Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Insert Tally
Adhoc vote count started by EternalObserver on Jan 13, 2021 at 7:32 PM, finished with 185 posts and 115 votes.
 
Yeah, been thinking on this, and I'm starting to get the feeling is, in fact "The feelings of the people around me are important too and I need to keep those in mind" conflicting with Ling Qi's own well being.

Since Ling Qi attributes personal strength and ability as the method to attain safety and security in life, but other people around her have other priorities, and when the desires of others clash with what the best move for Ling Qi is, the Heart Demon gets aggravated.

What's unspoken of--but is arguably the key to the Heart Demon and its resolution however is fairly simple, and has been there since day one of Threads, and never brought up.

On some level, Ling Qi does not believe the people around her will be able to help her when the chips are down

Her entire life has been a series of upheavals where at a moment's notice, everything she has and has worked towards can be taken away from her--that people will only go so far to support her--and no further. Treasures? Wealth? Comfort? Security? All of these are sourced from her personal strength, and she lives in a world where if some demigod decides to roll in and take everything from her--she has to submit, and that to either protect her or because it's not worth their life, the people around her will submit too, and she'll be alone again.

Look at the bond page

Read Again what they actually Mean

Bond Descriptions said:
-6: Hated- The organization will bend a great deal of resources toward destroying you in any capacity in which they are able
-5: Despised- The organization will work against you at every turn and invest significant resources in doing so
-4: Greatly Disliked- The organization will oppose you whenever doing so is both possible and matches with their other goals
-3: Disliked- Members will be poorly disposed toward you and the organization may invest in making your life difficult
-2: Mildly Disliked- Members will be mildly biased against you with some individuals being more so. Mild institutional notice
-1: Negative Notice- One or more individuals within the organization have taken a disliking to you and will likely bend their resources toward damaging you.
0: Unnoticed: The organization has no significant awareness of your existence
1: Notice: One or more individuals within the organization have taken a liking toward you and may seek to aid you in minor situations
2: Mildly liked- Members will be positively biased toward you, with some individuals being moreso. Mild institutional notice
3: Liked- Members will be generally well disposed toward you and the organization may actively support you
4: Greatly Liked- The organization will support you whenever doing so is both possible and does not significantly harm their other goals
5: Revered- The organization will side with you in most situations, and will bend significant resources toward supporting you
6: Loved- The organization will almost always side with you, and will staunchly support you against most any foe, almost without regard for cost.

These are all based on Ling Qi's perception, mind you.

Now, knowing that, what does it say that even her closest relationships cap out at 4?

"If the chips are down, and the sky is falling, everyone will leave me anyway, and I have to accept that, therefore, I cannot put my full faith in that which is external to myself"

It is, if you will, an 'Unwritten Insight' that's conflicting with her Advanced Insight and causing this friction. "I have to acknowledge their feelings, because that makes no house and home I want... But respecting their freedom to choose means I have to accept they'll leave me when I am no longer valuable enough to justify the association."

And so comes the Heart Demon. "As long as Ling Qi can't accept that some people will have her back come hell or high water, that she can put her faith in others not to abandon her based on her character instead of her power, she won't ever be capable of understanding that cultivating the Family is the same as cultivating the Self, henceforth bringing the 'Always move forward, stagnation is death' insight into conflict with 'The Desires of the people in my heart must be accounted for'"

The heart demon twitch from this event was derived from "I had to dismiss Renxiang's feelings in order to continue advancing forward". It was the Correct move, and indeed, Renxiang even understood it and said there was nothing to forgive. (And based on the nat 100 miracle, it may even be Renxiang's genuine feelings!)

But Ling Qi can't forgive it, because in the moment she was willing to trample over her feelings to move forward. Even if it was for the better.
 
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And so comes the Heart Demon. "As long as Ling Qi can't accept that some people will have her back come hell or high water, that she can put her faith in others not to abandon her based on her character instead of her power, she won't ever be capable of understanding that cultivating the Family is the same as cultivating the Self, henceforth bringing the 'Always move forward, stagnation is death' insight into conflict with 'The Desires of the people in my heart must be accounted for'"

The heart demon twitch from this event was derived from "I had to dismiss Renxiang's feelings in order to continue advancing forward". It was the Correct move, and indeed, Renxiang even understood it and said there was nothing to forgive. (And based on the nat 100 miracle, it may even be Renxiang's genuine feelings!)

But Ling Qi can't forgive it, because in the moment she was willing to trample over her feelings to move forward. Even if it was for the better.
Mmm, so I'm broadly in agreement about the importance of LQ's underlying drivers like this... but I'm not sure if the logic in the final part here entirely follows?

