Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

yrsillar said:

It was a funny thing to consider. What did that make family even mean really? Ling Qi felt a faint tingling in her chest, not a pain, but a feeling of pressure. Her thoughts were circling the issue that had plagued her for months now. What did she want from her family? What did she owe it? How was she to carry it with her?

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So a bit aside from the chapter itself, I've been having thoughts on some of the metaphysics of cultivation for a while now, specifically in regards to the various realms of cultivation, and this bit here kinda crystalized some of said thoughts.

So specifically, here we see what looks like Ling Qi's Way doing something, and we've seen similar things happen when Heart Demons come up, little twinges in the chest area, except this is a bit odd as a green realms cultivation is confined to the lower dantian around the navel, whereas the middle dantian in the chest is related to Shen. So I wonder if Ling Qi's Way is slowly forming or opening her middle dantian through Green, already interacting with it before the Cyan breakthrough. Maybe we even have a bit of Shen sitting there, the still forming Way not quite active yet. Some of the impressions of Shen I've gotten in the Forgeverse is that it carries or is meaning, and considering how domains/Ways work this would kinda make sense.

Following from this thought, I've kinda had a theory I've been knocking around in my head on what 'Realms' in cultivation actually are, and although there's not really much evidence for it if the above thoughts on Shen are true I think it makes sense. It's more just a theory matching up with facts than having real evidence behind it.

So the basic idea is that Realms are based on specific interactions with specific forms of matter, that is there's the three forms of matter Qi, Shen and Nothingness (or whatever it's called in Forge), and three fundamental and simple ways for entities to interact with these essences, we'll call these 'Possessing', that is possessing some of that energy but not being able to deliberately/actively use it (though subconscious uses are possible e.g. domains, prayer), 'Usage', being able to deliberately and actively use it, and a third more advanced form. Just as a very random guess let's call it 'Integration', which means you are directly fusing this stuff into your very being/soul to enhance yourself, though this interaction could well be anything. Breaking through to a new realm is simply obtaining a more advanced form of essence or interaction.

Finally, having a more advanced interaction also enhances lower interactions and essences (e.g. going from simply owning Shen to actively using it could enhance the potency and amount of ones Qi, which makes some sense).

By this model:
Mortal = Possession of Qi. Mortals have souls and bodies which are made of Qi. They might be able to use Qi unconsciously (prayer and creating/opening lower dantian might be examples of this).
Red = Usage of Qi. A Red is a Mortal who has formed/opened a dantian/dantian-equivalent and is able to directly control their Qi. This is also why Red lifespans are just Mortal with good health, as lifespan in forge is dependant on the soul which hasn't really been changed here.
Yellow = Integration of Qi. They are enhancing their soul with their cultivated Qi, improving their lifespan but also by enahncing themselves they enhance their dantian so can hold more Qi, a self reinforcing cycle, until...
Green = Possession of Shen. By forming a tiny bit of Shen they get a Domain/Way, though they can't actively use said Shen yet (though it might be able to act slightly/unconciously through their Qi in domain effects). Building up their Way they improve this bit of Shen until...
Cyan = Usage of Shen. They've fully built/opened their Middle Dantian and can now freely use their Shen.

Beyond this point we know very little about the realms but by this model:

Indigo = Integration of Shen. We know Cyan includes converting bodily processes to 'Pearls', this being in preparation for converting ones Soul/Body into Shen at Indigo also makes sense to me.
Violet = Possession of Nothingness. This is the first Sovereignty stage where Nothingness comes into play. Not being able to 'actively' use it is a bit of a flaw in this theory but with how little we know about Sovereignty anyway 'unconscious' uses could be enough to qualify. Throws hands in air Gib Lore.
Prism = Usage of Nothingness.
White = Integration of Nothingness.

This also gives a couple of possibilities for why you get yeeted out of the universe at Great Spirit. Option 1, upon complete Intergration of Nothingness you by definition may have completely converted yourself body and soul to Nothingness, which may not be able to exist on its own in the material world. Option 2, continuing this pattern we gain access to a fourth essence type beyond Qi, Shen and Nothingness. Based on Dragon Mama's comment about the dragons 'Divinity being locked behind the Father's Hearth' the fourth essence could be literal Divinity. Neither of these quite explain how Sublime Ancestors work either.

