Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

You could do that, but then you roll back around to 'you might fail'. You would have better than even odds but not that much better.
Well plus the stunt it seems fairly safe and failing isn't the end of the world either. We might still out bid her or she doesn't way to buy a air bagging car and if we don't stealing the car afterwards is still on the table.

[X] Firmly indicate to the vampire to back off (Charisma+Intimidation DPE applies)
-[X] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy
-[X] Stunt: The movement of your arm as you indicate your bid is sharp enough to cut the air. The glare you direct at the would-be competition is sharp enough to cut a soul; and that's barely a metaphor. Airbag explosion which punctuates your actions is a fitting acoustic accompaniment to the blow delivered by your wordless message: "Back away".

Anyone care to calculate the chances of 9 dice beating 7 where the 7 dice side loses 2 successes and the 9 dice side ignores 1s?
 
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Sutras of Technology and Magic
Well advanced technology is called out as being more advanced than our own so yeah some level of cyberpunk would make sense and including a spiritual element is very fitting to the world-soul of an infernal
So, I have something like this written-up for "how do they work both magic and technology together". Feedback appreciated, as always.


The most ancient of SUTRAs, though it was long before the modern name was created, were scrolls and tomes inked and branded on still living vellum. The spirits were smuggled out Great Prison by brave and desperate explorers, willing to enter profound pacts, and risk their eternity to escape.


As technology progressed, the spirit vessels also grew more complex. Mechanisms designed to allow them to more easily modify their substrates appeared and developed. The total informational capacity increased and the spirits inhabiting them grew in power and complexity. The lack of reliable sensors in these vessels often led to spirits housed in them undergoing mental deterioration if not regularly interacted with by other denizens of the Courts.


Modern day SUTRAs are marvels of technology, and as manifold in their forms, as are the forms of spirits they house. Incorporating semiconducting, micromechanical, and biomantic solutions, depending on the application for which a given SUTRA is created, it can vary from a nearly conventional processor, to a metalloorganic hybrid between a heart and a brain or a fractal agglomeration of ever-shifting gears, switches and springs.


The capacity for self-modification of stock SUTRAs is limited by technology. As the Wheel turns, and the Machine Spirit gains sapience, they might participate in the design of their own next vessel - a unique opportunity limited to their kind. The vessels of sapient spirits often demonstrate a degree of anthropomorphism, expressing features similar to body plans of the material races of the Court. Whether this is due to how machine spirits grow and get socialized in society, and thus internalize the forms of its members, or if it's some manner of form follows function situation is a hotly debated topic.
The gift of choice is a heavy one. All blessed with it by birth or happenstance of Fates must doubt, question, struggle. For those further gifted with the ability to Shape reality by their will and word, the burdens of choice are heavier still. A moment's hesitation, a flicker of indecision, a flight of fancy, and the light of their soul, burning brightly with their gift and training, would burst out of control. Milk would curdle, gear would grind, and wires would burn out. The art of ferromancy is not for those wielding the subtle practices of magic.

But men wouldn't be men if they didn't strive to transgress against their limitations. Since times almost lost in the mists of memories, when their many-shaped ancestors escaped from Gaol Beneath, and made their journey to the five poles which would later become five cities, the magi and artificiers both labored against the curse of techbane. Great sages would spend centuries and eventually millennia in closed doors meditation to hone their minds and will until only clarity remained. Artisans would introduce redundancies upon reduncancies into their creations, design self-repairing mechanisms and increase tolerances to the point where a stopwatch could be used as a cannonball.

It wasn't, however, until three generations ago, that a true solution was created. A merging of ferromancy and thaumaturgy inspired by the few systems of the Ancestral Prison that the brave explorers were able to tame, SUTRAs – Structure Unifying Thaumaturgy Resistance Attachments, take advantage of a long observed fact – the Burden of Choice cannot affect others capable of choice. A processor with ten or even more levels of redundancy can still burn out in the vicinity of a sufficiently agitated wizard, but neither an ailing mouse, nor a giant ferrosaur have to fear a stroke until expressly targeted. Thus, the reasoning went, if a mechanical object could be granted a spirit somehow, it would be rendered immune to the anti-technology field of magically inclined. And, if the spirit of the device itself possessed a modicum of the Gift, then new and previously undreamt of possibilities presented themselves.

At its core SUTRA is a spirit vessel – a mix between a summoning circle, black box, and a magic focus. Three main properties need to be present:

  • In order to house a machine spirit, as the type of creatures first extracted from the Great Labyrinth systems are known, an object has to have the capacity to hold and self-modify information. Ancient tomes of forbidden lore possessing their own minds, which can be found in dark recesses of infinite library, can be considered a kind of proto-SUTRA.
  • If it is to hold a spirit for a prolonged time without driving it completely insane, the potential vessel also has to be equipped with sensors that would serve as the spirit's eyes, ears, and more exotic sensory organs.
  • Finally, a spirit need an ability to express itself upon the world around it, and its host body –a voice with which to scream into the dark void the words "I AM!".
Modern SUTRAs, which can be found in nearly every device more complex than a mechanical pen built in the last five thousand moons, are all that and more. The precise details vary from model to model, but all of them have certain elements in common. A central processor, and a power-independent memory module forming the physical representation of the spirit's central nervous system. A sensory suit that, at the very least includes proprioception-emulating gyroscopic module, an optical sensor of varying levels of complexity, and a dynamic giving the machine basic senses. An input-output device, and a wireless transmitter, through which the spirit can make itself known. Finally, a micromechanical readjustable summoning and containment circle laid out in black jade that shields the SUTRA from the high thaumic fields in the process of construction, and afterwards allows for easy thaumaturgical expression.

