That and I don't see how it's logical to switch a 11% potential completion rate drop off for a gain of 5%. Overflow or not, the current Chicago phase is useful to complete ASAP for the Abatement values alone.
It's not about switching up the completion chance. We're not looking to do Chicago Phase 4, so any rollover points aren't going to be useful there. But we are looking to finish Mecca through to Phase 3, so switching from a +15 Infra die to a +35 Tiberium die means 20 more progress going towards Mecca beyond simply helping the current phase finish.
 
It's not about switching up the completion chance. We're not looking to do Chicago Phase 4, so any rollover points aren't going to be useful there. But we are looking to finish Mecca through to Phase 3, so switching from a +15 Infra die to a +35 Tiberium die means 20 more progress going towards Mecca beyond simply helping the current phase finish.
And my opinion on that is finishing the current phase of Chicago is just as important as the first and any remaining phases of Mecca. Mecca may be an important city to at least start on in order to preempt any Nod plans from using it first, but it's not an urgent one to finish ASAP either. It's not as if the PS it provides are sorely needed any time soon anyways, while the Abatement from Chicago are worth getting more assurance to finish at this turn from higher completion rates.
 
The really important thing about mecca is the message it send to the yellow zones(the global muslim community) which is that we are fighting for everyone on earth and the potential to flip neutral and nod warlords! Which would be a massive coup and with 2 instances of us allowing former nod people into the gdi we will likely start seeing even more nod defection then!
 
Accepting the TCN from Kane is something to be done only if we're absolutely desperate in my opinion. Kane's first ascension plot was the World Altering Missile, I have absolutely zero faith that any other attempt will be less destructive, CNC4 canon be dammned.
 
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And my opinion on that is finishing the current phase of Chicago is just as important as the first and any remaining phases of Mecca. Mecca may be an important city to at least start on in order to preempt any Nod plans from using it first, but it's not an urgent one to finish ASAP either. It's not as if the PS it provides are sorely needed any time soon anyways, while the Abatement from Chicago are worth getting more assurance to finish at this turn from higher completion rates.
We're likely to finish both this turn. I just want 20 more progress on Mecca Phase 2. It's a small optimization but it should help.
 
Might I suggest agriculture mechanisation to help hit our food goal since it will let us do more with what we have.
It's a very attractive project, especially in the first stage; the problem is that it consumes Capital Goods (we have many other options for +Food that don't), and Energy (we have at least one option for +Food that doesn't, though most do).

So our decision to take or not take it will be contingent on our Capital Goods supply and the needs of other Capital Goods-consuming projects, especially the military.

The good news is, we don't really need this project to meet our short-term Food targets.

Turians: We will either get along famously, both sides will side eye each other with guns in hand, or shoot each other until the other side sues for peace. GDI would get Turian culture on good level, but would react very badly to an alien incursion. The scrin left scars. Really depends on if talking or shooting happens for the initial contact.
Yeah.

The one piece of good news is that we'd be encountering them elsewhere. Assuming they don't just randomly open fire for stupid reasons, we'll at least be aware that we came to them and hopefully that will help.

Asari: Blue alien space babes, way better than green alien space babes! The most diplomatic faction, though overbearing. Though some of the colonies could be pretty trigger happy. Could cause some friction due to Asari looking down on humans for being "young" or just dying young.

Salarians: NOD flashbacks intensifies. The focus on tech, stealth, and skullduggery would remind GDI of NOD. Could bond over geeking out, or cause problems when they try to steal tiberuim.

Krogan: The genophage could inspire sympathy, but if the first contact is via violence I would not be surprised if tunchaktka gets some shiny green crystals. Either by throwing them at them or some being taken as loot. Tiberuim enhanced krogan, just what you didn't know the galaxy was missing.
You are not wrong though I can't imagine GDI being bastardy enough to throw tiberium at the krogan as a weapon given what humanity's been through by that point.

And... well, given that all other galactic races except the krogan are short-lived compared to the asari, I assume the asari are broadly speaking used to not pissing off aliens short-lived compared to themselves.