What this model does explain is why all the Realms but not Stages are shared across spirits, beasts and various human cultures across the planet, even as some rules of reality change according to geography. All it requires is Qi, Shen and Nothingness to be fundamental building blocks of the setting, and also for these 'interactions' that entities can have with these essences to also be fundamental, then by default everything in the setting must fall into one of the eight known realms plus mortality.

So, there's the effortpost on my theorycrafting.

Anderein said:

Regardless of whether or not we bring anyone in, people are still going to say that this affects their interest in way X and therefore they want change Y because at some level this affects everyone. If nothing else, it changes the definition of "barbarian," which is a big cultural shift, and people are going to have opinions about that. Not bringing anyone in doesn't mean that we can avoid catering to people, it means that we can't be sure we'll have anyone to point to so that we can say, "Hey, we're not opposed to reasonable concessions." And if we initiate reaching out, then we get more control over when and how that happens, and we can be much more sure that will happen before the first time we have to say no.

I'm in favor.

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So... you're basically saying "I like option A. Also, the reason that we've been given by the QM, clearly stated in the update, for why we might want to choose option B is obviously unimportant, perhaps to the point of meaninglessness. Indeed, it's actually a stealth reason to choose option A! We should choose option A."

So... your position is that Ling Qi is violently incorrect in her own assessments? That's a pretty searingly bold claim to make.

More generally, if more people are involved, then more people have their hands in things, which means that they can object to the nitty-gritty details of getting stuff done. They'll be there for their own advantage, for the most part, rather than anything about our success. Do we trust the Wang enough to think that their goals will align with ours to that degree?

This isn't the question of whether or not to tell him. This is the question of whether or not to ask for favors. When you ask for favors in support of something like this, you give the other person influence over things, to a degree that we might not want.

I think bringing the Wang in at the very least would help with their feeling of isolation. Plus I want to see what a lady Wang is like.

Sirrocco said:

So... you're basically saying "I like option A. Also, the reason that we've been given by the QM, clearly stated in the update, for why we might want to choose option B is obviously unimportant, perhaps to the point of meaninglessness. Indeed, it's actually a stealth reason to choose option A! We should choose option A."

So... your position is that Ling Qi is violently incorrect in her own assessments? That's a pretty searingly bold claim to make.

More generally, if more people are involved, then more people have their hands in things, which means that they can object to the nitty-gritty details of getting stuff done. They'll be there for their own advantage, for the most part, rather than anything about our success. Do we trust the Wang enough to think that their goals will align with ours to that degree?

This isn't the question of whether or not to tell him. This is the question of whether or not to ask for favors. When you ask for favors in support of something like this, you give the other person influence over things, to a degree that we might not want.

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I think that anything in Voting Bold can generally be trusted (except insofar as it says it can't be trusted), and that anything Ling Qi says is subject to her level of knowledge and experience. The Voting Bold is notably agnostic on the bit of speculation I quoted, and I think her level of knowledge and experience leads to a pretty predictable mistake, the kind I'd expect people in her situation to make.

It's like hermit cultivation. Would it be great if that was an option? Yeah, there's cases where it'd be useful. But it's not possible, so you adapt around that fact and deal. Other people are going to be making demands no matter what you do, and if they're affected but not brought in as a part of it then they'll invoke other ties you already have (to argue that you already owe them favors) or else they'll become an opponent. The question is where you pay costs, not whether costs have to be paid.

Lets talk about the economical side of things for a moment. In terms of potential scale trading with the white sky is basically only limited by logistics and infrastructure right now (both sides have access to insanely large amount of resources deemed rare by the other party). Which means that including the count clans will likely increase our net income instead of decreasing it.
Our overall share might be smaller, but we'll be able to support much more trade in total. (Help with infrastructure, administration, general manpower, and a larger amount of people actively trading from the very beginning).

The financial scale of this trade route is probably always gonna be big, but including the Wang might jump start it to a larger fraction of its eventual size.

I think we're leaning too much towards being isolated from the broader Emerald Sea nobility as it is. If we can get some more count clans on our side, I'm for it, unless there's something bad about the Wang Clan that I'm forgetting. Remaining isolated from the rest of our duchy's nobility was never a sustainable long term solution, so we might as well get on with it. The upsides outweigh the downsides here. This option is less about getting the Wang Clan in particular than in setting the stance moving forward of gaining count clan involvement.

