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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Ashmaker said:
Could we get this some other way? Like calling in favours or making an artifact of our own to gift them?
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No.

You cant have your cake and eat it. There's a significance to being the first choice that you can't completely replicate through some combination of other things. The closest you can get is the Hearth Guard getting the hammer after researching it, but as I said, the effects wont be the same as if you gave it to them first.
 
Yeah, makes sense. If we give it to someone we're basically affirming that they're one of our top priorities, whereas if we wait until we're able to make them ourselves there's notably less significance to the gift even if it's still just as useful for them. I'm still wanting to give it to Karstah though.
 
Just for the record, between spending Kraka Drakk favor and Karstah/Hearthguard actions, we have more than enough to get the university down to 1 action left on the earliest possible completion timeframe. We don't need anything else to speed things up for now.
 
Campaign] Continue the offensive. Campaign goes high level and my rolls will solely be for how things generally play out + Snorri fighting any heroes/big bads. After a city falls/you suffer a defeat, a similar vote will happen until you return home or all targetable cities are destroyed.
- [X] Against the Nurglish City

[X] [Various Bits] Give some to Karstah.
- [X] The Needle: While the needle never seems to run out of thread, that's only the case if the sewer in question isn't speeding through things, in which case they can indeed find themselves out of material.

[X] [Various Bits] Keep it. Onto the pile it goes. Gain Research.
- [X] The Drinking Horn: A constantly refilling horn of liquid? Useful. Novel. Blasphemous! Clearly, it uses magic, but who in their right mind would make sweet alcohol with merely magic?
- [X] The Cauldron Fragments: They appear to be pieces of several Cauldrons in varying states of deconstruction, some of which seem to constantly drip a particularly tasty broth without end. The imagery and aesthetics on the outside is markedly different, but from what the Brana have sniffed off it, these were likely the precursor to those wretched things the Fimir used to revive the dead and dying into monstrosities.

[X] [Hammer] Give it to someone else.
- [X] Clan Winterhearth: Your Kin. Such a gift? They will go above and beyond to see your dream come to fruition. Gain +1 action a turn towards Khazagar until its completion.

I think people underestimate just how big a deal a significant percentage of extra effort towards this Mega Project is, how it will benefit us in the medium and long term. It's worth more than a single Master Rune we can likely acquire elsewhere in my opinion.
[X] [Helmet] Give it to Karstah: your heir may have this helmet to do with as she wishes. Gain, bonus to research time if Hammer is also given to Karstah.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Campaign] Continue the offensive. Campaign goes high level and my rolls will solely be for how things generally play out + Snorri fighting any heroes/big bads. After a city falls/you suffer a defeat, a similar vote will happen until you return home or all targetable cities are destroyed.
- [X] Against the Nurglish City

[X] [Various Bits] Give some to Karstah.
- [X] The Needle: While the needle never seems to run out of thread, that's only the case if the sewer in question isn't speeding through things, in which case they can indeed find themselves out of material.

[X] [Various Bits] Keep it. Onto the pile it goes. Gain Research.
- [X] The Drinking Horn: A constantly refilling horn of liquid? Useful. Novel. Blasphemous! Clearly, it uses magic, but who in their right mind would make sweet alcohol with merely magic?
- [X] The Cauldron Fragments: They appear to be pieces of several Cauldrons in varying states of deconstruction, some of which seem to constantly drip a particularly tasty broth without end. The imagery and aesthetics on the outside is markedly different, but from what the Brana have sniffed off it, these were likely the precursor to those wretched things the Fimir used to revive the dead and dying into monstrosities.

[X] [Hammer] Give it to someone else.
- [X] Clan Winterhearth: Your Kin. Such a gift? They will go above and beyond to see your dream come to fruition. Gain +1 action a turn towards Khazagar until its completion.

I think people underestimate just how big a deal a significant percentage of extra effort towards this Mega Project is, how it will benefit us in the medium and long term. It's worth more than a single Master Rune we can likely acquire elsewhere in my opinion.
[X] [Helmet] Give it to Karstah: your heir may have this helmet to do with as she wishes. Gain, bonus to research time if Hammer is also given to Karstah.
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It actually kinda screws up planning and means that we need to adjust a whole bunch of stuff over the next five turns in order to not accidentally finish it. Not worth taking. Your Campaign vote is also broken.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
It's been awhile, could you please remind me of the significance of that?
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Basically the way plans are set up at the moment a combination of Karstah and Retainer actions pull it down to 1 action required to finish Khazagar on turn 52. This means doing a 5 action grandslam on Khazagar finishes the school, drops our first 5 action commitment on anything Ever on a Wonder (trait upgrade progress anyone?), and gives the school 9 to 14 overflow.

