Remove ads

Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
Thor's Twin said:
I would much rather replace Academics with Music. Projection, I feel, is far too crucial for the wisps that are a key feature I wish to keep around.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We use music for our classic construct arts.

Replacing projection with music was literally the ur-example of art modification that created the idea in the first place.

Like, using music for projection should literally make any construct stuff we do an order of magnitude better (at least if those skills affected RME at all).
 
Last edited:
For those skimming, RME's current keywords:
yrsillar said:
Keywords:
- Clairvoyance, Moon, Secrets, Water, Yin.
- Academics, Perceptiveness, Intelligence, Projection, Formations.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Erebeal said:
Replacing projection with music was literally the ur-example of art modification that created the idea in the first place.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't suppose you've got a link? It'd be useful for people who missed or forgot the specifics to be able to go back and read.
 
[X] Replace Projection with Music

I am a summoner of the math cabal. It would break our non-vocal agreement to not follow their plan now. :V
 
CrimsonOddball said:
Firstly yes
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...

Good points and thanks for the clarification about the Fisher story. I'm not sure what the implications for various power is for Grandmother Serpent or Yao are at the time they met. It could be that he was "merely" violet or prism (there's certainly no reason that the Face Eater had to be any higher) although he would have to be at least this realm given the time line for his meeting, learning, wandering and then returning to Grandmother Serpent was over a century and he was described as not significantly changing (we do see some evidence that cultivators visibly age as they grow older relative to their realm) and it seems unlikely he would be able to go on and start a family and build an kingdom if he was close to death.

The Twilight King was given to be absolutely ridiculous in terms of cultivation, as in it was his only defining character trait (an amazing cultivator but not suited to lead) ---> hissy fit ---> war. The theory that he was distributing his soul/power across his army is certainly interesting and would explain how he was able to kill a Sublime Ancestor (as ascended are explicit more powerful than Whites).

While we are talking about projecting major power I had a thought. The most recent side story names all sorts of nasty weapons of war, Heavenforge Titans, Eight Winds Engine, Soul Crumbler, Nightmare Walkers, etc. That is at least four names with two being plurals, and a number of implied other creations each of which were relevant in a war between Whites, which puts the scale of each of these as at least Prism, maybe less for the plurals if there were multiple working together. My question is how did Shang power all that? Managing the upkeep of her creations is a major point and limitation for Li Suyin and I don't see why that would change as the creations scale. We know that the crafter can personally fuel their creations, but there's no way he was personally fueling near the entire war effort on his own, especially giving he did much of this work as a revenant.
 
Candesce said:
For those skimming, RME's current keywords:


I don't suppose you've got a link? It'd be useful for people who missed or forgot the specifics to be able to go back and read.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm talking about AE back in Forge. My idea for making it useful was making the case to yrs that it would be reasonable for us to learn how to use music to cast the art rather than projection, as it would be similar to FVM.
 
[] Replace Projection with Music and Replace Academics with History

I feel like we can do more than making it music. Music is great since we are a musician but Postcognition is extremely useful. Being able to figure out what something was used for in the past is incredibly useful. Its more keywords, but I feel like we can do it.
 
Erebeal said:
We use music for our classic construct arts.

Replacing projection with music was literally the ur-example of art modification that created the idea in the first place.

Like, using music for projection should literally make any construct stuff we do an order of magnitude better (at least if those skills affected RME at all).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I understand that it was the ur-example of art modification that spawned this plan to modify RME. That does not make it inherently a good idea or that better ideas do not exist. It simply means that it was the original idea, and being an original idea is not sufficient for me to vote for it.

And we do not use music for our classic construct arts. We use music for some of our classic construct arts, specifically FVM and BKSD. RME and PLR do not use music as a skill in their construct construction, and so I do not see a reason why music would inherently make RME's projection construction better. This is especially the case when the classic examples of music projections are fairly limited in distance from us while RME's projections, even at Green 2, are not so limited.

Projection seems to be a keyword that seems fairly tied up to the projections that RME makes, the wisps that are my favorite aspects. Meddling with that keyword does not strike me as wise if we want to keep the wisps largely the same.

The "Academic" keyword, on the other hand, seems to be connected to the academic bonus the art provides and, so far, very little else. It seems to be a much safer keyword to modify and bring the wanted capabilities to RME that most of us seem to be seeking.
 