When a blank SUTRA is attached to its body-to-be, and a ritual of ensoulment is enacted, a spirit gets attracted from noospheric cloud invisibly permeating the modern civilized world. It is a descendant of the spirits extracted from the Ancestral Prison or summoned from beyond the borders of the world long ago. As like calls to like, a spirit that gets attracted to a new holographic projector is probably going to be a child of an old TV animus, which, in turn, traces its original ancestry to first radios, while a smart gun spirit might have a parent whose body is a train turret. More complex, smart, and, indeed, old spirits get attracted to higher quality and more complex devices and SUTRAs. Most machine spirits, even should they live for a ten thousand moons, would never become smarter than a common house rat. The numbers of sapient ones is limited. Only such great machines as intercity trains, large corporate and monastery mainframes, and autonomous guardian units might hope to house one. It is projected that this will eventually change, as the complexity of technology and the age of the noosphere-inhabiting entities keeps increasing,

The explorers of the Labyrinth whisper rumours of malevolent echoes heard in its noosphere-equivalent systems. Echoes that grow louder and more complex as you venture forth, deeper into the unknown. Immaterial spirits far surpassing a common man in intellect might lurk within its black walls. However, no definite confirmation has been found as of yet.

Should a SUTRA be damaged beyond its ability to house the spirit, the spirit will escape – into the wireless field of the five cities noosphere, to jump from one system to another until it finds a new permanent home-body, or into the next turn of its personal Wheel of reincarnation, should the damage occur somewhere in the Wastes or Forests.

Not all SUTRA house a machine spirit. Those seeking cybernetic transcension, ferro- and infomancers practice rituals of attunement, in which they extend pieces of their own soul into the SUTRAs of various machines, such as cybernetic limb replacements, mechanical familiars and noospheric uplinks. This is the only way to take augmentations with one's self into the next turn of the Wheel, and, indeed, the only way to safely have a cybernetic implant at all. Similar procedures are performed by surgeon-priests correcting birth defects.
So, basically I am taking HMP and running with it. HMP can be applied to a car with a GPS. HMP in this quest renders the device possesed immune to techbane. So, the solution to techbane in a society with open magic is to HMP-equivalent all of their devices susceptible to techbane.

Where do they get infomorph demons? Some old ones were summoned (in a paradoxical way, because the world itself didn't exist then) into the world. Some were taken from the underground great prison. Then, as the internet of things took off, they started breeding. Nowadays, the Net exists and permeates the whole of society, with spirits existing both inside most devices and in the Net itself.

Most machine spirits are distinctly below human level of intelligence - our Cyberdevils are the elite of the elite, as it was, and can grow more, as appropriate for an Exalted direct servant and a product of an exalted charm. At 5 dots of background they would be well beyond what can be found in any common device.

I also tied this mechanism to how cybernetic implants are made to work. One essentially extends their soul into it, making it metaphysically a part of one's body.

The hardest part was making an appropriate acronym.
 
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I took Yog's plan and tried to make it softer and more direct on intimidation, to hopefully a) not sour our relations with this vamp as much by being above board up front polite about it and hopefully offering a sweetener in MiS effect, and b) have it us getting in contact with the White Court earlier, because why wait for a later opportunity when we can do it now? We'll hopefully be able to co-exist with them with mutual benefits, so better to start earlier.

The plan does not mean to drag trouble to Thomas' door, mentioning his name is a subtle way to let the vamp know we know what kind of a being she is. Us knowing about him does not in any way tie him into the current situation between Molly and the vamp.

Admitting to murder is to help with intimidation and is for the vamp's ears only, I assumed Molly is sufficiently skilled and the vamp would be very attentive to Molly for her to whisper in such a way only the vamp would hear it.

The stunt is written to minimize any risk, Molly getting together with the vamp and hush-hush talking with her is to appear to everybody else as a bratty teenager (helped by the way Molly is dressed) who recognized an acquaintance of an acquaintance and decided to just go talk with her. Coverup of any supernatural irregularities spilling over outside the conversation with the vamp would be helped by the tendency of the people to dismiss things out of the ordinary.

So overall, the plan tries to get in contact with White Court earlier and on a better note than just direct intimidation of one of its members would achieve, while minimizing risk accompanying intimidation attempt by keeping it strictly between Molly and the vamp as much as possible, helped by the their closeness.
You didn't soften it at all though; you're literally going right up to her and talking about the people we killed to get the car she just bike against us for. That's more confrontational, even if it's also verbal and couched in other concerns. That's a step or two from directly threatening her, even if it wasn't your intent.

Mentioning Thomas does risk trouble bringing him trouble because if she recognizes the name well enough for it to serve your purpose it makes him the person who knows what's going on from her perspective. Maybe she ducks and covers, but she could also say something to her superiors about it and get them asking questions.

You're also making a number of other weird assumptions. Like people dismissing our conversation as normal when we make ourselves the most interesting thing on the lot by doing obviously strange stuff. Or someone who lived past their childhood in the supernatural being dumb enough to follow up on cold calls from strange demon-creature hinting about they can solve your problems. Especially one currently trying to intimidate her with implicit threats of violence.


We don't need to awkwardly work at cross purposes here; this vamp is a nobody at a car auction. If we want some sort of relationship with the white court (which I'm skeptical about for a number of reasons we can get into separately) we have better options.
 
So, I have something like this written-up for "how do they work both magic and technology together". Feedback appreciated, as always.

The gift of choice is a heavy one. All blessed with it by birth or happenstance of Fates must doubt, question, struggle. For those further gifted with the ability to Shape reality by their will and word, the burdens of choice are heavier still. A moment's hesitation, a flicker of indecision, a flight of fancy, and the light of their soul, burning brightly with their gift and training, would burst out of control. Milk would curdle, gear would grind, and wires would burn out. The art of ferromancy is not for those wielding the subtle practices of magic.