Also giving away the Hammer means that we can't research Everfrost, which is a very very solid lead to making a ice based Breath Weapon for the Dragon or making a very good combo for its Claws.
 
I think the most interesting thing to do with the hammer is to give it to the brotherhood of Dron. It would be giving research access to its members including ourselves as well as gaining a lot of favors to further our research.
 
BungieONI said:
Basically the way plans are set up at the moment a combination of Karstah and Retainer actions pull it down to 1 action required to finish Khazagar on turn 52. This means doing a 5 action grandslam on Khazagar finishes the school, drops our first 5 action commitment on anything Ever on a Wonder (trait upgrade progress anyone?), and gives the school 9 to 14 overflow.

Also giving away the Hammer means that we can't research Everfrost, which is a very very solid lead to making a ice based Breath Weapon for the Dragon or making a very good combo for its Claws.
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This is nothing against you, but I have to say this kind of attitude, and well the existence of long-term plans as a concept for a subgroup, really kills all vote involvement.

Because apparently at some point we've voted in secret what the plan for the next 5 turns is, with no deviations allowed, and collectively decides in advance that yes, 5 action grandslam on Khazagar finishes the school, drops our first 5 action commitment on anything Ever on a Wonder (trait upgrade progress anyone?), and gives the school 9 to 14 overflow is most definitely and certainly what we plan to do, and soulcake might as well not post about our options for votes at the end of updates because There Is A Plan and some inner voting block has decided that The Plan Shall Be Followed.

And any arguments or discussion to the contrary can be shut down by 'Oh, it would not be optimal'.

Again, nothing against you personally, but man what a way to instantly kill off all discussion and vote involvement.
 
SakSak said:
This is nothing against you, but I have to say this kind of attitude, and well the existence of long-term plans as a concept for a subgroup, really kills all vote involvement.
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Yeah, I generally dislike when there's some Discord chat group that's had all sorts of discussion *there* and then comes into thread and drops like 20 votes for some elaborate plan with zero discussion in thread. Makes for a bit of an uphill climb if you want to push for anything else when there's that already building bandwagon and you want to actually chat about things in thread and work out what's actually best. Doesn't help when some QM's will chat about what the voting options are going to be in advance on discord so they get extra time to plot it out before the thread gets the update either.
 
Eh, if their was a discussion over on the discord side, you could admittedly go and look at the discussion on said discord, or alternatively, ask some of the people on it, what they were discussing in the chat. As for planned actions, considering what kind of a hole we dug for ourselves by not trying to set up any plans on what we should focus on, I'll think I'm staying on the planned actions till something throws a curve ball on our plans.
Sides, we've already going into AP hell for the next 20 turns, with most of them as chain actions, so I doubt we have any need to fight about our focusing our attention for the next couple of decades.
 
SakSak said:
This is nothing against you, but I have to say this kind of attitude, and well the existence of long-term plans as a concept for a subgroup, really kills all vote involvement.

Because apparently at some point we've voted in secret what the plan for the next 5 turns is, with no deviations allowed, and collectively decides in advance that yes, 5 action grandslam on Khazagar finishes the school, drops our first 5 action commitment on anything Ever on a Wonder (trait upgrade progress anyone?), and gives the school 9 to 14 overflow is most definitely and certainly what we plan to do, and soulcake might as well not post about our options for votes at the end of updates because There Is A Plan and some inner voting block has decided that The Plan Shall Be Followed.

And any arguments or discussion to the contrary can be shut down by 'Oh, it would not be optimal'.

Again, nothing against you personally, but man what a way to instantly kill off all discussion and vote involvement.
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While I totally understand your point of view, I would note that the 5 turns plan has, in fact, been discussed in thread.
So far the planmakers, while making liberal use of discord, have also been pretty good at relaying discussion back to the thread. But it's been a long time since those discussions, so I'm not surprised you forgot.
 
SakSak said:
This is nothing against you, but I have to say this kind of attitude, and well the existence of long-term plans as a concept for a subgroup, really kills all vote involvement.

