Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X] You can't be fully sure of Jin Tae's intentions, given his family and work. Keep communication professional and arms length. There is too much to risk here

The safer option, as well as the option that is less likely to result in us having to juggle time between Jin Tae and other characters.
 
I suppose my primary misgiving with bringing this unknown guy into the fold is the possibility that after he's got the full picture his report to his boss will be "she thinks these filthy foreign untermenschen actually count as human. Burn her project to the ground."
 
Last edited:
[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.

Ducal Scion Bingo!
 
[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.

At the end of the day, I feel that generalizing based on family ties is kind of the start of a bad path. Extending trust may have trust extended in turn, especially as Cao Chun has made it very clear that he is here in his persona as an Apprentice of the MoI and that his clan ties should not govern his activities. We want the MoI to at least not be actively opposed to this.
 
[X] You can't be fully sure of Jin Tae's intentions, given his family and work. Keep communication professional and arms length. There is too much to risk here
 
Lastly, the close approach gives us more levers to play Jin Tae off of Xuan Shi, distracting him and keeping him off our back when we need it. We can coordinate with Xuan Shi ahead of time no problem, so the risks are minimized. Especially since Savage Seas and Alabaster Sands are both on the other side of the empire; there's rhetorical options open for us to play around with as long as they don't make it into policy, which they won't because we don't want them to be policy and we'd be coordinating things from the shadows. There's a lot of potential in feeding Xuan Shi with unconventional positions to keep Jin Tae off balance or open him up to considering positions that he wouldn't otherwise, if for no other reason than opposition to Xuan Shi. True politics! At last! Mwahahahahaha!

Edit: we can also use Meizhen in this role, though with somewhat less latitude because political and geographic relations with Thousand Lakes are closer, she has a supervisor, and the Bai are very unchill. That said, she does have subordinates who could potentially be used for the role of sending Jin Tae in odd directions using hot takes.

I don't really like the idea of picking of option 1 solely for our friends to mess with him. Both of them have their own reasons for them to be here, and just relegating them to distract someone we didn't have to bring into our circle seems rude.

Meizhen is working as the embassador for the Bai. She has her own political objectives here, and then dragging in a random element for her to deal with doesn't sound nice. I mean, she's already dealing with Zheng Fu a bit.

As for Xuan Shi, picking option 1 specifically so that we can throw him at Tae to annoy, when he's here specifically to help us stop a cycle of conquest (and maybe bring legitimacy if his chicken is rare) seems disrespectful. This will be directly after saying "You know, I haven't really respected you in the past. I apologize. Let's start our relationship anew".

IMO, it'll just be like the Xuan Shi/Luo Zhong incident you complain so much about.

Edit: I won't deny that there won't be Xuan/Jin tension. They're like the Bai/Sun. But LQ has wanted to ask Shi to help for a long while (since the underground fight where she nearly dissolved iirc). She's been putting it off since she could never find the right time, until this turn. After all of that, just using him as a blocker to Jin Tae seems... limited? Awkward? Because we wanted him in the team before we even knew Jin Tae existed
 
Last edited:
I don't really like the idea of picking of option 1 solely for our friends to mess with him. Both of them have their own reasons for them to be here, and just relegating them to distract someone we didn't have to bring into our circle seems rude.

Meizhen is working as the embassador for the Bai. She has her own political objectives here, and then dragging in a random element for her to deal with doesn't sound nice. I mean, she's already dealing with Zheng Fu a bit.

As for Xuan Shi, picking option 1 specifically so that we can throw him at Tae to annoy, when he's here specifically to help us stop a cycle of conquest (and maybe bring legitimacy if his chicken is rare) seems disrespectful. This will be directly after saying "You know, I haven't really respected you in the past. I apologize. Let's start our relationship anew".

IMO, it'll just be like the Xuan Shi/Luo Zhong incident you complain so much about.