But men wouldn't be men if they didn't strive to transgress against their limitations. Since times almost lost in the mists of memories, when their many-shaped ancestors escaped from Gaol Beneath, and made their journey to the five poles which would later become five cities, the magi and artificiers both labored against the curse of techbane. Great sages would spend centuries and eventually millennia in closed doors meditation to hone their minds and will until only clarity remained. Artisans would introduce redundancies upon reduncancies into their creations, design self-repairing mechanisms and increase tolerances to the point where a stopwatch could be used as a cannonball.

It wasn't, however, until three generations ago, that a true solution was created. A merging of ferromancy and thaumaturgy inspired by the few systems of the Ancestral Prison that the brave explorers were able to tame, SUTRAs – Structure Unifying Thaumaturgy Resistance Attachments, take advantage of a long observed fact – the Burden of Choice cannot affect others capable of choice. A processor with ten or even more levels of redundancy can still burn out in the vicinity of a sufficiently agitated wizard, but neither an ailing mouse, nor a giant ferrosaur have to fear a stroke until expressly targeted. Thus, the reasoning went, if a mechanical object could be granted a spirit somehow, it would be rendered immune to the anti-technology field of magically inclined. And, if the spirit of the device itself possessed a modicum of the Gift, then new and previously undreamt of possibilities presented themselves.

At its core SUTRA is a spirit vessel – a mix between a summoning circle, black box, and a magic focus. Three main properties need to be present:

  • In order to house a machine spirit, as the type of creatures first extracted from the Great Labyrinth systems are known, an object has to have the capacity to hold and self-modify information. Ancient tomes of forbidden lore possessing their own minds, which can be found in dark recesses of infinite library, can be considered a kind of proto-SUTRA.
  • If it is to hold a spirit for a prolonged time without driving it completely insane, the potential vessel also has to be equipped with sensors that would serve as the spirit's eyes, ears, and more exotic sensory organs.
  • Finally, a spirit need an ability to express itself upon the world around it, and its host body –a voice with which to scream into the dark void the words "I AM!".
Modern SUTRAs, which can be found in nearly every device more complex than a mechanical pen built in the last five thousand moons, are all that and more. The precise details vary from model to model, but all of them have certain elements in common. A central processor, and a power-independent memory module forming the physical representation of the spirit's central nervous system. A sensory suit that, at the very least includes proprioception-emulating gyroscopic module, an optical sensor of varying levels of complexity, and a dynamic giving the machine basic senses. An input-output device, and a wireless transmitter, through which the spirit can make itself known. Finally, a micromechanical readjustable summoning and containment circle laid out in black jade that shields the SUTRA from the high thaumic fields in the process of construction, and afterwards allows for easy thaumaturgical expression.

When a blank SUTRA is attached to its body-to-be, and a ritual of ensoulment is enacted, a spirit gets attracted from noospheric cloud invisibly permeating the modern civilized world. It is a descendant of the spirits extracted from the Ancestral Prison or summoned from beyond the borders of the world long ago. As like calls to like, a spirit that gets attracted to a new holographic projector is probably going to be a child of an old TV animus, which, in turn, traces its original ancestry to first radios, while a smart gun spirit might have a parent whose body is a train turret. More complex, smart, and, indeed, old spirits get attracted to higher quality and more complex devices and SUTRAs. Most machine spirits, even should they live for a ten thousand moons, would never become smarter than a common house rat. The numbers of sapient ones is limited. Only such great machines as intercity trains, large corporate and monastery mainframes, and autonomous guardian units might hope to house one. It is projected that this will eventually change, as the complexity of technology and the age of the noosphere-inhabiting entities keeps increasing,

The explorers of the Labyrinth whisper rumours of malevolent echoes heard in its noosphere-equivalent systems. Echoes that grow louder and more complex as you venture forth, deeper into the unknown. Immaterial spirits far surpassing a common man in intellect might lurk within its black walls. However, no definite confirmation has been found as of yet.

Should a SUTRA be damaged beyond its ability to house the spirit, the spirit will escape – into the wireless field of the five cities noosphere, to jump from one system to another until it finds a new permanent home-body, or into the next turn of its personal Wheel of reincarnation, should the damage occur somewhere in the Wastes or Forests.

Not all SUTRA house a machine spirit. Those seeking cybernetic transcension, ferro- and infomancers practice rituals of attunement, in which they extend pieces of their own soul into the SUTRAs of various machines, such as cybernetic limb replacements, mechanical familiars and noospheric uplinks. This is the only way to take augmentations with one's self into the next turn of the Wheel, and, indeed, the only way to safely have a cybernetic implant at all. Similar procedures are performed by surgeon-priests correcting birth defects.
So, basically I am taking HMP and running with it. HMP can be applied to a car with a GPS. HMP in this quest renders the device possesed immune to techbane. So, the solution to techbane in a society with open magic is to HMP-equivalent all of their devices susceptible to techbane.

Where do they get infomorph demons? Some old ones were summoned (in a paradoxical way, because the world itself didn't exist then) into the world. Some were taken from the underground great prison. Then, as the internet of things took off, they started breeding. Nowadays, the Net exists and permeates the whole of society, with spirits existing both inside most devices and in the Net itself.

Most machine spirits are distinctly below human level of intelligence - our Cyberdevils are the elite of the elite, as it was, and can grow more, as appropriate for an Exalted direct servant and a product of an exalted charm. At 5 dots of background they would be well beyond what can be found in any common device.

I also tied this mechanism to how cybernetic implants are made to work. One essentially extends their soul into it, making it metaphysically a part of one's body.

The hardest part was making an appropriate acronym.

Very cool, threadmarked. This is certainly something that could exist, though some of the details for this will come up in the vote when you buy the charm for the Kingdom. They will be very relevant if you guys decide to engage with the system as a strategy game and even if not they will define what kind of help you can draw out.
 
You didn't soften it at all though; you're literally going right up to her and talking about the people we killed to get the car she just bike against us for. That's more confrontational, even if it's also verbal and couched in other concerns. That's a step or two from directly threatening her, even if it wasn't your intent.

