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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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[X] Plan Trials of Santa's Helpers
-[X] Trial of Delivery
--[X] The Beardlings will have to deliver your Toys to other Holds

Let's get some use out of those beardlings
 
fission as in splitting things, not nuclear fission I assume.
Otherwise it'd be pretty obvious because the repairs would be made out of a different material to the rest of the item as Iron splits into two Aluminium isotopes to maintain the proton count.
@Acolyte posted the idea about the rune using fission to create new material, i don't think they would have used that term if they meant anything other than nuclear fission. Would be an odd choice of words to use. I don't think it would work that way, it's too much of a leap to be that simple.
 
@Acolyte posted the idea about the rune using fission to create new material, i don't think they would have used that term if they meant anything other than nuclear fission. Would be an odd choice of words to use. I don't think it would work that way, it's too much of a leap to be that simple.
I know why fission came into the conversation, but fission is also a term in biology Fission (biology) - Wikipedia
Its actually just a word that can be used to describe splitting one thing into two. Definition of FISSION Which is where the term entered nuclear physics and biology in the first place.
So honestly. Its not common parlance but its still a perfectly reasonable choice of word.
 
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I know why fission came into the conversation, but fission is also a term in biology Fission (biology) - Wikipedia
Its actually just a word that can be used to describe splitting one thing into two. Definition of FISSION Which is where the term entered nuclear physics and biology in the first place.
So honestly. Its not common parlance but its still a perfectly reasonable choice of word.
I didn't think of that kind of fission, tbh. I think of that as Cellular division. It's perhaps less out there than nuclear fission, and it at least fits better with what we know.
I still think that my idea about it being something relatively simple intended to make Snorri think hard about things fits better: something tailored to our strengths to nurture it further.
But if it turns out Valaya gave us the holy grail of inducing Biological properties to Inorganic matter and potentially a key to Post scarcity, well, it also fits in the "Gift from the Ancestors" scale.
 
I didn't think of that kind of fission, tbh. I think of that as Cellular division. It's perhaps less out there than nuclear fission, and it at least fits better with what we know.
I still think that my idea about it being something relatively simple intended to make Snorri think hard about things fits better: something tailored to our strengths to nurture it further.
But if it turns out Valaya gave us the holy grail of inducing Biological properties to Inorganic matter and potentially a key to Post scarcity, well, it also fits in the "Gift from the Ancestors" scale.
Yeah but your post is incomprehensible.

You get way too hung up on the cleaving aspects and somehow seem to forget that the influence of the Rune of Healing was the dominatant influence to the point that Snorri was able to recognise it however Cleaving is extremely disconnected.
There were indeed, as you initially saw, parallels to the Rune of Healing, but there also were ties to a wholly different and unintuitive group of Runes. Structures you could, at best, link to the Rune of Cleaving, but in a very roundabout and obtuse sense. From what you could gather these similarities encompassed division of all things, which confused you greatly.
This isn't a case where Cleaving has been reorganised to make a different Rune, this is two different runes both seem to share a root in a third rune that Snorri doesn't know.

Basically theres an implied Rune of Division somewhere and it can be branched off to reach either Repair or Cleaving by heading in different directions. Leaving the Rune of repair as a cousin many times removed of Cleaving.

Theres a lot to research here before we know anything for sure but I don't understand how you think Runes work.
We know what happens when you move the order of doing things in making a rune
A different line, a deeper cut or even an alternate way of writing the same Rune can vastly change its metaphysical meaning and therefore its corporeal effect on reality. This is why runesmiths have chants, rites and other rituals when inscribing Runes, they were first and foremost a way to remember the correct way of "pronouncing" the written Rune, and to a minor extent impart the metaphysical meaning into the mind of the runesmith.
As a rule you generally get an inferior version of the rune thats tied more heavily to a specific type of the concept. This loses power by being tied to a specific concept reduces its metaphysical weight and it also loses connections to more useful sub versions of the concept like going from Fire to Green Fire could lose connotations of Dragon Fire.

Not only has nothing Valaya done demonstrate the thought process that you say she's trying to teach us, your conclusion is massively at odds with the WoG statement about how runes work.
E: At least thats how I interpreted your statement, as I said at the top, I'm not sure I followed your chain of thought.
E:E: Also the Rune of Annealing and the Chain stuff came literal centuries after Valaya gave us the basket so it feels like a very tenuous link. Really don't get what you're driving at there.
 
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Er quick question, but how is nuclear fission even supposed to produce material? All it does is convert one element into another (+- a fuckton of energy), so you would need some very high up elements if you want to produce something like gold via fission. Wich I don't think she put in, as Snorri said that the rune didn't meed extra materials.

It can't be providing energy either, because again, we would need extra materials.
 
Er quick question, but how is nuclear fission even supposed to produce material? All it does is convert one element into another (+- a fuckton of energy), so you would need some very high up elements if you want to produce something like gold via fission. Wich I don't think she put in, as Snorri said that the rune didn't meed extra materials.