Edit: I won't deny that there won't be Xuan/Jin tension. They're like the Bai/Sun. But LQ has wanted to ask Shi to help for a long while (since the underground fight where she nearly dissolved iirc). She's been putting it off since she could never find the right time, until this turn. After all of that, just using him as a blocker to Jin Tae seems... limited? Awkward? Because we wanted him in the team before we even knew Jin Tae existed
Remember, my complaint with how the Luo Zhong incident went down was that after interaction was thrust on us, we chose not to challenge him and make him justify his trespass. Superficially, it might seem like taking a hands off approach keeps Jin Tae further out of Xuan Shi's space, and to a certain extent that's true, but moreso than that it keeps us out of Jin Tae's space, both their spaces by extension, and most fatally of all out of the know. This leaves us, Ling Qi, ill-equipped to back Xuan Shi up when it comes to aspects of foreign diplomacy that are important to him and the Xuan, that they would prefer we don't compromise on for the precedent it sets. Because without engaging with Jin Tae and the MoI's positions seriously, we're likely to just have big blindspots in strategies they're employing to set those precedents.

Look at it another way, more narrativistically. The Jin and MoI have been introduced as antagonistic, or at least skeptical, domestic forces. Part of the plotline is to navigate their influence, preference, and so on. There's also a specific rivalry between Xuan Shi and Jin Tae that has been foreshadowed. I ultimately don't think it works from a story perspective for us to be able to sidestep the complications of their involvement. The entire point of their presence is to provide some level of complication, or they wouldn't be present. With that in mind, it seems preferable for that contact to occur in a context where we're actually making a dedicated effort to dig into what they're doing and influence them on the issues. There's also the fact that, because of that foreshadowed rivalry, minimizing Jin Tae's presence in the story very likely means minimizing Xuan Shi's presence in the story as well; it's like half his available plotlines at the moment. And that's something I don't want to do.

So. Proactively feeling out the threat, even if it exposes us for what we are a bit ahead of schedule, so that we can recognize and respond to any threats that represent challenges to our friends, so that we can work together with those friends in reciprocal aid against any ill-actors. We actually have a decent number of cards to play, but to do that we kind of need the players to be sitting at least in the same room if not at the same table. If everyone is spread out over strung together ad hoc encounters, we can't actually have anything like a strategy. It'll just be putting out fires we don't understand and hoping for the best, forever.

Option 1 has definite risks. But it's the choice that adheres more of the action together and preps it for smoother advancement, in my opinion.

Edit: also, to clarify, at no point did I ever suggest reducing Xuan Shi's role to only messing with Jin Tae. That's an uncharitable reading and/or just making things up. Jin interdiction is just blatantly something Xuan Shi will be tasked with performing be his own clan and he'll want to do it, among his other contributions. Using Xuan Shi to attempt to curate Jin Tae's influence on the project is genuinely in his own interests, and I specifically said "coordinate" with Xuan Shi, not boss him around or anything. It seems crazy to me to shrink away from working with Xuan Shi for both of our benefits because we'd also benefits.
 
Last edited:
I don't see a reason to assume it would require an action commitment. The option suggests bringing him into "the loop" of planning. It's offering him a seat at the table, not booking a private dinner for two.
 
If he's up to something, the quickest way to find out is to keep him close at hand. Professionalism will only make for a minor speedbump if he truly does intent to sabotage matters. He'll likely have less opportunity to cause problems while he's kept under close scrutiny. I know that's not how this vote is framed, so I'm hesitant to vote either way, but to me keeping him close seems superior even if we don't trust his intentions.
 
[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.
 
Remember, my complaint with how the Luo Zhong incident went down was that after interaction was thrust on us, we chose not to challenge him and make him justify his trespass. Superficially, it might seem like taking a hands off approach keeps Jin Tae further out of Xuan Shi's space, and to a certain extent that's true, but moreso than that it keeps us out of Jin Tae's space, both their spaces by extension, and most fatally of all out of the know. This leaves us, Ling Qi, ill-equipped to back Xuan Shi up when it comes to aspects of foreign diplomacy that are important to him and the Xuan, that they would prefer we don't compromise on for the precedent it sets. Because without engaging with Jin Tae and the MoI's positions seriously, we're likely to just have big blindspots in strategies they're employing to set those precedents.