Mentioning Thomas does risk trouble bringing him trouble because if she recognizes the name well enough for it to serve your purpose it makes him the person who knows what's going on from her perspective. Maybe she ducks and covers, but she could also say something to her superiors about it and get them asking questions.
The threat is required for intimidation to work and is present implicitly in all other plans, with glaring or making the vamp feel as she might be eaten, because why would vamp be intimidated if not for the fact that she thinks we are a credible threat? Making the threat more explicit makes it better because it shows we are reasonable and up front and don't bullshit, so actually quite easy to deal with. It's better for the possible futher relations with the vamp for her to back off because she agreed to our arguments and not because we scared her shitless.

And I don't follow how it would be trouble for Thomas to get that kind of attention? He would truthfully answer questions, providing all info he knows; he is not under any obligation to do otherwise, and the more White Court knows about us, the better, because they will know sooner or later and cooperation is better on common knowledge.

You're also making a number of other weird assumptions. Like people dismissing our conversation as normal when we make ourselves the most interesting thing on the lot by doing obviously strange stuff. Or someone who lived past their childhood in the supernatural being dumb enough to follow up on cold calls from strange demon-creature hinting about they can solve your problems. Especially one currently trying to intimidate her with implicit threats of violence.
I think that when whatever supernatural stuff is only between Molly and the vamp, other people would dismiss it as teenager who is just another rich daddy's daughter, thinking she is hot shit while obviously is not, and is acting out. Intimidation and all the supernatural stuff is directed only at the vamp, others would only see a young girl trying to appear more important than she is, helped by the innate tendency of the people who are not in on the masquerade to dismiss things.

On the contrary, the stick and carrot of explicit threat and possible problem solving would work exactly because the vamp is smart enough to recognize the situation she is in. DPE makes her instinctively recognize that she is hopelessly beneath us; we reinforce this with explicit intimidation and as her superior politely and explicitly ask her to get out of our way to the thing we want, and if she does that, we not only will not hold any grudge, we may even magnanimously give her a pittance of reward. We are not trying to trade with her, if there will be any reward, it will be like a small thank you coin to a servant who promptly obeyed her master.
 
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Honestly isn't intimidating the vampire here overkill? And a bit mean spirited.
I don't just mean using our excellency to intimidate the vampire, I mean intimidating them at all. Intimidation is a very blunt tool. Using fear to solve our problems will make more of them in the future. Yes we can just intimidate everyone into doing what we want, but that would be an awfully unpleasant way to live.

Really why would the vampire bid against us once we have made our interest clear? She knows we are some sort of scary supernatural. Does she also enjoy poking bears?

Anyway instead of trying to intimidate her I would like to suggest we communicate with her.

[X] Subtly indicate to the vampire to back off (Charisma+Subterfuge DPE applies)
-[X] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy
-[X] Use Subterfuge excellency
-[X] If she still persists, approach her after the auction.

-[X] Stunt: The vampire's eyes flick to Black Rider when the airbag goes off and back to you just in time to catch the slight tilt of your head and twitch of your eyebrows. You follow it up with confidently placing your own bid. The message is clear, you will be getting the car, or nobody will.


Does this seem correct to people? Subterfuge seems to be the right skill to me for this sort of hidden conversation. Unless the vampire is both a massive spiteful jerk and has no survival instinct she should back off once we have made our position clear. It's also much more appropriate for a public place and has no risk of the vampire suddenly having a panic attack or anything.

And if she doesn't back off once we have made our position clear, we can let her buy the car and then approach her after the auction when she realizes that the car won't start and offer to buy the non-functional car, for $5,000 or so. "Oh I'm so sorry you got a lemon, why don't I take if off your hands". If she still persists we can drop down to intimidation, hopefully being in a less public place at this point. Or at least with less people between us.

Basically don't immediately jump to threatening people for what we want. She nearly panicked on seeing us. She is not our enemy yet. Lets take the soft touch first.
 
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I think we should add our mind defense to the plan just in case something happens. You can never know with the White Court!!
 
I think we should add our mind defense to the plan just in case something happens. You can never know with the White Court!!
Mind defense works reflexively we don't need to prepare it ahead of time.
Honestly isn't intimidating the vampire here overkill? And a bit mean spirited.

I don't just mean using our excellency to intimidate the vampire, I mean intimidating them at all. Intimidation is a very blunt tool. Using fear to solve our problems will make more of them in the future. Yes we can just intimidate everyone into doing what we want, but that would be an awfully unpleasant way to live.



Really why would the vampire bid against us once we have made our interest clear? She knows we are some sort of scary supernatural. Does she also enjoy poking bears?



Anyway instead of trying to intimidate her I would like to suggest we communicate with her.



[X] Subtly indicate to the vampire to back off (Charisma+Subterfuge DPE applies)

-[X] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy

-[X] Use Subterfuge excellency

-[X] If she still persists, approach her after the auction.

-[X] Stunt: The vampire's eyes flick to Black Rider when the airbag goes off and back to you just in time to catch the slight tilt of your head and twitch of your eyebrows. You follow it up with confidently placing your own bid. The message is clear, you will be getting the car, or nobody will.



Does this seem correct to people? Subterfuge seems to be the right skill to me for this sort of hidden conversation. Unless the vampire is both a massive spiteful jerk and has no survival instinct she should back off once we have made our position clear. It's also much more appropriate for a public place and has no risk of the vampire suddenly having a panic attack or anything.



And if she doesn't back off once we have made our position clear, we can let her buy the car and then approach her after the auction when she realizes that the car won't start and offer to buy the non-functional car, for $5,000 or so. "Oh I'm so sorry you got a lemon, why don't I take if off your hands". If she still persists we can drop down to intimidation, hopefully being in a less public place at this point. Or at least with less people between us.