[] Replace Clairvoyance with Music

My idea is to make the RME into something that can let us have our music fields originate from our wisps and so "Projection" would be us throwing our voice. The scry would then be us listening for far away Music instead of visually observing something.

Otherwise the wisps are sort of awkward for a Music art. What would they even be doing? Music isn't even about sound so even giving them the ability to hear things is a stretch
 
Last edited:
JohnnieBoy123 said:
[] Replace Clairvoyance with Music

My idea is to make the RME into something that can let us have our music fields originate from our wisps and so "Projection" would be us throwing our voice. The scry would then be us listening for far away Music instead of visually observing something.

Otherwise the wisps are sort of awkward for a Music art. What would they even be doing? Music isn't even about sound so even giving them the ability to hear things is a stretch
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That just seems like a good way to delete scrying, since that's the scrying keyword. Also the remote vision keyword, and thus odds are it breaks the wisps as well.

Thor's Twin said:
This is especially the case when the classic examples of music projections are fairly limited in distance from us while RME's projections, even at Green 2, are not so limited.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
FVM used to have obscene range - the only reason everything's shorter now was balance concerns with our massive AoEs.

Honestly though, all this speculative arguing is mostly just highlighting limitations in the system. The ultimate goals are adjusting the art and techniques in a particular way - to make it music based.

Guessing at which keyword replacement is optimal to achieve that outcome is sort of just doing things backwards, as really keywords should be the result of the Art design. At this point all we can really do is ask @yrsillar. If we want to mod the art to something like that below, would projection -> music be the appropriate path then? Or would you go with something else?

Inquisitive Study: D
Duration: Persistent or Upkeep 2
The user channels qi into their eyes and/or ears, allowing them to hear pieces of the Music of the world. The user's perception increases greatly for up to two tests in a single scene, allowing them to discern many details that they might otherwise miss.

Seeking Moon's Eyes: C
Duration: Persistent
Song is woven into eight reflective silver wisps the size of a coin. Expressions of the Diviner's curiosity, these wisps seek their parents' interest eagerly. The wisps ignore wholly physical obstacles but cannot travel further than Very Far distance from their creator. The creator may see, hear, and sing from the wisp's position as if they stood there themselves. This greatly increases their combat perception and allows them to use a wisp as the origin for Musical performances instead of themselves, though Techniques lose two ranks of range.

Statblock
XX

Initiate's Viewing Pool: B
[Non-Combat]
Requiring a surface of calm water or a mirror at least two handspans wide, the user sings/listens for the song of? a familiar person or place within fifteen kilometers of their current position. The user is able to view the person or location in clear detail with both sight and hearing with perception equivalent to their own base Perception. This viewing may be opposed by arts or talismans of various types, in which case the user's combat perception is used to determine success. With sufficient surfaces, the use may view up to three targets with a single use of this technique. The user may attempt to look upon an unfamiliar location or person(such as one merely described or seen in passing to the user), however the user receives two ranks down on their Perception when doing this, and only receives musical information even on success. Targets are not considered familiar until seen in person.

Alternatively the user may sing into being a surface of their own to use on the fly, but using the technique this way causes all perception checks to be made at one rank down.
 
TedBear said:
While we are talking about projecting major power I had a thought. The most recent side story names all sorts of nasty weapons of war, Heavenforge Titans, Eight Winds Engine, Soul Crumbler, Nightmare Walkers, etc. That is at least four names with two being plurals, and a number of implied other creations each of which were relevant in a war between Whites, which puts the scale of each of these as at least Prism, maybe less for the plurals if there were multiple working together. My question is how did Shang power all that? Managing the upkeep of her creations is a major point and limitation for Li Suyin and I don't see why that would change as the creations scale. We know that the crafter can personally fuel their creations, but there's no way he was personally fueling near the entire war effort on his own, especially giving he did much of this work as a revenant.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Geomancy, baby!

No, seriously. Shang Tsung was the foremost master of geomancy in the entire history of the Empire, even to this day, to the point where any practice of the art was associated with him. After the end of the Strife, its usage became reviled by mere association with the Usurper (hence the book burnings and sealing of knowledge), and the practice fell into a long period of decline and disuse in the Second Dynasty, denying the Empire its many, many benefits. It's only with the advent of the Third Dynasty and the Mu where the art has been revived and is recovering, with enough separation from the Strife that the former associations are no longer there.
 
Erebeal said:
FVM used to have obscene range - the only reason everything's shorter now was balance concerns with our massive AoEs.