It can't be providing energy either, because again, we would need extra materials.
Which is one of the reasons that I don't think anyone thinks it is nuclear fission.
 
[X] Plan Theme of Preparation
-[X] Theme for Both Runes: Two trials that are meant to teach the importance of repetitive, backbreaking and tedious labor in making a better world and how things which make that tedium easier are a blessing to be used to their utmost. Trials that emphasize the importance of details and the necessities of the day to day and how these runes improve that.

The way to fully utilize the rune is to learn exactly how many ways the rune saves work the hard way - do them without the rune, then make the rune and you will appreciate every bit of it.

Now curiosities:
-Repair + Awakening seems like a wonder combo for mechanisms? Gears that will never wear out, always turn themselves.
-I wonder what happens you use Weapon version of Stacking with Master Rune of Conversion to 'compress' the output of Conversion...
 
Er quick question, but how is nuclear fission even supposed to produce material? All it does is convert one element into another (+- a fuckton of energy), so you would need some very high up elements if you want to produce something like gold via fission. Wich I don't think she put in, as Snorri said that the rune didn't meed extra materials.

It can't be providing energy either, because again, we would need extra materials.
I just jumped to nuclear fission because that was the connection I made when i read "fission". And i said in my post that it was very unlikely that it was that.

We know what happens when you move the order of doing things in making a rune

As a rule you generally get an inferior version of the rune thats tied more heavily to a specific type of the concept. This loses power by being tied to a specific concept reduces its metaphysical weight and it also loses connections to more useful sub versions of the concept like going from Fire to Green Fire could lose connotations of Dragon Fire.

Not only has nothing Valaya done demonstrate the thought process that you say she's trying to teach us, your conclusion is massively at odds with the WoG statement about how runes work.
E: At least thats how I interpreted your statement, as I said at the top, I'm not sure I followed your chain of thought.
E:E: Also the Rune of Annealing and the Chain stuff came literal centuries after Valaya gave us the basket so it feels like a very tenuous link. Really don't get what you're driving at there.
I'm just extrapolating from Snorri's experiments.

We've seen Snorri do trial and error experiments with both the Master Rune of Purification and using subtle variations to improve the Prosthetics.
We've seen the result of a failed experiment with the Master Rune of Forgeflame which Snorri derived from the Master Rune of Conduction, presumably by making small modifications to the inscription process. Small, subtle alterations that hopefully lead in the right direction.
Powering Barak Azamar with a Troll heart instead of the Stonehorn's horn is another example of Snorri straying from the established pronunciation of a rune. A troll heart is not an obvious direct upgrade the Stonehorn's horns (Eg using Adamant instead of Gromril, or Dragon brain instead of Griffon Brain). It has a different metaphysical weight to it, and Snorri understands enough about that part to use it.

Yes, the standard chants are precise ways to reproduce a Rune consistently, and most of the time changing the chant doesn't get you anywhere. But there is some space to play. It's not always useful to do so, because most of the concepts have long since been fully optimized.

What I think Valaya did with the Rune of Cleaving was take the process used to make it and tinker with it to the point of inversion.
The rune of Cleaving was originally made for Miner's picks to break stone more easily.
Inverted, it is a pretty useless rune, and not one any conventional dwarf would get to normally. Snorri describing the elements that look to be derived from the rune of Cleaving as "roundabout and obtuse". But when combined with elements from Healing runes, the inverted components from the rune of Cleaving lets Healing work on inorganic objects.
But that's just theorycrafting on my end.
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I don't see 180 years as a grand obstacle for Valaya. If we were talking about anyone else, it might be reaching. But Valaya is a goddess, and has nurturing in her portfolio. The Ancestors have demonstrated the ability to reach through space, so I don't see it as that much of a stretch to attribute borderline prophetic foresight to Valaya when it comes to her portfolio.

I don't think it's a stretch for Valaya to know what Snorri's strengths are and give him a challenge that will improve those strengths once he unravels it.
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Anyway. this effort post has gotten long enough.
 
I wonder what the new research chain are? 'Positioning of Things' for space and 'State of Things' for repair might work.
 
I don't know if there's any practical purpose to this, but I really want Snorri to make a tankard capable of holding several barrels worth of ale and challenge unsuspecting beardlings to try and finish it in one quaff.
 
The trial of quaffing, he hands the journeyman a shot glass inscribed with the rune and they think it's a joke, an hour later ale is still coming out in an unending torrent and they have to admit defeat.
 
[X] [Trial:] QM's choice.

EDIT: I can definitely see why this runes are considered a challenge from the Ancestor. Not for the initial investment of time and effort, but the implications! God, if we can study Space/Time through these runes that would be amazing.