Look at it another way, more narrativistically. The Jin and MoI have been introduced as antagonistic, or at least skeptical, domestic forces. Part of the plotline is to navigate their influence, preference, and so on. There's also a specific rivalry between Xuan Shi and Jin Tae that has been foreshadowed. I ultimately don't think it works from a story perspective for us to be able to sidestep the complications of their involvement. The entire point of their presence is to provide some level of complication, or they wouldn't be present. With that in mind, it seems preferable for that contact to occur in a context where we're actually making a dedicated effort to dig into what they're doing and influence them on the issues. There's also the fact that, because of that foreshadowed rivalry, minimizing Jin Tae's presence in the story very likely means minimizing Xuan Shi's presence in the story as well; it's like half his available plotlines at the moment. And that's something I don't want to do.

So. Proactively feeling out the threat, even if it exposes us for what we are a bit ahead of schedule, so that we can recognize and respond to any threats that represent challenges to our friends, so that we can work together with those friends in reciprocal aid against any ill-actors. We actually have a decent number of cards to play, but to do that we kind of need the players to be sitting at least in the same room if not at the same table. If everyone is spread out over strung together ad hoc encounters, we can't actually have anything like a strategy. It'll just be putting out fires we don't understand and hoping for the best, forever.

Option 1 has definite risks. But it's the choice that adheres more of the action together and preps it for smoother advancement, in my opinion.

Edit: also, to clarify, at no point did I ever suggest reducing Xuan Shi's role to only messing with Jin Tae. That's an uncharitable reading and/or just making things up. Jin interdiction is just blatantly something Xuan Shi will be tasked with performing be his own clan and he'll want to do it, among his other contributions. Using Xuan Shi to attempt to curate Jin Tae's influence on the project is genuinely in his own interests, and I specifically said "coordinate" with Xuan Shi, not boss him around or anything. It seems crazy to me to shrink away from working with Xuan Shi for both of our benefits because we'd also benefits.

Honestly, all of that sounds like a convoluted and overcomplicated plan pretty uncharaceristic of Ling Qi. It completely relies in us being so overhelming more political savvy than Jin as to be able to lead him in a merry chase "from the shadows" through our friends, and he being utterly unable to competently follow Cao's orders and his clan or his own personal agenda, in the case he has one. It's also really weird to plan to use our friends like that without consulting them first.
And you want to carry out this apparently masterful manipulation at the same time we are deciding our general course of action for the summit. Because that is what we would be leaving Jin into. We, together with GG and Renxiang, are going to compile the demands of all the relevant antendees, prioritize some over others and reach a compromise. Adding Jin's mere presence in the last minute would greatly disrupt the discussion, since people would be apprehensive of him. And that's not including any veto or "suggestion" that the MoI may try to impose through him, specially about the most transgresive proposals.
On top of all that, we would have to "distract him with Xuan Shi from the shadows" at the same time we do the Wang Quest line, try to get the security form both sides to work together, speak with the Argent Sect and so on. I just don't think it's feasible.

I also disagree that not letting Jin in would leave in the dark about the MoI's movements. First of all, I doubt that he would let something like that slip so easily. Again, he is hardly going to be incompetent. Second, the objective of letting him is to eventually change his mind, at least a little bit. How useful or feasible that would be is up to debate. He is just a fresh rookie, after all.
In any case, with either option we would be in communication with the MoI. We should state our plans and decisions sincerely, and not try to fool or trick them. That's different to letting them into the inner makings of those plans.

Our top priority should be to reach a successful agreement at the summit. Once that happens, we can invite the MoI to supervise things closely so there aren't any doubts about these "barbarians". We can do that by letting Jin in into the decision-making then. That way there wouldn't be any need to "distract him with his rivalry with Xuan Shi".
 
[x] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.
 