Honestly though, all this speculative arguing is mostly just highlighting limitations in the system. The ultimate goals are adjusting the art and techniques in a particular way - to make it music based.

Guessing at which keyword replacement is optimal to achieve that outcome is sort of just doing things backwards, as really keywords should be the result of the Art design. At this point all we can really do is ask @yrsillar. If we want to mod the art to something like that below, would projection -> music be the appropriate path then? Or would you go with something else?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I agree, and, quite frankly, I would rather try to modify the art after we have leveled it up and seeing what it can do rather than guessing with only 2/5th's of the art's progress done.
 
I'm just confused what replacing projection with music does at all. Water seems more like the odd keyword out here, since Ling Qi doesn't really use any water focused arts. I'm skeptical of removing the Academics keyword, since that would seem to indicate an informational facet to the art we'd want to keep.
 
Last edited:
LimitlessMemes said:
I'm just confused what replacing projection with music does at all. Water seems more like the odd keyword out here, since Ling Qi doesn't really use any water focused arts.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ling Qi does use water-focused arts, but is more in a fusion with darkness. The "Cold" keyword is considered both water and darkness for bonuses and cultivation, as well as counting as cold of course.
 
Thor's Twin said:
I agree, and, quite frankly, I would rather try to modify the art after we have leveled it up and seeing what it can do rather than guessing with only 2/5th's of the art's progress done.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think this is fine, since we know what the broad goal is (shift RME over to using music stuff to better fit LQ), and setting that out ahead of time allows yrs to better weave the story of its cultivation and LQ's thoughts on it.

The problems are more with the limitations of the crude - and occasionally arbitrary - keyword system.

LimitlessMemes said:
I'm just confused what replacing projection with music does at all. Water seems more like the odd keyword out here, since Ling Qi doesn't really use any water focused arts.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Projection is a skill keyword - it's basically the generic "qi projection that isn't already using another mastery" mastery. RME has it because of wisps and mirror conjury. FVM, BKSD, and PLR don't have it because they're using music and dance to produce their constructs. Xiulan uses it heavily for her fire, and Abyssal Exhalation also used it - but, well, if she was using a sword to shoot fire at people then she'd use sword mastery instead.

My general feeling is that, yeah, we could probably also replace the water *element* with the music *element* - but I'd expect that to also eliminate projection as the skill keyword, and it would be making it a music art anyway. Up to yrs really though.
 
TedBear said:
...

Good points and thanks for the clarification about the Fisher story. I'm not sure what the implications for various power is for Grandmother Serpent or Yao are at the time they met. It could be that he was "merely" violet or prism (there's certainly no reason that the Face Eater had to be any higher) although he would have to be at least this realm given the time line for his meeting, learning, wandering and then returning to Grandmother Serpent was over a century and he was described as not significantly changing (we do see some evidence that cultivators visibly age as they grow older relative to their realm) and it seems unlikely he would be able to go on and start a family and build an kingdom if he was close to death.

The Twilight King was given to be absolutely ridiculous in terms of cultivation, as in it was his only defining character trait (an amazing cultivator but not suited to lead) ---> hissy fit ---> war. The theory that he was distributing his soul/power across his army is certainly interesting and would explain how he was able to kill a Sublime Ancestor (as ascended are explicit more powerful than Whites).

While we are talking about projecting major power I had a thought. The most recent side story names all sorts of nasty weapons of war, Heavenforge Titans, Eight Winds Engine, Soul Crumbler, Nightmare Walkers, etc. That is at least four names with two being plurals, and a number of implied other creations each of which were relevant in a war between Whites, which puts the scale of each of these as at least Prism, maybe less for the plurals if there were multiple working together. My question is how did Shang power all that? Managing the upkeep of her creations is a major point and limitation for Li Suyin and I don't see why that would change as the creations scale. We know that the crafter can personally fuel their creations, but there's no way he was personally fueling near the entire war effort on his own, especially giving he did much of this work as a revenant.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

From the description of the grave of the sun we got, I think that it's the nameless mother that killed the Sublime Ancestor.
The phoenix used to much power fighting the twilight king while in the mortal realm, so it was killed in return.
This still suggests that the twilight king was very powerful since a Sublime Ancestor could not kill him using safe amounts of power.
 
Just because something is a few points stronger on paper, doesn't make it a better fit. The technique looked great as it was and crowbaring Music in there seems like tasteless munchkinism.

[X] Replace Academics with Explosive
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top