Basically don't immediately jump to threatening people for what we want. She nearly panicked on seeing us. She is not our enemy yet. Lets take the soft touch first.

You might as well do



[] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy, vampire or not the lady is not going to want to buy a money pit



with stunt. She has already noticed that we are scary and the act of bidding already shows our intentions. No other messages needed.
 
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Honestly isn't intimidating the vampire here overkill? And a bit mean spirited.
I don't just mean using our excellency to intimidate the vampire, I mean intimidating them at all. Intimidation is a very blunt tool. Using fear to solve our problems will make more of them in the future. Yes we can just intimidate everyone into doing what we want, but that would be an awfully unpleasant way to live.

Really why would the vampire bid against us once we have made our interest clear? She knows we are some sort of scary supernatural. Does she also enjoy poking bears?

Anyway instead of trying to intimidate her I would like to suggest we communicate with her.

[X] Subtly indicate to the vampire to back off (Charisma+Subterfuge DPE applies)
-[X] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy
-[X] Use Subterfuge excellency
-[X] If she still persists, approach her after the auction.

-[X] Stunt: The vampire's eyes flick to Black Rider when the airbag goes off and back to you just in time to catch the slight tilt of your head and twitch of your eyebrows. You follow it up with confidently placing your own bid. The message is clear, you will be getting the car, or nobody will.


Does this seem correct to people? Subterfuge seems to be the right skill to me for this sort of hidden conversation. Unless the vampire is both a massive spiteful jerk and has no survival instinct she should back off once we have made our position clear. It's also much more appropriate for a public place and has no risk of the vampire suddenly having a panic attack or anything.

And if she doesn't back off once we have made our position clear, we can let her buy the car and then approach her after the auction when she realizes that the car won't start and offer to buy the non-functional car, for $5,000 or so. "Oh I'm so sorry you got a lemon, why don't I take if off your hands". If she still persists we can drop down to intimidation, hopefully being in a less public place at this point. Or at least with less people between us.

Basically don't immediately jump to threatening people for what we want. She nearly panicked on seeing us. She is not our enemy yet. Lets take the soft touch first.
You might as well do

[] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy, vampire or not the lady is not going to want to buy a money pit

with stunt. She has already noticed that we are scary and the act of bidding already shows our intentions. No other messages needed.
 
You might as well do

[] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy, vampire or not the lady is not going to want to buy a money pit

with stunt. She has already noticed that we are scary and the act of bidding already shows our intentions. No other messages needed.
The point is to not just implicitly show our intentions via bid, but to open a clear (but subtle) channel of non-verbal communication with Subterfuge. We don't just want her to know what we want. We want her to know, that we know, that she knows what we want. That way she can't play dumb later (or rather that if she does try to she will look stupid).

Right now bidding against us could attempt to be played off as "Just business", and then she could try to extort a high price from us when we approach her after. But if we make it clear to her that we have a personal interest in the car now, then any attempt to bid against us would be a slight against us. This means that if she is obstinate and refuses to sell the car to us after the auction we will be fully justified in intimidating her into it. We gave ample warning, she chose to ignore all the signs.

But right now she may not have even known that this was the car we were interested in. Jumping right to threatening her would be unjustified.

It's about the social dynamics. If there is no other choice I may approval vote for "[] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy, vampire or not the lady is not going to want to buy a money pit" later. But right now I would like to present more developed option.
 
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The threat is required for intimidation to work and is present implicitly in all other plans, with glaring or making the vamp feel as she might be eaten, because why would vamp be intimidated if not for the fact that she thinks we are a credible threat? Making the threat more explicit makes it better because it shows we are reasonable and up front and don't bullshit, so actually quite easy to deal with. It's better for the possible futher relations with the vamp for her to back off because she agreed to our arguments and not because we scared her shitless.

And I don't follow how it would be trouble for Thomas to get that kind of attention? He would truthfully answer questions, providing all info he knows; he is not under any obligation to do otherwise, and the more White Court knows about us, the better, because they will know sooner or later and cooperation is better on common knowledge.

There different shades of threat; a little flexing of one kind or another is worlds apart from getting into her personal space to whisper in her ear about how we killed the last owner of that car she just bid on. Especially since a significant plurality of supernatural critters are at their most dangerous in close range; getting in someone's face like that might as well be leveling a gun at it for most of them.

You're acting like this softens anything when it's arguably more directly threatening than any other option, undercutting the other stuff you're trying to fit into the vote.

The problem with dragging Thomas into this is that we don't know if or how they'll respond, and whatever they do would be a surprise to him as well. They probably wouldn't jump him over it, but unpleasant conversations where he gets pumped for information or similar are possible. Which is kind of a shit thing to send his way for no reason beyond a call out we don't even need.

I think that when whatever supernatural stuff is only between Molly and the vamp, other people would dismiss it as teenager who is just another rich daddy's daughter, thinking she is hot shit while obviously is not, and is acting out. Intimidation and all the supernatural stuff is directed only at the vamp, others would only see a young girl trying to appear more important than she is, helped by the innate tendency of the people who are not in on the masquerade to dismiss things.

On the contrary, the stick and carrot of explicit threat and possible problem solving would work exactly because the vamp is smart enough to recognize the situation she is in. DPE makes her instinctively recognize that she is hopelessly beneath us; we reinforce this with explicit intimidation and as her superior politely and explicitly ask her to get out of our way to the thing we want, and if she does that, we not only will not hold any grudge, we may even magnanimously give her a pittance of reward. We are not trying to trade with her, if there will be any reward, it will be like a small thank you coin to a servant who promptly obeyed her master.
I wasn't suggesting that they'd be watching because they detect the supernatural bits, but that we'd be grabbing attention by doing the obvious break social niceties thing and then harassing another participant. How well that goes is difficult to say, but having an explanation for why something is mundane isn't the same as having one that keeps people from paying attention to it.