Because apparently at some point we've voted in secret what the plan for the next 5 turns is, with no deviations allowed, and collectively decides in advance that yes, 5 action grandslam on Khazagar finishes the school, drops our first 5 action commitment on anything Ever on a Wonder (trait upgrade progress anyone?), and gives the school 9 to 14 overflow is most definitely and certainly what we plan to do, and soulcake might as well not post about our options for votes at the end of updates because There Is A Plan and some inner voting block has decided that The Plan Shall Be Followed.

And any arguments or discussion to the contrary can be shut down by 'Oh, it would not be optimal'.

Again, nothing against you personally, but man what a way to instantly kill off all discussion and vote involvement.
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Looking at how you framed this, the fact you feel the need to emphasize its nothing against me personally just feels condescending and/or wasting my time. You clearly have a disagreement about how I do things or interact with the thread, which you have expressed here, we can stick with that instead of beating around the bush.

I'm sorry my answer to Eva discouraged your involvement, that was not my intent. Frankly I wouldn't want to do that, nor do I have the spare spoons to attempt it intentionally. Yes, I am part of a group on the discord that has spent significant time thinking about planning and what do do ahead of time - intentionally moving away from a flexible come as it may mindset or other forms of planning, I think because we all enjoy planning ahead of time.

I don't personally really enjoy planning reactively, and during moments of boredom spend time planning ahead in significant detail. And then I use that as a resource in argumentation.

The plan I have in mind in this particular case comes out to looking roughly like this:

Turn 48 Plan Chains
-Akazit 2
-Kradskonti or War 1
-Chain 2 + (5 brotherhood Favor) (-95 Valayan Favor) (Done)
-Bonus Research Fimir Eye 1
-Karstah Fimir Eye 1 (Done)
-Retainer Colony Support 1
-Retainer Khazagar 1 (4/24)
-Retainer Throng March 1
-Khazagar 45 Favor (7/24)

Turn 49 Plan Chains Second Step
-Akazit 3 (Done)
-Movement of Things 2 (3/11 Progress)
-Bonus Research Probably Ice Feathers?
-Karstah Something else
-Retainer Colony Support 1
-Retainer Khazagar 1 (8/24)
-Retainer Throng March Probably
-Khazagar 45 Favor (11/24)

Turn 50 Plan Chains Third Step
-Movement of Things 3 (8/11 Progress)
-Rune Metal 2 + 10 Valayan Favor (5/5 Progress, possibly 1 overflow)
-Bonus Research More Mat Sci
-Karstah More Mat Sci
-Retainer Colony Support 1
-Retainer Khazagar 1 (12/24)
-Retainer Something else
-Khazagar 45 Favor (15/24)

Turn 51 Plan Chains Fourth Step
-Movement of Things 2 (11/11 Progress)
-Master Rune of Thungni 3 (5/?? Progress) (Possibly complete)
-Bonus Research More Mat Sci
-Karstah Something else
-Retainer Colony Support 1
-Retainer Khazagar 1 (16/24)
-Retainer Something else
-Khazagar 45 Favor (19/24)

Turn 52
-Khazagar 5 actions (overflows with 9 to 14 Progress)
-Bonus Research More Mat Sci (we might be down to just the Chimera Mat Sci by this point)
-Karstah Something else
-Retainer Colony Support 1
-Retainer Khazagar 1 (20/24)
-Retainer Something else
-Khazagar 45 Favor (23/24)

So yeah, giving the Hammer to Winterhearth lets us put the Retainers on something else for five turns or so, but it gives up the chance to learn of Everfrost and learning about that and teaching it to Karstah (plus boosting her traits and expertise) is the primary reason I want to keep the hammer.

E: I may have shown this plan outline before in the thread, but I'm not sure.

Wiggy said:
Yeah, I generally dislike when there's some Discord chat group that's had all sorts of discussion *there* and then comes into thread and drops like 20 votes for some elaborate plan with zero discussion in thread. Makes for a bit of an uphill climb if you want to push for anything else when there's that already building bandwagon and you want to actually chat about things in thread and work out what's actually best. Doesn't help when some QM's will chat about what the voting options are going to be in advance on discord so they get extra time to plot it out before the thread gets the update either.
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Horium said:
Agreed. And this is why for every quest it should be Discord Delenda Est.

That is the exact reason why Boney never allowed it in his own work.
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Discord link is in Soul's signature through the Haunted Bakery link if you want to join in.

Personally, I don't spend as much time in SV threads for chatting purposes because it lacks a rapidity of response that Discord has which I prefer.
 
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SakSak said:
This is nothing against you, but I have to say this kind of attitude, and well the existence of long-term plans as a concept for a subgroup, really kills all vote involvement.