Sirrocco said:

More generally, if more people are involved, then more people have their hands in things, which means that they can object to the nitty-gritty details of getting stuff done. They'll be there for their own advantage, for the most part, rather than anything about our success. Do we trust the Wang enough to think that their goals will align with ours to that degree?

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Uh, that is why we'd do it?
Because we don't trust that their goals align with us unless we make it to their advantage that this succeeds.

The Wang are the southern border count - they'd be involved regardless.

Explaining the Situation to Wang Chao, at minimum, shows to him a commitment to include him in projects. This bodes well for him (and the Wang), considering he is a talent in the family. Not our level of talent, but very few people are.


So. What's the worst (reasonable) case here?
This is a project personally overseen by Shenhua's Heir, with the Duchess' blessing and scrutiny upon it.

it's a uh, microcosm of the Ducal role right? You want every Count to not only know what you're doing, but have some sort of buy-in for the process so that they range from "acceptance" to "enthusiastic investment" in [Ducal projects]

As the great American President Abraham Lincoln once approximately said-
"Better your detractors are inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in"

the nuance to the statement is "so long as the detractors are willing to make good faith attempts at working with you, or communicating their concerns accurately with you"

[] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

Because if nothing else this would help with the Wang Clan feeling isolated due to it liable to be part of a larger attempt to bring the other Count clans into the expedition, which might lean toward them trying to get retainers attached to the Cai heir who is starting to make waves.

Also by having Wang Chao be the person who asks his clan Ling Qi is doing him a favor, and this is something he will hopefully be able to cash out as resources to support his little gathering for growing stronger, which is an investment that should benefit the Wang/AS long-term. Oh, and Ling Qi should totally pull an Elder Zhou by holding a little party while saying she hopes to see them on the border.

For a more long-term perspective building connections with the Count clans should help for when Biyu almost certainly attends the Argent Peak Sect as they should have the numbers to cough up a sufficient quality scion for networking, and efficiency purposes.

Moratorium up

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

Another thing to note is that this is giving Wang Chao face.

he's the one putting Ling Qi in contact with his family, which means he has her trust and support. That'll definitelyhelp him with his family.

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

[X] Let things lie for now, you'll tell him later but not ask for any favors. [No Wang Clan negotiations next turn. Lean toward limiting count clan involvement.]

Keep control; don't let the Wang Clan start sticking their spoon into the initial negotiations.

[X] Let things lie for now, you'll tell him later but not ask for any favors. [No Wang Clan negotiations next turn. Lean toward limiting count clan involvement.]

LimitlessMemes said:

I think we're leaning too much towards being isolated from the broader Emerald Sea nobility as it is. If we can get some more count clans on our side, I'm for it, unless there's something bad about the Wang Clan that I'm forgetting. Remaining isolated from the rest of our duchy's nobility was never a sustainable long term solution, so we might as well get on with it. The upsides outweigh the downsides here. This option is less about getting the Wang Clan in particular than in setting the stance moving forward of gaining count clan involvement.

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Yeah. I just want to make sure we take a multilateral approach so we can counter the inherent isolation of the White Sky path from Imperial powers vs the sect path. Gotta build CRX's standing and alliances.

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

yrsillar said:

But you should understand that just being tied to Lady Cai makes us stable either. I

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tied to Lady Cai doesn't make us stable either

I am leaning towards accepting count clan support. It's a good carrot, and showing a glimpse of the politics of the Empire to the southerners is a good way to aclimitize them with how our politics run.

Also this should bring much short term benefit to Ling Qi.

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

The fact that we've chosen a diplomatic focus means that the geographic focus of the story is going to shift towards the Wall. It won't be enough for us to have contacts with White Sky, we're also going to need contacts with the count clans on the Imperial side of the border in order to keep the peace between factions and open lines of communication.

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)

Connections for the political throne! Also the Meng are kinda already involved in the diplomacy efforts, getting other count clans on-board will prevent appearances of favoritism.

[X] Explain the situation to Wang Chao, and see if he can put you in contact with any helpful relatives. (Opens Wang clan negotiations for next turn. Lean toward expanding count clan involvement.)