Getting rid of him is a major selling point. The guy will just not die, and there are video/photo records of him from 50+ years ago that show he hasn't aged at all. Coupled with the fact he has survived things like being shot in the head, making him someone else's problem could be pretty attractive. Also avoiding tib war 4, fighting against him in tib war 4 would really really suck given in how bad shape the planet is in. Because the first thing to fall would be tib mining and containment.
Yeah, especially since he'd be fighting us after (in this notional scenario) we explicitly refused to build the TCN he needs built. At that point, assuming his real goal of "ascension" requires the TCN, and we have every reason to think it does... Well, he's a bit short on options. His endgame would seem to require him to either replay that World Altering Missile gambit (not gonna fly, literally, with GDI having robust ASAT and anti-missile defenses), or to somehow conquer the world intact enough that the surviving industrial base can be put to the task of building the TCN himself.

And the downside of our current situation is that we HAVE preserved and expanded enough industrial base that Kane could conceivably do that. If his focus in Tib War Four was on seizing industrial infrastructure and conquering civilian populations without slaughtering them, he might well be able to take over enough Blue Zones more-or-less-intact-ish that whatever was left would be, say, roughly vaguely equal to what GDI actually had left in canon by 2062.

So if Kane has to say "fuckit, back to my original plan of total world domination and making the survivors build my TCN for me," then he has at least some hope of succeeding on the basis of that plan. Whereas it would have been a hopeless strategy for him in the canon timeline because there was so little left of civilization by 2062 that a fourth war would have reduced both sides to mutually assured destruction as the tiberium finally overtook everything.

Almost certainly. Fortress towns are still warzones under regular attack from nod and/or it's still a yellow zone with ion storms, tiberium, and all the attendant problems therein.
True. Moving them into Yellow Zone arcologies farther back from the front lines would probably help. And those arcologies are a straight-up, relatively low-cost +Housing option.

The problem, though, is that people aren't gonna want to move from a Blue Zone commieblock to a Green Zone arcology in large numbers, so that only gets us so far by letting us shift Yellow Zone civilians into safer and more comfortable residences. We still have to make the Blue Zoners happy with their housing situation.

GDI on the other hand, has very compact dense cities in the blue zones, where a lot of people are packed into high density housing and arcologies which are all in one housing developments. So a lot of people have things very local, home, work, shops. So don't need personal transport, along with good rail transport and (I think) bus services. And stuff is either in walking distance or can be gotten to using public transport.

Rural areas, effectively yellow zones in our case, particularly fortress towns, well. The general public there, again, have everything packed into a small area and simply have little need or desire to leave the bubble of safety the fortress provides because outside the walls is a case of "here be dragons" said dragons in this case being tiberium and nod flame tanks.

Sure some motor vehicles would be nice for those who need them, but as is with the arcologies and high density duplexes combined with good quality rail, they're not really needed. And without large amounts of traffic the cities are cleaner, with less traffic and without long commutes and morning rush hours, at least, not those involving heaps of vehicle traffic.
Yeah, but as the density of the cities decreases (and even building duplex housing has this effect), you still have more strain on transportation. Remember that Logistics isn't just tracking personal vehicles on the one hand and airlift/sealift/freight trains on the other. It's tracking the availability of buses, light rail, and all the other modes of transport used as mass transit in urban areas too.

I'm not inherently opposed to housing grants and the likely result of that. But in my humble opinion such housing should be a supplement to our own efforts, rather than the main source of it. Tiberium being what it is, the bulk of our housing should be well defensible and concentrated. Beyond that, I enjoy the concept of arcologies having everything within easy walking distance, and the resulting lack of need for motor vehicles. Most if not all of our cars would be electric of course, cutting down on pollution and those who live near rail lines likely need good sound proofing. But there's definitely something to be said for less noisy cities.
I don't disagree (although if everything is crowded into big apartment buildings and arcologies, there may be less noise but you're a lot closer to its sources; it can be a sideways move rather than an upwards one).

The problem is, well... holy shit the arcologies are expensive and each phase is a huge investment.

Ithillid has said he will be using the pre-automobile version of suburbs for this. So, like the suburbs that were being built around New York City in the 1800s, with public transit links to the main cities.
In other words, very little like the modern conception.
A lot of people seem to be arguing from their RL experience/ideology, which is only vaguely applicable to the situation in-quest.
GOD, I KNOW, RIGHT!?
 
