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Grand Army of the Republic: A Star Wars Plan Quest

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Themarineguy said:
We know OOC that Palps planned to destroy Dooku, and Dooku hoped to take out Palps and Palps intended to establish absolute personal control, but Jango I guess hasn't quite realized that.
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Oshha said:
You think you are underestimating how useful hindsight is. We know what the Sith are planning, but Jango only knows that they are Sith, they are secretly controlling both sides and that they are building a secret clone army to be led by the Jedi and turn turned on the Jedi via mind-control chips. He can guess that the Sith want galactic domination as usual, but he has no idea what form that will take.
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Even in universe Sith Backstabbing Syndrome is a known and constant failing. I still think your overcompensating for OOC knowledge, if Jango wasn't a Mando with with a education in their military history that includes fighting with and against Jedi and Sith he might not catch on. But a Mando in his position is the perfect person to know what the Sith are going for. Maybe not the details but enough that the details don't matter.
 
Oshha said:
You can also go into the negative stats on Facilities. That is also an option.
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We could.

I feel like there are more options to address this problem than "Do it and get into the Negatives" and "Don't do it and stay out of the Negatives", but within the mechanical framework you've set up I don't think we'll be able to explore them, which frustrates me a small bit because if we can do the math out here I feel like Jango can do the math ICly and start to try to figure out additional options. Maybe spending Administration Dice to start buying out space on other planets? I don't know.

But it feels like our options are going to be between "find out what happens when you stay in the Negatives" and "find out what happens when you fail the Sith", and I regret not caring enough about the Final Plan vote to look into things and potentially think about the implications of the timescale needed for the Clone Expansions.

Huh. Actually I have a thought.

To the Players:

What if we go all in on Cloning? Complete this stage this turn and get set up to complete the next stage within the next two turns?

We'll activate whatever the Negative Facility Problem is and have the next 6ish turns to unlock new actions to try to solve these problems, rather than have things tick along until we can't do anything about it anymore?

@Oshha is the immediately above a feasible understanding of how these mechanics work based on what you've said before on the topic of things unlocking and happening due to the success, failure, and lack of resources to meet demands?
 
Walliseatscheese said:
But it feels like our options are going to be between "find out what happens when you stay in the Negatives" and "find out what happens when you fail the Sith", and I regret not caring enough about the Final Plan vote to look into things and potentially think about the implications of the timescale needed for the Clone Expansions.
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A very big factor I think was that we were under the assumption the facilities cost for each Clone Expansion was 32 per phase, not 64 per phase. 32 would have probably made the goals realistic, 64 basically left us at the mercy of dice rolls and getting the facilities plan right from the start. We also have to keep in mind it does not just stay in the negative, but negative with 32 exposure since 11D over the next two turns means +5/turn and this is before Jedi Investigation modifiers.
 
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Andmeuths said:
A very big factor I think was that we were under the assumption the facilities cost for each Clone Expansion was 32 per phase, not 64 per phase. 32 would have probably made the goals realistic, 64 basically left us at the mercy of dice rolls and getting the facilities plan right from the start. We also have to keep in mind it does not just stay in the negative, but negative with 32 exposure since 11D over the next two turns means +5/turn and this is before Jedi Investigation modifiers.
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I'm willing to go for it.

I'd say our two extremes option wise are to fully commit to Orbital Defenses to shoot the Sith out of the sky when they show up to ask why we're behind on the Plan, or to dive deep into Facility Debt immediately to unlock actions to mitigate it as fast as possible.
 
Walliseatscheese said:
@Oshha is the immediately above a feasible understanding of how these mechanics work based on what you've said before on the topic of things unlocking and happening due to the success, failure, and lack of resources to meet demands?
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Part of it is that you are in the endgame so you are starting to feel the pressure, another part of it is that Darth Sidious has not imposed reasonable demands on you and another part is poor player decisions in terms of optimising the decisions. Like putting dice on more shipyards instead of building the dreadnoughts a couple turns back or going for local construction instead of expanding off-world like you did last turn. It was possible to meet all of your goals without dipping in the negatives if you made the right choices, but for whatever reasons, the thread didn't go the most optimal "Numbers go up" route and so now the most optimal "Numbers go up" route is now closed to you.