Carrot and stick only work with some amount of trust if the other party has options other than interacting with you. For all she knows we're every bit as nasty as the pathfinders and our gifts are just as self destructive.

You're assuming everyone will draw exactly the conclusions we want and nothing else without regard to context or differences in perspective.
 
[X] Subtly indicate to the vampire to back off (Charisma+Subterfuge DPE applies)
-[X] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy
-[X] Use Subterfuge excellency
-[X] If she still persists, approach her after the auction.

-[X] Stunt: The vampire's eyes flick to Black Rider when the airbag goes off and back to you just in time to catch the slight tilt of your head and twitch of your eyebrows. You follow it up with confidently placing your own bid. The message is clear, you will be getting the car, or nobody will.
 
[X] Firmly indicate to the vampire to back off (Charisma+Intimidation DPE applies)
-[X] Use intimidation excellency
-[X] Stunt: Molly briefly shifts and shoots an irritated glance at the vampire.
—[X] As their eyes meet, something changes in the air.
—[X] Nothing is physically different, but Molly suddenly seems impossibly vast; the shift in perspective dawning like the realization that a nearby hill is truly a distant mountain.
—[X] A languid annoyance seeps into her gaze, a great beast cracking an eye to see if the creature that wandered into its den is worth getting up to eat.
—[X] The moment ends as abruptly as it began, breaking as Molly turns to place her bid.
 
My plan is mostly based on the thought if we are going Intimidation route, we should commit to it 100% and appear maximally knowledgeable and powerful and unassailable and intimidating, and as clear and explicit as possible as to what we want and why it's we who should get it (that's where the argument about our history with the car and how it's the spoils of our combat with its last owner goes in).

The less uncertainty the vamp has that Molly is overwhelmingly more powerful than her, and the less uncertainly she has as to what and why she has to give up, the less she has useless fear, anxiety and panic, which, them being possible sources of sourness in relations with the White Court, we want as minimize as much as possible. That's what I mean by softer, the ultimate effect on the vamp's wellbeing.

And if we are using DPE, we should not only use its mechanical benefits, but lean into its fluff to increase our commitment as well, that we are an overwhelmingly superior authority and that all this is not threats and intimidation, but a simple alternatives justly laid out by the magnanimous sovereign that is us before someone as beneath us as her.

And given that MiS can be construed to apply to the situation, we obviously should try to make it apply too, as stick and carrot is better than just the stick. Offer of benefits reinforces our presentation as a not malevolent authority which is better obeyed, but if explicit offer of benefits is a sticking point, then at least it's better if she is aware she is following our will, as even unexpectedly received MiS benefits could be a hook we can use for our advantage in White Court relations later.

Or, if we are not going 100% in intimidation, then I think it's better to not go that route at all and instead try to be more diplomatic, I like JayTar's plan for that and approval vote for it.
 
Im honestly not sure why y'all are picking unnecessary fights with a low level Whampire.
Especially since this is a public auction, with normal mortals who are also interested in the car, and are entirely capable of buying it out from under us while we're posturing.

Remember that while this is a luxury car, its not rare. CLS-series sports cars were in production until 2010.
Anyone who has a hundred and thirty kayish can walk into a Mercedes dealership and buy or order one brand new.
The people here are people who cant afford new, or are looking for a deal.

Worst case with the Whampire over there is that we walk up to them after the auction and buy it off them.
Throwing weight around when the other party is doing nothing obviously wrong is neither necessary nor conducive to the sort of reputation we want to cultivate.

Current tally:

Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Dec 2, 2022 at 9:25 PM, finished with 52 posts and 16 votes.

  • [X] Firmly indicate to the vampire to back off (Charisma+Intimidation DPE applies)
    -[X] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy
    -[X] Use Intimidation excellency
    -[X] Stunt: The movement of your arm as you indicate your bid is sharp enough to cut the air. The glare you direct at the would-be competition is sharp enough to cut a soul; and that's barely a metaphor. Airbag explosion which punctuates your actions is a fitting acoustic accompaniment to the blow delivered by your wordless message: "Back away".
    [X] Firmly indicate to the vampire to back off (Charisma+Intimidation DPE applies)
    -[X] Use Intimidation excellency
    -[X] Stunt: Molly briefly shifts and shoots an irritated glance at the vampire.
    —[X] As their eyes meet, something changes in the air.
    —[X] Nothing is physically different, but Molly suddenly seems impossibly vast; the shift in perspective dawning like the realization that a nearby hill is truly a distant mountain.
    —[X] A languid annoyance seeps into her gaze, a great beast cracking an eye to see if the creature that wandered into its den is worth getting up to eat.
    —[X] The moment ends as abruptly as it began, breaking as Molly turns to place her bid.
    [X] Subtly indicate to the vampire to back off (Charisma+Subterfuge DPE applies)
    -[X] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy
    -[X] Use Subterfuge excellency
    -[X] If she still persists, approach her after the auction.
    -[X] Stunt: The vampire's eyes flick to Black Rider when the airbag goes off and back to you just in time to catch the slight tilt of your head and twitch of your eyebrows. You follow it up with confidently placing your own bid. The message is clear, you will be getting the car, or nobody will.
    [X] Let her win, you have no qualms stealing from the White Court, what are they going to do report the possessed car driving off?
    [X] Write in: Firmly but politely ask vampire to back off (Charisma+Intimidation DPE applies)
    -[X] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy
    -[X] Use Intimidation excellency
    -[X] Stunt: You are already dressed to tell 'fuck off' to social conventions, now you act like it. Confidently, like you are the queen of the lot, you drag your seat near the vampire. The movement of your arm as you indicate your bid is full of poise and projects full confidence that the car will be yours; and for vampire that's barely a metaphor, she understands well what you intend to communicate. Airbag explosion which punctuates your actions is a fitting acoustic accompaniment. You whisper to the vampire, so that only she understands your words, firmly but without hostility: "Hello, you are from the same circles as Thomas, right? Looks like we are after the same car; unfortunate, as it is dear to me after our shared history, and from a certain point of view it might even be said I killed its previous owner for it. Let me have it for how long I will it, and there might even be something beneficial in it to you." (Alluding to possible MiS benefits from explicitly acting out's Molly will).
    [x] Write in: Why just intimidate the vampire, intimidate the entire group.
    -[X] Use Intimidation excellency
    -[x] Stunt: As the Black Rider is brought up, as you raise your sign with a twirl and flick of the wrist you send a blast of cold air down the spines of everybody in the room. While stomping your shoes on the floor to send a crack of sound reverberating off the walls. raising up you cast a look to the rooms occupants that promises the wrath of a princess of the hell's upon any that obstruct your desire.
    [X] Firmly indicate to the vampire to back off (Charisma+Intimidation DPE applies)
    -[X] Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy
    -[X] Stunt: The movement of your arm as you indicate your bid is sharp enough to cut the air. The glare you direct at the would-be competition is sharp enough to cut a soul; and that's barely a metaphor. Airbag explosion which punctuates your actions is a fitting acoustic accompaniment to the blow delivered by your wordless message: "Back away".