Oh so they are considering him as non-human then, fair enough and it probably helps that he's what suppose to be over a century old at least going by modern records and what recording they have of him.
It's like, at this point, either he's not human, or he's human but he's a wizard who sold his soul to the Devil or something. The difference hardly matters, but since GDI does not, as a matter of policy, believe in actual magic, "he's an alien" seems the more likely hypothesis. Especially since it's been known for quite some time that aliens exist... and it's suspicious that Kane seems to know a hell of a lot more about alien affairs than anyone else on Earth does.

GDI must be Victorious. NOD must be defeated. Kane must answer for his crimes.
You say this, and a number of GDI citizens and officials will agree with you.

But another number will, if convincingly offered such a deal, be prepared to accept the exchange "never have to worry about tiberium again, and probably never have to worry about Kane or Nod again, in exchange for him just... leaving the planet like he's wanted to do all along."

From my perspective, it's ensuring a Threat is neutralised. There is no absolute guarantee that Kane and his circle would honor their words. There is no guarantee that they won't comeback to haunt GDI in the future or stab us in the back the moment its most convenient. Kane and his circle have access to technology unfathomably advanced that it makes current GDI military tech look like cavemen learning how to sharpen sticks with rocks.

The good thing is, they don't have the resource to make this wonderfully powerful tech.

But GDI does. So when Kane gives us the TCN in exchange for said resources?

You might as well give bullets to the guy holding a gun to your face.
That begs the question.

Who is giving bullets to who?

Is the problem that Kane lacks the resources to build his dangerous technology... or is it that GDI lacks the technology to take proper advantage of their superior resources? Who gains more from this exchange, potentially?

In canon, well... it turns out that Kane is mostly dealing in good faith and that the TCN actually will ensure humanity's survival, which makes the exchange equitable. If you don't take that for granted (say, the position of Louise James, who I suspect would be nodding along to your arguments here), then Kane clearly gains more... but GDI agreed to this because of desperation.

Being less desperate, and having "flee to SPACE" as our backup plan, means that we are in a better position to evaluate Kane's claims for good faith. For instance, we can make demands and impose conditions about the 'price' of our continued operations.

For instance:

1) We can demand that Kane do most of the heavy lifting in subduing any Nod separatists who aren't responsive to the new plan. This weakens his forces and strengthens our relative position, or at least enables us to avoid being relatively weakened by spending so many of our resources on the TCN so that he cannot stage some kind of conventional backstab.

2) We can demand detailed explanations of as much of the systems as possible, and test the TCN components' performance against what those explanations indicate. Because we have more options and a much better set-up tiberium manipulation establishment, we are in a better position to establish this.

3) Notably, it's actually quite possible that Kane will, after an initial period of good faith dealing, choose to reveal what his agenda is. Because while openly admitting that he's leaving the planet and bringing along anyone who worships him may anger some parts of GDI who won't let him get away willingly... those are the same parts already unwilling to deal with him. A lot of people will just be happy to know he's gone and probably never wants to come back. Of course, Kane will have to hold something back because otherwise we might get the blueprints, decide we have no further need of him, and neutralize his ability to achieve his own goals... But he won't be able to hold back as much in this timeline.

P.S
I'd also like to add in that the TCN would canonically be connected to the Threshold-19 portal facility. A facility he controls. A facility we cannot hope to take or destroy, but only keep inert. A facility where all the Tiberium power and materials may end up being funnelled to.

The TCN network is a potential Trojan Horse that GDI would unwittingly become so dependent on that they cannot destroy it. Imagine having to be forced to protect a world wide tiberium gathering facility thats feeding and funding the war machine and economy of your enemy as well as the new alien tech toys they would use against you. It ain't fun chief.
That's the reason to study it carefully and test parts of the network before completing and firing up the whole thing.

One complication is that Kane has to leave Threshold 19 in order to make this alliance work... which means he is making himself vulnerable (to being imprisoned if not to being killed). It's a gamble on his part, and one that in turn gives GDI some negotiating power in this situation.
 
It's like, at this point, either he's not human, or he's human but he's a wizard who sold his soul to the Devil or something. The difference hardly matters, but since GDI does not, as a matter of policy, believe in actual magic, "he's an alien" seems the more likely hypothesis. Especially since it's been known for quite some time that aliens exist... and it's suspicious that Kane seems to know a hell of a lot more about alien affairs than anyone else on Earth does.
Yeah Alien would make sense to InOps at his point since there's been confirmation that they exist via the Scrin would make a lot more sense then magic.
 