Your explanation of LQ's focus on her personal development and power makes sense, and explains a Type 1 conflict like what caused the Heart Demon in the first place: LQ taking an action that she sees as personally incorrect and limiting for the sake of not hurting her family. The proposed solution of "understand that cultivating family is the same as cultivating personal power" kinda works to resolve *that* conflict (though I'll note again that that isn't clearly true for Ling Qi - she isn't a member of a viscount clan that will give her that power and protection regardless of whether or not she's green, cyan, or indigo. Her family's power, her position, and her value largely depends on her personal power - and her immense talent is why she has connections like Renxiang etc.).

However, this doesn't clearly work for the current Renxiang conflict - the Type 2. Saying that cultivating family is the same as cultivating personal power doesn't really address the issue here, where the conflict was that the "correct" action harmed Renxiang... Which I read as causing twinges because it's conflicting with her other drivers of wanting to be happy (which requires friend happiness) and being a good person (which she mostly reads as being a good friend). Similarly, I'll also note that "cultivating the Family is the same as cultivating the Self" seems a bit detached from the actual incidents that cause heart demon problems here? LIke, we haven't had problems with not cultivating enough or spending too much time with family and our spirits (even if LQ occasionally gets antsy.) The big heart demon issues have involved decisions around her actions in missions - whether that be solving the dream problem here, or promising to limit her strategy to stay with Zhengui and Hanyi in fights.

I feel these are good points, but I'm not sure if we've nailed everything down here yet...
 
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I still say the type 1, type 2 categorization schema is based on a reductionist oversimplification and fails to correctly relate the different ways the heart demon gets set off to each other.

I find Alectai's arguments very persuasive.
 
though I'll note again that that isn't clearly true for Ling Qi

It is explicitly true for her on a mechanical level, though the degree to which she is aware of this is unclear. Her ability to defeat the spiders as easily as she did was a result of her work with Zhengui, for instance. She would have gotten hit by the webs had that relationship not been as strong.

Paired
  • Immunity to Effects which induce Immobility or Helplessness(Bypassed by effects of Rank U or higher).
  • +1 Rank to Composure and Resolve.
  • Once per Scene, Ling Qi may negate an effect which would reduce an ally of bond 5 or 6's health to zero (Bypassed by effects which make use of Shen).

In general her domain rewards her and those around her for their bonds to each other.
 
Hmmm, I guess another thing to think about is what shape the potential solutions could be.

Because there are a couple of questions here. Firstly, the question of whether or not there is, in fact, a single solution to this problem - or whether or not the different ways that the heart demon manifest might actually need multiple insights/answers to handle.

The second is whether or not the solution must reaffirm our prior decisions. The natural approach to take is, of course, to take our choices here as given and to find a solution that holds them as correct - but that isn't necessarily required. It could also be entirely valid for LQ to go "actually in retrospect I made a mistake, and in the future I should not do that again". A solution could, perhaps, involve deciding that it's alright to prioritise one facet over the other. For example, one could propose a solution to the Renxiang conflict here that involves accepting that some short term hurt of friends can be accepted for the sake of their and our greater goals. This might also then imply that her decision to promise Zhengui and Hanyi that she'd restrict herself was unnecessary babying (not to say that the decision to try to work with them more and work more on support and things rather than going off on her own wasn't a good idea - just that saying that she'd never run off on her own if she felt it necessary was a mistake).

Is this what we want to do? Maybe, maybe not - but it is arguably a viable option and a question to ponder...
 
"No," Ling Qi muttered into the dirty street, pushing herself back up to her knees. The world flickered dizzyingly, and she felt her limbs stretch and grow. Was she a child or an Immortal? In that moment she couldn't say. "I can't go back."

Why not? Her own voice seemed to echo back.

Ling Qi struggled for a moment to answer, clenching her hands in the dirt/snow. "Because I don't want that," she hissed. "And Mom didn't want that. Even if it hurt, even if I hated it, didn't it come to a good end?"

The world shuddered violently and Ling Qi's vision went black.
So here's a very interesting point of comparison from Zeqing's trial back when we got our advanced insight.

Initially, I was going "why doesn't Ling Qi apply her FVM insight to the Renxiang situation here?". Like, this is textbook "the suffering now is worth it so we can produce something better at the end". My initial thought was that Ling Qi simply doesn't think about it that way - she only applies that insight to justify her *own* suffering. That she conceptualises her relationships from a fairly selfish angle, and primarily thinks about things in terms of "am I a good friend?" where "good friend" is particularly defined as someone who doesn't hurt their friends like a selfish dick. In that light, whether or not her friends would agree that an action hurting them was justified is besides the point, as LQ is primarily concerned with whether or not she's hurting them, because it's really about how her actions reflect on her character more than anything.

But-

As we see in that dream there, LQ has actually already applied those insights to justify hurting others - in this case her mother. This can be read as both an application of our base FVM insight (suffering is worth it if we can produce a thing of beauty at the end), as well as it being extended to others through consideration of their feelings (as in our advanced insight).

So the question this raises is: why isn't LQ applying it to Renxiang here? The situations would appear to be the same - her justification is again that both of them would agree that this is in fact the correct decision, and the suffering is justified. So why is she having trouble accepting it here? Is she just being inconsistent for no good reason?