Because apparently at some point we've voted in secret what the plan for the next 5 turns is, with no deviations allowed, and collectively decides in advance that yes, 5 action grandslam on Khazagar finishes the school, drops our first 5 action commitment on anything Ever on a Wonder (trait upgrade progress anyone?), and gives the school 9 to 14 overflow is most definitely and certainly what we plan to do, and soulcake might as well not post about our options for votes at the end of updates because There Is A Plan and some inner voting block has decided that The Plan Shall Be Followed.

And any arguments or discussion to the contrary can be shut down by 'Oh, it would not be optimal'.

Again, nothing against you personally, but man what a way to instantly kill off all discussion and vote involvement.
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If you scroll back through Bungie's posts basically over the last year in thread, since the timeline for the Rhuniversity was set out back in February, you'll see that this has been long running and consistent line of communication, not something confined to Discord, but I'll post the outline here again anyway for posterity:

Code: 
Turn 48 Plan Chains
-Akazit 2
-Kradskonti or War 1
-Chain 2 + 5 brotherhood Favor (-95 Valayan Favor) (Done)


Turn 49 Plan Chains Second Step
-Akazit 3 (Done)
-Movement of Things 2 (3/11 Progress)


Turn 50 Plan Chains Third Step
-Movement of Things 3 (8/11 Progress)
-Rune Metal 2 + 10 Valayan Favor (5/5 Progress, possibly 1 overflow)


Turn 51 Plan Chains Fourth Step
-Movement of Things 2 (11/11 Progress)
-Master Rune of Thungni 3 (5/?? Progress) (Possibly complete)


Turn 52
-Khazagar 5 actions (overflows with 9 to 14 Progress)

The crux of the matter is this:

1) The Rhuniversity cannot be completed before the end of Turn 52. This is just a hard fact with how Soul implemented it.

2) The current timeline of progress on it, using favour spend and without Snorri's direct action investment, has it one action short of finishing come the end of Turn 51. Any more non-Snorri action here is wasted.

3) We only have a certain number of actions before the Rhuniversity, and a lot of things on the docket to complete before then - most of which are long-anticipated - Akazit, Runemetal, Chain 3b, Movement - or could benefit the Rhuniversity.

4) The way Snorri's traits are set up means that 3/2 or 2/2/1 action breakdowns are most efficient, and there are therefore very few ways that the research puzzle can be solved efficiently.

All of the above is subject to change depending on procs and future developments. Akazit in particular might shake up the rune-metal timeline, and if a viable avenue for Windsight opens up in the near future, which I think it might, I'm willing to basically drop everything to pursue it. People might also not want to go full-overboard on the Rhuniversity completion, but knowing thread habits, I think that's unlikely.
 
BungieONI said:
Discord link is in Soul's signature through the Haunted Bakery link if you want to join in.

Personally, I don't spend as much time in SV threads for chatting purposes because it lacks a rapidity of response that Discord has which I prefer.
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I don't want to be forced to join a discord just to be able to fully engage with plan-making and/or even just general discussion.

So that at least is a wash (for me).

And, in any case, I don't think that weakens SakSak's argument.

That this quest has evolved a seeming planning shadow cabal will lead to less engagement, the same as it did in other quests.
 
Horium said:
That this quest has evolved a seeming planning shadow cabal will lead to less engagement, the same as it did in other quests.
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Citation needed.

Discord, in general, leads to more audience engagement and community growth for quests and authors, not less. There's a reason why people use it, and it's because rapid-fire discussion in a forum medium is, frankly, awful. In fact, from my experience, not making a space for it doesn't stop the discussion like some people claim, but moves it to places that aren't easily or publicly accessible - fragmented or decentralised servers, or private DMs.

There is no shadow cabal for Rhunrikki, just some questers who are more engaged and willing to sling ideas back and forth between updates. If you've been around the Questing-sphere as long as I have, you'd know this is entirely normal - some people just want to read the updates, some people want a space for quick reactions, and some people get out the spreadsheets and make the QM's systems cry.

If you want to join in, feel free - no one is excluding you but yourself - but don't turn around and complain that people use a more accessible and convenient communication method because you don't care for it.
 
Horium said:
I don't want to be forced to join a discord just to be able to fully engage with plan-making and/or even just general discussion.

So that at least is a wash (for me).

And, in any case, I don't think that weakens SakSak's argument.