It's like, at this point, either he's not human, or he's human but he's a wizard who sold his soul to the Devil or something. The difference hardly matters, but since GDI does not, as a matter of policy, believe in actual magic, "he's an alien" seems the more likely hypothesis. Especially since it's been known for quite some time that aliens exist... and it's suspicious that Kane seems to know a hell of a lot more about alien affairs than anyone else on Earth does.

You say this, and a number of GDI citizens and officials will agree with you.

But another number will, if convincingly offered such a deal, be prepared to accept the exchange "never have to worry about tiberium again, and probably never have to worry about Kane or Nod again, in exchange for him just... leaving the planet like he's wanted to do all along."

That begs the question.

Who is giving bullets to who?

Is the problem that Kane lacks the resources to build his dangerous technology... or is it that GDI lacks the technology to take proper advantage of their superior resources? Who gains more from this exchange, potentially?

In canon, well... it turns out that Kane is mostly dealing in good faith and that the TCN actually will ensure humanity's survival, which makes the exchange equitable. If you don't take that for granted (say, the position of Louise James, who I suspect would be nodding along to your arguments here), then Kane clearly gains more... but GDI agreed to this because of desperation.

Being less desperate, and having "flee to SPACE" as our backup plan, means that we are in a better position to evaluate Kane's claims for good faith. For instance, we can make demands and impose conditions about the 'price' of our continued operations.

For instance:

1) We can demand that Kane do most of the heavy lifting in subduing any Nod separatists who aren't responsive to the new plan. This weakens his forces and strengthens our relative position, or at least enables us to avoid being relatively weakened by spending so many of our resources on the TCN so that he cannot stage some kind of conventional backstab.

2) We can demand detailed explanations of as much of the systems as possible, and test the TCN components' performance against what those explanations indicate. Because we have more options and a much better set-up tiberium manipulation establishment, we are in a better position to establish this.

3) Notably, it's actually quite possible that Kane will, after an initial period of good faith dealing, choose to reveal what his agenda is. Because while openly admitting that he's leaving the planet and bringing along anyone who worships him may anger some parts of GDI who won't let him get away willingly... those are the same parts already unwilling to deal with him. A lot of people will just be happy to know he's gone and probably never wants to come back. Of course, Kane will have to hold something back because otherwise we might get the blueprints, decide we have no further need of him, and neutralize his ability to achieve his own goals... But he won't be able to hold back as much in this timeline.

That's the reason to study it carefully and test parts of the network before completing and firing up the whole thing.

One complication is that Kane has to leave Threshold 19 in order to make this alliance work... which means he is making himself vulnerable (to being imprisoned if not to being killed). It's a gamble on his part, and one that in turn gives GDI some negotiating power in this situation.
Are population must be hiding lots of war fatigue by just thinking that he and nod wouldn't agree to any sort of deal at all it is probably affecting thier health deeply and will take his deal if it looks reasonable at a heartbeat you think?
 
Yeah. That is one of the low rolls. And probably ends up with you gearing up to face the universe with the assumption that alien life is hostile until proven otherwise. Once is happenstance, Twice is Coincidence, Three times is a pattern.

It be hilarious if this happens. Especially if the options possible are all militaristic towards the Citadel at that point. It'd be meta as heck as players try to wrangle it.

Kane is a DMPC in all the worst ways

Even funnier in that he's not our DMs PC.

The letter dropped from nerveless hands as Dr. Granger stared into space. After almost a minute, he looked down at his hands. Nothing was wrong. No blotches, no rashes. Just...his hands.
He'd go get checked out, but somehow, he knew there had been no poison. Deep in his heart, he knew it had been a sincere letter of praise and well-wishes.

Which made the empty pit in his stomach yawn all the wider

You really nailed Kane. Read it in Joseph Kucan's voice.

Kane wouldn't show up without contingencies for if that happens. He would likely make some of them known ahead of time, but set up so that GDI would not be able to prevent them.
Hence, negotiation to reach a situation that he and GDI can live with. I'd very much like to have a lot of leverage for that negotiation, but do not believe that we can get to a point where we can tell Kane to fuck off without unpleasant consequences.

Although the GDI ruling council fist fighting Kane for the Tacitus is hilarious.