[X] You can't be fully sure of Jin Tae's intentions, given his family and work. Keep communication professional and arms length. There is too much to risk here
 
[X] You can't be fully sure of Jin Tae's intentions, given his family and work. Keep communication professional and arms length. There is too much to risk here
 
Honestly, all of that sounds like a convoluted and overcomplicated plan pretty uncharaceristic of Ling Qi. It completely relies in us being so overhelming more political savvy than Jin as to be able to lead him in a merry chase "from the shadows" through our friends, and he being utterly unable to competently follow Cao's orders and his clan or his own personal agenda, in the case he has one. It's also really weird to plan to use our friends like that without consulting them first.
And you want to carry out this apparently masterful manipulation at the same time we are deciding our general course of action for the summit. Because that is what we would be leaving Jin into. We, together with GG and Renxiang, are going to compile the demands of all the relevant antendees, prioritize some over others and reach a compromise. Adding Jin's mere presence in the last minute would greatly disrupt the discussion, since people would be apprehensive of him. And that's not including any veto or "suggestion" that the MoI may try to impose through him, specially about the most transgresive proposals.
On top of all that, we would have to "distract him with Xuan Shi from the shadows" at the same time we do the Wang Quest line, try to get the security form both sides to work together, speak with the Argent Sect and so on. I just don't think it's feasible.

I also disagree that not letting Jin in would leave in the dark about the MoI's movements. First of all, I doubt that he would let something like that slip so easily. Again, he is hardly going to be incompetent. Second, the objective of letting him is to eventually change his mind, at least a little bit. How useful or feasible that would be is up to debate. He is just a fresh rookie, after all.
In any case, with either option we would be in communication with the MoI. We should state our plans and decisions sincerely, and not try to fool or trick them. That's different to letting them into the inner makings of those plans.

Our top priority should be to reach a successful agreement at the summit. Once that happens, we can invite the MoI to supervise things closely so there aren't any doubts about these "barbarians". We can do that by letting Jin in into the decision-making then. That way there wouldn't be any need to "distract him with his rivalry with Xuan Shi".
It's not really that complicated or time-consuming. It's as simple as responding to positions from Jin Tae we're not fond of with coordinated strategies from our allies. Who outnumber him. There's a variety of tacts to take as well. Somebody could respond with a maximalist opposing idea that gets bargained down to a compromise we're more comfortable with. Or interpersonal/political disputes could be taken advantage of to preempt a position he's likely to take, make it look like suspicious terrain to him instead. Or something as simple as just taking different tones; one person is harsh while a second comes after them in a more conciliatory bearing.

It's pretty straightforward, and it's not limited to Jin Tae at all. If there's an ounce of political savvy between us and all our trusted allies, we'll be coordinating rhetorical strategies against literally every other party present at the negotiating table, Imperial and foreign.

The tension between Jin Tae and Xuan Shi is just one identifiable lever available, not the whole of what our strategy should be or how Xuan Shi should be valued.
 
[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.
 
[X] You can't be fully sure of Jin Tae's intentions, given his family and work. Keep communication professional and arms length. There is too much to risk here
 
[X] Take a close approach, allow him into the decision and planning loop of most of their actions. Keep him close, and maybe, just maybe outright convince him that you're right.
 
I Don't think i agree with the way you have defined a professional relationship will look like here @AbeoLogos . IMO the best example of current professional relationship we have is duo huangling. We have no problem of speculating about her motives,her actions and how we react to them just because we didn't have a close friendship with her. The narrative problem with luo problem was that it came out of nowhere. It wouldn't be the same thing here. We will still get information even with the professional relationship,not be blindsided likein luo case.
I also have your problem with whether this should be ling qi's decision. If we had a chance to take this decision after a meeting with rexiang, GG and xia lin or even better a meeting with meizhen and xuan shi i might consider this but getting jin tae into close circle is Frankly a insult to our allies at this point
 
[X] You can't be fully sure of Jin Tae's intentions, given his family and work. Keep communication professional and arms length. There is too much to risk here
 
I also have your problem with whether this should be ling qi's decision. If we had a chance to take this decision after a meeting with rexiang, GG and xia lin or even better a meeting with meizhen and xuan shi i might consider this but getting jin tae into close circle is Frankly a insult to our allies at this point
Yeah, this is my biggest problem with that option. I don't want to bring him in without getting feedback from the others first.
 
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Oct 12, 2022 at 9:06 AM, finished with 108 posts and 68 votes.
 
Back
Top