Gimme thirty minutes to put together a vote and stunt
 
Preemptive vote on the assumption that @uju32 posts that plan he mentioned before DP calls the vote.

[X] uju32
 
VOTE
[X]Plan Major Malfunction
-[X]Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy, vampire or not the lady is not going to want to buy a money pit
--[X] Cyberdevils: Run general Internet and social media search on Whampire using picture from Clippy
--[X] Crown of Eyes: Focus Shoes. Question: ID of owner and position in White Court. Only ask if Cyberdevils dont turn up info.
--[X] STUNT: "Thirty thousand." Heads turn involuntarily at the sound of your voice, even as you raise your sign labelled 26 with one hand. The White Court vampire looks over as well, and you meet her glance with a cool stare of your own, blue eyes meeting green. Yes, I SEE you. As she looks away hastily, you purse your lips, then type on your phone keypad. Do the thing. As the car explodes into an alarm blaring, wiper-waving, light flashing discoball punctuated by inflating airbags, you think a second set of orders for your cyberdevils, then lean back into your chair, with line of sight to the Whampire's fashionable shoes. Let's see what the appetite for risk is.



RATIONALE
Molly has previously stated she will treat Whampires like people until proven otherwise.
Back in Arc 0 Update 27.
"Thomas is fine, but the rest of his kind are not, they are predators, whether they feed on lust or fear or despair so keep away from them if you spot them. I know where some of their businesses are but you should probably keep away from them anyway."

It takes more arguing than it rightly should, but eventually Harry explains that he does not mean that the lust eating vampires run the bingo halls for retirees. No, they instead, quite sensibly given their diet, try to run the sex industry and everything adjacent to it they can sink t heir claws in. After all if you can convince the prey to walk into your den there in no need to chase it down.

To be honest you are not sure what to think about the Raiths. On the one hand they are monsters that feed on people, on the other hand they are also people and if they do not feed they die. Is it fair to call someone evil just because they choose not to martyr themselves? Thomas had seemed fine enough so that he had worked with dad which means that unless you had met the one Good Vampire in the universe there are probably others like him, or maybe just a little worse... or a little better. You resolve to treat the white court as people with demons in their heads which you would be a hypocrite to call monsters out of hand.
That precludes picking fights or playing bully for no reason.

Everyone here is either here to get a deal on a used car they cant buy new, or to recover a particular car for sentimental reasons.
And the vampire is not likely to be the only person bidding for the car.
So monfocusing on the vampire just leaves the option for someone else to snipe it out from under us.

Also worth remembering that the disowned Thomas Raith was driving a new Hummer in Small Favor, and replaced it with a new expensive Jaguar in Turn Coat. A 2006 Hummer H1 is well north of a hundred grand MSRP, and he paid for it by opening a business.
If the lady Whampire over here wants a used Mercedes, she doesnt have all that much money, or she'd just buy new.

Which makes her either a baby vamp or a rebel, one without much resources. A potential asset.

Our worst case scenario is that a mortal buys it, because then there are ethical issues involved.
If the Whampire buys it, we can just attempt to buy it off them at a higher price using Demonic Primacy + Excellency + Mercy in Servitude to convine them, and leave them with enough money to buy a new one or a newer used one.

Violence and intimidation is generally supposed to be a last option, not a first one.
Especially when its not a declared enemy.
And this may well be a recruitable asset, so its costs us little to be careful.
 
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[X] uju32

I would rather not use the crown for this. I do like not throwing around the scary needlessly.
 
VOTE
[X]Plan Major Malfunction
-[X]Continue with the plan of Black Rider making himself seem like a bad buy, vampire or not the lady is not going to want to buy a money pit
--[X] Cyberdevils: Run general Internet and social media search on Whampire using picture from Clippy
--[X] Crown of Eyes: Focus Shoes. Question: ID of owner and position in White Court. Only ask if Cyberdevils dont turn up info.
--[X] STUNT: "Thirty thousand." Heads turn involuntarily at the sound of your voice, even as you raise your sign labelled 26 with one hand. The White Court vampire looks over as well, and you meet her glance with a cool stare of your own, blue eyes meeting green. Yes, I SEE you. As she looks away hastily, you purse your lips, then type on your phone keypad. Do the thing. As the car explodes into an alarm blaring, wiper-waving, light flashing discoball, you think a second set of orders for your cyberdevils, then lean back into your chair, with line of sight to the Whampire's fashionable shoes. Let's see what the appetite for risk is.



RATIONALE
Molly has previously stated she will treat Whampires like people until proven otherwise.
Back in Arc 0 Update 27.