Quick thought about the Rune of Repair, is it possible that the material it is magically restoring is the actual base material for the object, and it isn't a Rune of Repair at all, but rather a Rune of Restore to the previous state? AKA, it isn't being repaired with new material, but the exact same material that was broken/damaged.
 
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I'm just extrapolating from Snorri's experiments.

We've seen Snorri do trial and error experiments with both the Master Rune of Purification and using subtle variations to improve the Prosthetics.
We've seen the result of a failed experiment with the Master Rune of Forgeflame which Snorri derived from the Master Rune of Conduction, presumably by making small modifications to the inscription process. Small, subtle alterations that hopefully lead in the right direction.
Powering Barak Azamar with a Troll heart instead of the Stonehorn's horn is another example of Snorri straying from the established pronunciation of a rune. A troll heart is not an obvious direct upgrade the Stonehorn's horns (Eg using Adamant instead of Gromril, or Dragon brain instead of Griffon Brain). It has a different metaphysical weight to it, and Snorri understands enough about that part to use it.

Yes, the standard chants are precise ways to reproduce a Rune consistently, and most of the time changing the chant doesn't get you anywhere. But there is some space to play. It's not always useful to do so, because most of the concepts have long since been fully optimized.

What I think Valaya did with the Rune of Cleaving was take the process used to make it and tinker with it to the point of inversion.
The rune of Cleaving was originally made for Miner's picks to break stone more easily.
Inverted, it is a pretty useless rune, and not one any conventional dwarf would get to normally. Snorri describing the elements that look to be derived from the rune of Cleaving as "roundabout and obtuse". But when combined with elements from Healing runes, the inverted components from the rune of Cleaving lets Healing work on inorganic objects.
But that's just theorycrafting on my end.
--
I don't see 180 years as a grand obstacle for Valaya. If we were talking about anyone else, it might be reaching. But Valaya is a goddess, and has nurturing in her portfolio. The Ancestors have demonstrated the ability to reach through space, so I don't see it as that much of a stretch to attribute borderline prophetic foresight to Valaya when it comes to her portfolio.

I don't think it's a stretch for Valaya to know what Snorri's strengths are and give him a challenge that will improve those strengths once he unravels it.
---
Anyway. this effort post has gotten long enough.
Okay so to confirm that I understand our respective positions here:
I think there is a theoretical Rune of Division of which Cleaving is a subset. And I think Division has been combined with Healing to create Repair.
Whereas you think there is a rune of Anti!Cleaving (Sticking things together?) which is combined with Healing to create Repair.

I think your theory raises a hell of a lot of questions. Have we ever seen the concept of an inverted rune before? I don't even know if this gets off the ground there. Are there similarities between Fire and Frost Runes? Snorris trial and error practice was how can I combine parts of these two different Runes, which feels to me, very different from creating from nothing or understanding the nature of the Rune in such a way you know how it gets its properties in order to be able to reverse them. That feels like more than we can achieve from trial and error like Snorri did and more like a theory of Runes.

I'm willing to accept that Valaya can make plans centuries ahead, I'm less certain that she could predict Snorris acomplishments and the internal workings of his mind before she even met him at the Throne of Power.
It was implied that Grungni gave the same challenge to a lot of Runelords and Master Smiths. It feels more like the same thing is happening with Valaya here rather than her predicting that Snorri specifically had the correct mindset to do a thing even before she'd even met him.
 
Ok I've thought about it more and I'm going to throw out my own trial idea:

[X] Plan Trial of the Ancestors
-[X] Theme for Both Runes: Six smaller trials, one for each ancestor cult organised with those cults. The trials should emphasise the runesmith working with the other cults for the betterment of all, the number of runes the journeyman can learn would depend on how many of the trials they complete.
 
I don't know if there's any practical purpose to this, but I really want Snorri to make a tankard capable of holding several barrels worth of ale and challenge unsuspecting beardlings to try and finish it in one quaff.
You joke, but that would probably make for a really cool gift for a Valayan priest or a brewmaster if it ever comes up.
 
Quick thought about the Rune of Repair, is it possible that the material it is magically restoring is the actual base material for the object, and it isn't a Rune of Repair at all, but rather a Rune of Restore to the previous state? AKA, it isn't being repaired with new material, but the exact same material that was broken/damaged.
Ehh, whatever the physical mechanic of it's work, we won't be able to deduce it with our current information. And even if we do, we won't be able to make much use of it aside from guessing the next benefits of the chain.

Magic just makes things all too complicated. Enough so that our wording on that matter is just lacking.
 
@soulcake, how large is the Chainforger device, and can the Rune of Stacking help Snorri make a smaller Chainforger without negativrly affecting its efficacy and whatnot?
 
My first idea when it came to repair runs was that it was simply "redistributing" its existing material instead of creating new stuff from thin air but I admit that was probably more caused by my brain pre-emptively trying to counter ways for it to be exploited or violating physics to much but I suspect that those are not necessarily restrictions that should be applied to Warhammer magic.
 
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