacifying the wall or protecting the empire, this is a power play, and more power he can show, the better.
You're thinking from the perspective of someone who values peace. Sun Shao does not. His mindset is dominated by a highly specific in-group vs out-group social filter combined with his every action being dominated by conflict and death as a driving force.
Attacking the Polar Nations is substantially little different from attacking the Cloud Tribes save in scale, and that's even more pronounced because the Emerald Seas would be dragged into allying with him by default due to the shared border with those powers
If Sun Shao can get away with it - and as a mobile, active White with guaranteed White level allies he absolutely could - then there is nothing but benefits from his perspective.
Conquerors are voracious, eternally starving creatures. Whether it's the Jungle or any other acceptable target, the perspective doesn't change. Only the means of succeeding or not.
And frankly the Thousand Princes would likely beat his ass like a drum if he were to try and invade, by virtue of forcing them to unite against him. And being the only Imperial Province bordering their territories. Stating his reluctance to drive west is indicative of him lacking drive is false. Sun Shao picks fights he can win and then commits to them. He would not be able to fight a peer polity to the Empire alone and thus does not.
Playing the hammer to the Cai clans Anvil is far far more manageable, especially with the various Sects having a number of Prisms available and invested in any such conflicts willing to back him should things come to that.
Would it mess up the Emerald Seas and ruin their ability to recover?
Sure.
But why would he give a shit about Cai Shenhuas well being? Or that of the Emerald Seas as a whole?
Fuck 'em.
Edit: Hell, theres tons of ways that forcing Shenhua to face tank the Polar nations at large while Sun Shao himself takes most of the glory serves to his active advantage. Not the least of which is completely fucking over one of the Bais direct allies amongst the Provinces, thereby weakening the Thousand Lakes own ability to recover their economic strength or set up their own port - a direct rival to one of Shaos own previously failed initiatives.
If Sun Shao successfully drags the Polar Nations into a war, hes absolutely the type to play it to his advantage and feel zero remorse for doing so. If anything he'd be smirking.
Gotta remember that "Protect Family; Fuck the Bai" are the overriding political goals of the Sun. Fucking over the Cai fucks over the Bai as well. It also fucks over the Xuan which bolsters the Jin - another Sun ally - and strengthens the maritime trade route that Sun Shao would be trying to set up (Jin ships to Western Jungle port) which in turn strengthens them both in a virtuous cycle to the expense of the Bai while helping solidify Sun Shaos own domestic position and letting the Jin launch more raids out west with impunity.
Its cascading plusses on a theater-class scale.
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That makes no sense at all... Sun Shao simply cannot drag the Emerald Seas into a war against the Polar Nations. You seem to forget that we have already opened diplomatic channels with the White Sky. The Emerald Seas would simply stay neutral and, unless the Polar Nations collectively took a complete leave of their senses, stay away from the war altogether. And the Polar Nations would have no reason to escalate a border conflict into a true Polar-Imperial war.
That's why I said this:
Which you shouldve addressed first before raising up your objections. Those things you're listing out?
To Sun Shao they simply are less relevant - if they are at all in the first place. Moreover, the Emerald Seas are already in a state of war, as acknowledged by the Imperial Throne. If the Polar Nations align with the Sky Tribes? Then nothing else matters. The Cai will assist the Sun in subjugating the related polities.
That kind of cooperation is the entire point of the Empire in the first place. And even if Shenhua tries to play the semantic games you're advocating, Sun Shao would force the issue anyway because that's what's best for his own forces. How would he do so specifically?
Theres plenty of ways. Not the least of which being an encouragement of the current status quo of Cloud Tribes and Ithi'la focusing entirely on the Emerald Seas, only now with the southerners joining in the fun. Chances are the Polar Nations would just hit the south of the province anyway because it provides the best possible vector to break through in terms of distance to cross and ability to meaningfully damage by virtue of the combatants already drawing the attention of the local forces.
The Empire is the Empire. The Sun and Cai are of the Empire. Not independent from it. The fact that the MoI rep already present takes a dim view of the already friendly proceedings as is should make clear what the Empires stance will be should these talks fail and the Polar Nations declare war on it.