Everyone here is either here to get a deal on a used car they cant buy new, or to recover a particular car for sentimental reasons.
And the vampire is not likely to be the only person bidding for the car.
So monfocusing on the vampire just leaves the option for someone else to snipe it out from under us.

Also worth remembering that the disowned Thomas Raith was driving a new Hummer in Small Favor, and replaced it with a new expensive Jaguar in Turn Coat. A 2006 Hummer H1 is well north of a hundred grand MSRP, and he paid for it by opening a business.
If the lady Whampire over here wants a used Mercedes, she doesnt have all that much money, or she'd just buy new.

We're looking at either a baby vamp or a rebel, one without much resources.

Our worst case scenario is that a mortal buys it, because then there are ethical issues involved.
If the Whampire buys it, we can just attempt to buy it off them at a higher price using Demonic Primacy + Excellency to convine them, and leave them with enough money to buy a new one or a newer used one.

Violence and intimidation is generally supposed to be a last option, not a first one.
Especially when its not a declared enemy.
And this may well be a recruitable asset, so its costs us little to be careful.
Okay, so I absolutely 100% agree that trying to intimidate the vampire here is a bad move. They have done nothing to us yet and we have no reason to make an enemy.

But uh. Your vote seems a bit over the top. One malfunction can be plausibly explained away. But even mortals are going to get a bit suspicious about the car lighting up like that. You don't need a supernatural explanation to think that someone tampered with the car after all. Between the fact that we are bidding on it, and just generally how much we stand out here makes me worry we would come under suspicion.

Also searching her with Clippy would require we point our phone at her, which would be a bit rude and attention getting.

What do you think about my vote of using Subterfuge?
 
Molly has previously stated she will treat Whampires like people until proven otherwise.
Back in Arc 0 Update 27.
That precludes picking fights or playing bully for no reason.

Everyone here is either here to get a deal on a used car they cant buy new, or to recover a particular car for sentimental reasons.
And the vampire is not likely to be the only person bidding for the car.
So monfocusing on the vampire just leaves the option for someone else to snipe it out from under us.

Also worth remembering that the disowned Thomas Raith was driving a new Hummer in Small Favor, and replaced it with a new expensive Jaguar in Turn Coat. A 2006 Hummer H1 is well north of a hundred grand MSRP, and he paid for it by opening a business.
If the lady Whampire over here wants a used Mercedes, she doesnt have all that much money, or she'd just buy new.

Which makes her either a baby vamp or a rebel, one without much resources.

Our worst case scenario is that a mortal buys it, because then there are ethical issues involved.
If the Whampire buys it, we can just attempt to buy it off them at a higher price using Demonic Primacy + Excellency to convine them, and leave them with enough money to buy a new one or a newer used one.

Violence and intimidation is generally supposed to be a last option, not a first one.
Especially when its not a declared enemy.
And this may well be a recruitable asset, so its costs us little to be careful.
Is it possible that this Whampire is targeting Black Rider because of its supernatural denizen? For instance, she is a fellow occult researcher. It can explain her interest in the used car.
 
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Okay, so I absolutely 100% agree that trying to intimidate the vampire here is a bad move. They have done nothing to us yet and we have no reason to make an enemy.

But uh. Your vote seems a bit over the top. One malfunction can be plausibly explained away. But even mortals are going to get a bit suspicious about the car lighting up like that. You don't need a supernatural explanation to think that someone tampered with the car after all. Between the fact that we are bidding on it, and just generally how much we stand out here makes me worry we would come under suspicion.

Also searching her with Clippy would require we point our phone at her, which would be a bit rude and attention getting.

What do you think about my vote of using Subterfuge?
1)Would you buy a car for tens of thousands of dollars if you think someone tampered with it?
Doesnt matter who did it, it immediately drops the vehicles resale value and people's willingness to risk their hard earned cash on a vehicle with no warranty and no refunds.

And I see no reason people would think it was the teenager who came to buy a Merc, as opposed to either a cop borrowing it from the impound and fucking it up, or someone sneaking in and attempting to steal parts. Or even improper storage/maintenance.
This is not really a scenario where the vehicle benefits from imitating minor faults.

Frankly, we dont even need to type on the phone to give Black Rider orders when we're in the same area and can perceive it.


2) You dont need to point the phone at her, just give it a clear line of sight. Because magic.
Besides, she's a blonde looker. People point cellphone cameras, and actual cameras, at good looking women all the time.
And teenagers are infamous for always fiddling with their cellphones.

In this case, its just that we know she is a Whampire, and making sure she knows we know.
Thats why I wrote that section about deliberately catching her eye.


3)Dont sneak when you dont need to; it makes you look sus if there's someone in the vicinity checking for that shit.
There is no need for Subterfuge here; we're here to buy a car openly.

Is it possible that this Whampire is targeting Black Rider because of its supernatural denizen? For instance, she is fellow occult researcher. It can explain interest in the used car.
Possible, but unlikely.
Very few Whampires have even moderate skill with magic, and it isnt easy for them.
 
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If I understand how this lore works, the infernal exalted are empowered by the neverborn in the underworld in the labrynth.Can our character ask them for help somehow or summon one since they gave us power and should be at least neutral towards us because they wouldn't have given the exaltation otherwise.
 
If I understand how this lore works, the infernal exalted are empowered by the neverborn in the underworld in the labrynth.Can our character ask them for help somehow or summon one since they gave us power and should be at least neutral towards us because they wouldn't have given the exaltation otherwise.
No, that is completly wrong.

The Abyssals had their Exaltations tempered with by the Neverborn, for the Infernals it was the Yozi.

Also in this later age we can hope that both factions are gone for good, or at least locked out of reality and deeply asleep.

Edit: And even if we were an Abyssal, the Neverborn are insane semi-conscious undead god-monsters that wanted to kill all existance either out of revenge or to end their own suffering half-existance.
No interaction with them can be a good idea in the greater scheme of things.
 
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