You also got to consider your goals versus those of the Sith. The plan goals are what the Sith expect you to do, but they aren't necessarily what you have to do though you should consider the consequences of openly crossing the Sith.

Walliseatscheese said:
I feel like there are more options to address this problem than "Do it and get into the Negatives" and "Don't do it and stay out of the Negatives", but within the mechanical framework you've set up I don't think we'll be able to explore them, which frustrates me a small bit because if we can do the math out here I feel like Jango can do the math ICly and start to try to figure out additional options. Maybe spending Administration Dice to start buying out space on other planets? I don't know.
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Jango's math is to appease the Sith this year and then spend next year preparing to double-cross them instead of trying to meet the final plan goals.
 
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Walliseatscheese said:
I'd say our two extremes option wise are to fully commit to Orbital Defenses to shoot the Sith out of the sky when they show up to ask why we're behind on the Plan, or to dive deep into Facility Debt immediately to unlock actions to mitigate it as fast as possible.
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Here's a possible plan to look at if you want to go down this route:

[] Trigger the Crunch
Infrastructure 8D+3FD
-[] Off-World Expansion (Phase 5) 8D+3FD 550R
Industry 10D
-[] Democracy-class Dreadnought Construction Aurek (Phase 3) 5D 250R
-[] Democracy-class Dreadnought Construction Besh (Phase 2) 5D 250R
Cloning 5D
-[] Expand Clone Production (Phase 13) 5D 75R
Training 7D
-[] Clone Trainers (Phase 23) 7D 100R
Research 7D
-[] Slowed Ageing (Phase 3) 7D 210R
Administration 7D
-[] Burying Secrets 4D
-[] Expand Venator-class Star Destroyer Contract (Phase 1) 3D 15R

Basically, it triggers the crisis right now. Even if the next two phases of Off-world expansion procs, we will be at the following numbers after the expansion:

Facilities: 30+16- 64 = -18 Facilities
Trainers: 36+2 -32 = +6 Trainers
Logistics: 39+15-64 = -10 Logistics (automatically resolved next turn)
Exposure : 22+11-6 = 27 Exposure

Here are some ways facilities can be clawed back
1. We can reduce the space devoted to local food production by one phase for 16 Facilities, but our logistics will be in a tight spot for a few turns. In the status quo, our logistics will just meet up with Clone expansions at the deadline, if we trigger it now, the shortage will resolve itself next turn.
2. We can reduce the space devoted to the Blaster and Armor factories (3 phases each) , they are negligible compared to off-world production.
3. We can claw back on Starfighter factory space (5 phases), I believe a lot of our production of Starfighters now rely on our orbital shipyards anyway.
4. We can walk back on the last phase of Training Facilities, but it will leave us at a Trainer Shortage after the next phase of Clone expansions
 
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[X] Trigger the Crunch

Personaly i would like to at lest try to get the goals done, if nothing else we are going to need a lot more clones when the war starts.
 
Andmeuths said:
[X]Plan Kriff the Sith
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Umm, why does the plan involve ordering more Venators when we can get Valour cruisers?
Oshha said:
The final design is also impressive in its own way though it doesn't live up to what Kuat Drive Yard assured you. The Venator-class Star Destroyer has an incredibly large amount of hangar space as it can support over four hundred starfighters in addition to two thousand troops and twenty thousand tons of supplies. Unfortunately, it is only good as a carrier as the Venator-class makes for a poor frontline combatant as it is severely undergunned for its size with a mere ten turbolaser cannons and only thirty point defence turrets in addition to four proton torpedo tubes. And while Venator-class has incredibly strong deflector shields, its armour plating is lacking.
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And here's the Valour-class:
Oshha said:
The fifth design is the Valour-class Cruiser, another ancient design that has the potential to be useful for your clone army. The Valour-class is an expensive design for its size, but it was designed to wage war against contemporary powers and that shows. Built to take on the Harrower-class Dreadnoughts of the Sith Empire three and a half thousand years ago, the Valour prioritises speed and firepower over durability.

With two dozen heavy turbolaser cannons, several concussion missile launchers and proton torpedo launchers, a pair of heavy ion cannon turrets and a score of point defence guns, the Valour-class has plenty of firepower for its size while its speed and agility is enough to let it run rings any modern capital ship and match smaller warships such as corvettes and frigates. The hull strength and deflector shield generators are about average for a ship of its size while the warship has massive hangar space, capable of carrying up to nearly three hundred starfighters or over fifty shuttles though it usually used a mixture of the two.