"Gentlemen you can't fight in here, This is a war room."
 
There is still plenty of Abaitment options to stall for that time. Hell, it shown just this update how long it lasted. Also take back planet is one option but there is also space colonisation that opened up of that fails.

Hate my suggestion or opinion if you want but atleast be civil about it and say you'd disagree. Rude.
Since your "suggestion" boils down to absolutist extremist vengeance at all costs, it is questionable whether your position carries necessary ethos to argue that others are being rude by dismissing it in blunt terms.

It's the Global Defense Initiative, not the Kill Nod Initiative.

Tiberium spreads. Blue Zones do not always stay blue. Tiberium mutates, we are going to start losing abatement soon. Even if the thread decides to go for the the TCN, it will take literal decades to complete, and while that happens Tib will continue to spread, and we will desperately try to stop it with more abatement until TCN completion. And that's assuming we don't get any particularly bad NOD attacks in the next decade that speed tiberium growth further.

It's incredibly short-sighted to assume we can keep the blue zones as they are until we have the TCN is deployed. Most likely, some of the blue zone housing we are building now will be yellow zone housing by the end of the quest. Building arcologies prepares for this eventuality.
I suppose, but it's also a really big investment. Sometimes, investing more up front in preparation for a distant eventuality far down the road (in this case, easily 50-100 turns down the road or more) turns out to be a bad idea, because of the opportunity costs.

No, I mean this military project:

[ ] Zone Emergency Medical Evacuation Vehicle Development
Medical care in Red Zones is a significant problem. Time, even more than in normal circumstances, is of the essence. Not only is the casualty bleeding in most cases, there is severe risk of Tiberium infection, and the only medical care available is usually back at base. A fast hovering armored personnel carrier is a secondary concern, but one that should significantly enhance survivability.
(Progress 0/40: 10 resources per die)

Though we won't know it's true costs until development is done, the description makes it sound like it will cost logistics. If one military project eats logistics, others can as well. It was more of an example that there are many things that will require logistics, and housing may not be the best use.
1) I think you're imagining "this sounds like it'll cost Logistics," because this sounds like ZOCOM wants a very specific type of vehicle, probably not in very large numbers either because there aren't that many actual ZOCOM troopers to begin with. There's no reason this should cost Logistics any more than "manufacture tanks for the Ground Forces" costs Logistics.

And then you take this probably-imagined Logistics cost and generalize to other, entirely notional, projects with such a cost.

I'm not saying it's impossible for us to ever have a military project with a Logistics cost, but right here? You are building speculative castles in the air.

There is going to be demand, but given our progress so far I believe we have earned the benefit of the doubt from the Developmentalists. We don't have to care about IF and the FMP. We can easily start drip-feeding arcologies the one or two dice a turn that tidal plants get after this stage is finished, since further phases give diminishing power returns. Throw even more dice if we stop giving every single free die to the military.

Remember, we are halfway through the plan, and we have built 2 arcologies, increased consumer goods production from a massive deficit to parity demand, and massively increased QOL in approx. ~2 years. Things are getting better for everyone, we are not neglecting the people by any metric whatsoever.
My point is to plan ahead. Six quarters from now, the housing quality issue won't be solved, as a strictly practical matter. There will be a large number of voters asking for better housing. That is the point in time at which we make the next round of Plan guarantees. Therefore, there will be a lot of legislators who, regardless of what has been done in the past, will be pressuring us to make further guarantees about housing quality in the future.

Building duplexes or housing grants will be, in some ways, the easier or cheaper way to fulfill these guarantees. I'm not saying we can't build arcologies to fulfill the guarantees, and arguably we should... But the price tag is going to be painful.

That explosion could activate the liquid tiberium and we could run out of stuff to research and not have enough to make the bootleg?
The point is that if Kane is keeping the Tacitus in Threshold-19 (and failing to do so would be ill-advised), it literally doesn't matter how much firepower we throw at it. Threshold-19 is, by all appearances, more durable than the planet it's sitting on; we could bomb ourselves into global extinction trying to crack it and we'd fail.

I figured we have a better chance of rolling the one scirn tech we need to gain access to the tower than managing to roll for all five techs remaining that we need to create our own TCN
Assuming there is such a Scrin tech, then yes, yes we would. On the other hand, that's still basically us betting on the outcome of a gacha where there are about 94 possible prizes and we probably only get like 8-10 more rolls.