That this quest has evolved a seeming planning shadow cabal will lead to less engagement, the same as it did in other quests.
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First up, like my post above, I have been trying to engage people with my planning ideas. Or my Master Rune of the Phoenix idea. Or my Postmortems. Or when I talk about Rune Combos like the Mountainsouled banner for the Hearthguard.

My perspective on SakSak's argument is that my behavior discourages their engagement, that the idea of a shadow cabal makes them feel like their own votes are worthless. This seems out of wack when I've been trying to engage with the thread for two years. Since I joined this quest. SakSak's argument, and yours, implies the issue'd only be satisfied if there was no discord and everything was first hand. Dissolving the discord and shuffling everyone out of it seems like a much bigger ask than you know, making a discord account and joining in.

This argument does not have anything to stand on when I do my due diligence to actually try and engage with the thread.
 
On the Discord discussion.

TLDR: As I said, I didn't initially want a cabal, was careless and laid the groundwork down for a cabal anyway and it was too big to cut down IMO, so I decided to control the flow of info better and make sure everyone was working off the same knowledge instead.

The arguments for and against were ones I considered for a long time. It literally took me months to decide to make a Discord. Ultimately, my decision making stems from a few simple realities of Rhunrikki's existence.

1. The quest was planned, idea-stormed and rolled for in a separate Discord. It got so bad that I was quarantined to given my own specific channel to do all that stuff in.
2. While I do a lot of stuff on my own, I did and do go over mechanical balance before releasing stuff in public with other people.
3. I got so used to it that I let a few long-term spoilers and mechanic plans through sheer lack of forethought. The mechanics stuff are largely moot as they've been changed since then, but the point remains that I spoiled stuff.
4. I swore those people to secrecy, as I said, but I can't remove the possibility of them acting on that info subconsciously when making plans. No one's perfect, and honestly swearing people to secrecy felt like a bandaid.

These things stand in stark contrast to my historic decision not to run a Discord to prevent Cabal-ism from coming to the fore. I felt like both a hypocrite and like I had cultivated exactly what I didn't want to happen.

So I believed that my options were to go cold turkey on Discord, or try and control what was there and make it work under my own terms.
I chose the latter, mostly because I can't keep my mouth shut sometimes and like having people to bounce balance against. I think if the number of people I did those earlier points with was small, say like 5 at most, I could have just asked them not to vote for the sake of fairness, but it had grown well beyond that point. Quite a few people already came to that server specifically for the quest.

If I redid this quest, gone back in time, I think I would have gone for the other idea. Have like 5-7 specific people to be my idea council who literally are not allowed to vote, plan or contribute to any plans in the thread. But that isn't what I had. So I decided that rather than have this hodgepodge mess of stuff hard to enforce and poorly enforced rules I'd just commit to a Discord to keep a lid on things. Cold comfort, but I've been much more diligent there, and for good or ill I have been consistently keeping WoG posting between here and there the same so that everyone has the same info to work with. The most spoilery I get now is the Patrons, who at best see narrative bits a few days before release and see me balancing the numbers of the final systems I've designed before release. I think if I updated sooner and kept things closer to chest then I can make it fairer still, as the longer I delay the more time I give people on Discord, which I'm committed to doing, but yeah.

Basically repeating my own point when I first made the Discord here honestly.

So I do get the criticisms, but as I said the cat's out of the bag IMO. I'll do my best to keep my WoGs the same on both platforms, but I can't do much about the long-term planning. If not my server then it may very well happen in someone elses at this point. >_>

Patreon is more me committing to it because fuck it, I've already gone and decided to make a Discord.

Um, in terms of less heavy stuff #Rune-Ideas
Voikirium said:
Rune of Hoarfrost: This weapon grows thick with ice and cold and when brought against an enemy it grows upon them. The weight of the ice and frost that sheathes the enemy is so great as to reduce their march to a comparative crawl.

#Rune-Ideas
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Hoarfrost: Added, future Rune.
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Rune of Diligence: The bearer of a talisman engraved with this Rune finds their reserves of strength expanded, their ability to feel exhaustion dulled, so long as an enemy remains to be fought on the field or a task the bearer considers vital is yet unfulfilled. When no threat or duty remains, the Rune enhances the bearer's rest in preparation for future challenges of endurance. A favourite of Rangers and sentries when the Throng is encamped.

#Rune-Ideas
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Dilligence: I'll add it after making sure it isn't a duplicate of anything. Should be fine though.


Oh and Cultural Overview: The Northern Ranger should be up soon, a bit of something to digest in between updates.
 
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