In short? Sun Shao is entirely capable of dragging the Emerald Seas into such a war so long as the Empire itself backs him in doing so.
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- Location
- United States of America
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here.
Sure, but the Imperial Throne will not back them. The Empire didn't help the Emerald Seas or the Thousand Lakes to eliminate their troublesome barbarian neighbors despite thousands years of bloody border conflict. The Empire will only intervene in force if one of the provinces is on the verge of being destroyed. The empress and the great clans will have little interest in a large scale conflict with a distant barbarian polity.
And I'm pretty sure the Polar Nations know better than to actually ally with the Cloud Tribes and the Corpse Eaters. Why would they willingly put their proverbial dick in that kind of blender? It would be better to have a separate war with only one province.
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So, in terms of risk management, option 2 really helps. From the previous arc, we know the MoI are also concerned about information security, and don't want the White Sky to learn too much about imperial methods. They even assigned Wang Lian a minder for that.
We also know that the Seared Lands have some interest in geomancy and formationcraft. But we don't really know the specifics. So when it inevitably comes up (because I'm 70% sure it will come up), I really want to know what both sides want, so that we can juggle everything well, like we did recently.
Otherwise, we may run the risk of giving them too much and upsetting the MoI or giving them too little or giving them just enough, but not in the area of their interest.
For example, knowing the Luo and their heavy focus on contracts, we can guess that they'll want some way to hold the WS accountable. That's the broad strokes. However, we might do that and not satisfy them because they specifically want hostages or a foreign quarter.
So learning the specifics of what they want would really help with risk assessment and management during negotiations.
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here.
We also know that the Seared Lands have some interest in geomancy and formationcraft. But we don't really know the specifics. So when it inevitably comes up (because I'm 70% sure it will come up), I really want to know what both sides want, so that we can juggle everything well, like we did recently.
Otherwise, we may run the risk of giving them too much and upsetting the MoI or giving them too little or giving them just enough, but not in the area of their interest.
For example, knowing the Luo and their heavy focus on contracts, we can guess that they'll want some way to hold the WS accountable. That's the broad strokes. However, we might do that and not satisfy them because they specifically want hostages or a foreign quarter.
So learning the specifics of what they want would really help with risk assessment and management during negotiations.
[X] Ask after what they hope to see gained and done here.
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- Location
- Staring into the void
Oliver_Twister
Idea-Man, He Who Shits Ideas
- Location
- West Africa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
To be honest, I think Shao will attack the Cloud Tribes and the Polar Nation because of the lack of nuance in his Way.
His family and people are Us, and everyone else is Other. Even the Empire is Other, and just an avenue of support to fight a dangerous enemy.
He dislikes Empress Xiang because well, she's meant to support, but isn't helping them fight the main Other (the Bai). But he really can't rage against it because well, the wellbeing of his family, Us, is tied to their support.
But the Cloud Tribes and Polar Nation? They're an Other who he can freely attack, and they'll fuel his armies and people. Meat is meat is meat, and all that. If it fucks over the ES and thus the Bai, that's just a good consequence, not a deliberate effect.
His family and people are Us, and everyone else is Other. Even the Empire is Other, and just an avenue of support to fight a dangerous enemy.
He dislikes Empress Xiang because well, she's meant to support, but isn't helping them fight the main Other (the Bai). But he really can't rage against it because well, the wellbeing of his family, Us, is tied to their support.
But the Cloud Tribes and Polar Nation? They're an Other who he can freely attack, and they'll fuel his armies and people. Meat is meat is meat, and all that. If it fucks over the ES and thus the Bai, that's just a good consequence, not a deliberate effect.
That is literally incorrect.
The Throne did back the Emerald Seas. They just didn't send any material support, leading to what An and Jiao had to pull.
The Throne also helped with the Western Jungle - by backing Sun Shao and rewarding him with the title of King and censoring the Bai in his favor.
Political support doesn't equate to material support.
But that doesn't mean its irrelevant.