So I am even less hopeful that we somehow get it now like that looks like we are very lucky we even got what we have already.
Since when we started we would reasonably expect to get about, oh... 13 or so Scrin techs on average, it was reasonably likely we'd get at least one of the seven, and getting two of the seven wasn't that surprising. However, getting two of the seven in the initial lineup was good luck indeed.

Could the military try to find caches as well because it sounds like it could be a one stone two birds situation?
Yes. But that's basically the "scorpion pinata" option, because if we want to beat Nod like a pinata, the military is the stick.

(I'm guessing Kane is the blindfold)

And my opinion on that is finishing the current phase of Chicago is just as important as the first and any remaining phases of Mecca. Mecca may be an important city to at least start on in order to preempt any Nod plans from using it first, but it's not an urgent one to finish ASAP either. It's not as if the PS it provides are sorely needed any time soon anyways, while the Abatement from Chicago are worth getting more assurance to finish at this turn from higher completion rates.
An 11% chance of getting four more abatement points one turn sooner (and most likely having a big wasteful surge of overcompletion) is not necessarily better than a 5% greater chance of getting Phase 1 of Mecca done. Because the strategic rewards of Phase 1 Mecca include some time-critical aspects that having 0.04 more net mitigation throughout the history of the quest may not compensate for.
 
There are way worse characters to fall in love with tbh
I dunno. Kane has a body count higher than Stalin, Hitler and Polpot combined. In terms of percentage points, of all people killed out of a total population, his is more than twice the Khmer Rouge in terms of "genocidal monster".

@Ithillid
Didn't Legion get told by Kane that GDI experimentation with the Tacitus would destabilize it enough to cause its destruction in the near future if GDI continued?

Tacitus

The Tacitus was a data storage device of unknown age and alien origin,[1] brought to Earth by an alien species known as the Scrin.[2] The Tacitus contained a massive amount of information, including information about advanced technology, making it highly sought after by both the Global Defense...
The Key to Ascension

" They are like children playing with a nuclear weapon! They have no idea what they have, no idea of its power! Their experiments have rendered the Tacitus dangerously unstable, do you see how the signal is fluctuating?! If we are to secure the artifact, we must move quickly, before we lose it forever! - Kane to LEGION "

After LEGION's failed attempt to intercept the Tacitus, it was back under GDI control and was transferred back to the Rocky Mountains Complex. The device's condition was deteriorating and the probability of destroying it increased with every test.[22] Kane was disturbed by the development, and feared GDI may have damaged it beyond repair, but chose to wait until LEGION reactivated in 2052.[23] Nod was much reduced as a result of the Third Tiberium War. The forces needed to assault the Tacitus facility was found in the Marked of Kane.[24] LEGION recovered the Tacitus and interfaced with it.[23]
Because that would mean GDI lost the war with Kane the moment Tratos, the original mutant translator of the Tacitus, got killed by CABAL.
Which means nearly every timeline where the Tacitus didn't get taken back by Kane that timeline Earth got eventually overrun by Tiberium because GDI in its carelessness destroyed its ticket for the TCN.
 
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It's like, at this point, either he's not human, or he's human but he's a wizard who sold his soul to the Devil or something. The difference hardly matters, but since GDI does not, as a matter of policy, believe in actual magic, "he's an alien" seems the more likely hypothesis.

There is one other explanation: tiberuim. If you said the stuff could make people Kane levels of hard to kill the official scientific response would be: "it could be possible."
 
Pretty much. Recruit Noddies, or Scorpion Pinatas are the two good ways of getting back/restoring your bonus.
That's going to be pretty difficult. The only way we got access to the Qatar loyalists was due to a tremendous amount of circumstances.
- Qatar already laying the framework for cooperation with GDI with the ceasefire during the Scrin invasion
- Kovacs tricking Kane into thinking Qatar was a traitor
- Kane being shown to Qatar loyalists as fallible
Without those events it probably would have been impossible to bring in such a large NOD faction that was actually willing to work with GDI against NOD.

Only other options I could see is some faction somewhere losing a power struggle and defecting to GDI in order to survive or doing so well militarilly that a faction surrenders instead of fights to the last man.
 
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