Requiring a crew of little under two thousand, the only downside of the Valour-class Cruiser is its cruiser and in this day and age, that is debatable. What might have been expensive by Rendili standards back in the day is only a bit more expensive than what Kuat Drive Yard charges for their capital ships.
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Or is it to limit Exposure?
 
Kyr'am said:
I believe this is the reason, yes. Particularly due to the fact that we're rather close to 25 Exposure and by necessity have to keep gaining more.
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The trigger the crunch plan takes exposure above 25 to 28. Even in Kriff the Sith, we have to pray offscreen dice rolls to favor us, if it works we will be down to 20.

Ternasta said:
Or is it to limit Exposure?
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Our exposure situation is mostly out of our hands now that hidden dice rolls can literally undo all five exposure reductions from burying secrets as it has done a few turns back with the Crit fail on Dreadnought production. But at this point we have literally no way of feasibly getting Facilities without more exposure. Our situation is really that bad, and the turn that probably forced us into this corner happened quite soon after the quest returned from a month's hiatus.

Literally we cannot afford 3 exposure on 3 rounds of Valor when we literally are tanking 11 exposure per turn just to even have a prayer of narrowly missing the necessary facilities for Clone Production. We promised the Sith three rounds of Cloning which added up to 196 facilities but no one questioned 10 weeks back whether it was doable in 12 turns and whether we can pursue orbital defences at the same time.

I am convinced that even if we make it past this round of Cloning, Kamino might be underdefended because of the lack of facilities to fund Orbital Defences and Shield Generators past maybe around 3 phases. If you want defences , because of how poor our Infrastructure modifiers are (+20/Dice is one of the lowest of all our stats) and how hard it is to get facilities, and how much progress the Orbital defences represent (8D might not even give you a phase if the rolls are bad past Phase 2) you have to start now or risk a half-assed network.

c.j. said:
Personaly i would like to at lest try to get the goals done, if nothing else we are going to need a lot more clones when the war starts.
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I don't think anyone has done the math showing it's possible to get another 64+34 Facilities for the remaining two Phases of Clone expansion and have a meaningful Defensive network (currently 2 facilities in Phase 2, but I don't know whether it'd start claiming to 4 facilities in Phase 3 , 8 Facilities in Phase 4 and so on).

In theory, I think the next phase of Clone Production might still be compatible with Phase 4 Orbital Defences (2+4+8= 14) facilities since you just need 2 more rounds of off-world expansion to fund it if we end this year at -2 Facilities. But this probably means no further phases of Shield Generators either, and it leaves our Exposure at a parlous state still.
 
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Just to break down the Math I've done so far - this is relevant for both Trigger the Crunch and Kriff the Sith:, do correct me if I'm wrong.

- Phase 5 Off World Facilities: 140 Progress
- Phase 6 Off World Facilities: 350 Progress
- Phase 7 Off World Facilities: 400 Progress
- Phase 8 Off Worlde Facilities: 450 Progress
- Phase 9 Off World Facilities: 500 Progress
Phase 5 -8: 1340 Progress
Phase 5-9: 1840 Progress

With 22 Infrastucture Dies (11/turn for 2 turns) - 22D100 + 22*20 ->
1340 Progress - 94.06% chance of -2 Facilities Shortage
1840 Progress - 1.62% Chance of +6 Facilities Surplus

With 14 Infrastructure Dies (3+11 Dies) - 14D100+14*20->
1340 Progress: 0.04% Chance
1840 Progress: Impossible

For those voting for Kriff the Sith be reminded. The plan makes it virtually impossible for us to achieve the next Phase of Clone Production by the deadline, we are voting to give up on this expansion and building orbital defences instead, and getting our Exposure down. Bot Commander put out another plan earlier on that didn't trigger the crunch, and gave us a 94.06% chance to only be at -2 Facilities deficit come the new year, but he didn't enter it into the tally - if you don't want to Trigger the Crunch and force a facilities shortage in hopes it opens up options to claw back facilities ( a gambit on QM decisions by the way), that's another alternative.
 
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