One possibility is that LQ's feels on the matter have been challenged by her decision around the heart demon to prioritise Zhengui and Hanyi's happiness, pushing her more towards the "avoid hurting friends at all costs" end of the spectrum, which is now creating problems.

Based on this then I think that one potential answer to this problem is:
  • Renxiang situation is identical to the above. Just apply our existing FVM and advanced insight to it dammit
  • the Zhengui promise was a moment of weakness, and we should have told them to stop being babies rather than restricting ourselves (though working on actually working better with him and groups and not running off alone all the time was still the right move)
...
Another possibility I'd raise is that LQ is just flagellating herself here. Basically, she's hurting herself because otherwise it feels too much like her hurting Renxiang to protect herself, which makes her feel like a bad friend. If both of them had been hit though, she may have actually been cool with it. I haven't thought about the broader implications of this line of thought yet though.
 
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[X] In her own mind, with Sixiang, pondering the meaning of insights, and the demon gnawing at her heart.

The vote's easy enough, but the side discussion is making my head hurt....
 
  • Renxiang situation is identical to the above. Just apply our existing FVM and advanced insight to it dammit
  • the Zhengui promise was a moment of weakness, and we should have told them to stop being babies rather than restricting ourselves (though working on actually working better with him and groups and not running off alone all the time was still the right move)

I don't see how the second follows from the first. Accepting that tough love can be a real thing isn't the same as saying it must be applied in every situation always. If we get a "Tough Love is valid" insight that forces us to apply it all the time then I fell that would be a failure state.
 
I don't see how the second follows from the first. Accepting that tough love can be a real thing isn't the same as saying it must be applied in every situation always. If we get a "Tough Love is valid" insight that forces us to apply it all the time then I fell that would be a failure state.
That's for trying to resolve all the conflicts.

Just accepting that hurting our friends can in some cases be justified (following our existing insights) and *not* applying that as an answer to the first conflict means that we haven't actually resolved the heart demon.

I'm not saying this is the only way ofc, more noting it as one potential solution.

~~~
edit:
Hmmm, so I've talked in favour of treating the heart demon as a single unified thing before... but here's an alternative reading stemming from the above analysis:
The Renxiang incident is not actually a key part of the heart demon. It's more just a result of that part of our cultivation being metaphyically inflamed, so when we rub up around it it hurts. However, if we'd never triggered the heart demon in the first place, LQ could have actually just made this decision comfortably as consistent with her prior insights. However, because of the heart demon the area around her idea of "how hardline should I go on never hurting friends and when can I justify it" is uncertain and hurting and so this twinges it.

In this way, we might suggest that this incident can largely be handled fine with our existing insights, and as long as our solution to the initial heart demon problem doesn't then cause problems with the FVM and advanced insight then we'll be fine. This is sort of pulling together Abeo's suggestion that the heart demon is giving us false positives, and Aranfan's argument for treating the incidents separately.
 
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mm, so I've talked in favour of treating the heart demon as a single unified thing before... but here's an alternative reading stemming from the above analysis:
The Renxiang incident is not actually a key part of the heart demon. It's more just a result of that part of our cultivation being metaphyically inflamed, so when we rub up around it it hurts. However, if we'd never triggered the heart demon in the first place, LQ could have actually just made this decision comfortably as consistent with her prior insights. However, because of the heart demon the area around her idea of "how hardline should I go on never hurting friends and when can I justify it" is uncertain and hurting and so this twinges it.

In this way, we might suggest that this incident can largely be handled fine with our existing insights, and as long as our solution to the initial heart demon problem doesn't then cause problems with the FVM and advanced insight then we'll be fine. This is sort of pulling together Abeo's suggestion that the heart demon is giving us false positives, and Aranfan's argument for treating the incidents separately.
I imagine Ling Qi's choice to forego one AP a turn earlier in the quest would have pinged the Heart Demon if it had existed at the time. We probably had this Heart Demon coming for quite a while. I think it might have to do with the choices of the questers reflected in Ling Qi's own personality. We are the ones who consistently choose what we think is most optimal, pages of discussion about character growth for us and our companions, but we've also started making sacrifices in that optimality for family and loved ones. The AP vote did jolt the Heart Demon, and the comments about it proves it because it was a vote not about which was the best option but whether we should choose the optimal option at all. So Ling Qi has to define in an Advanced Insight what the questers considers the appropriate way to balance optimizing game mechanics and being a good person.

The reason our Heart Demon pinged with Renxiang was because people were commenting about the winning option being the practical one, the one that might not have been nice but did what was necessary. Exactly the same comments as when we voted for the opposite with Zhengui, triggering the Heart Demon. So we have to define the line, why was doing the optimal thing right with Renxiang's vote but the good thing right with Zhengui's vote? The Heart Demon didn't happen solely because of our Insights but also because Yrs detected inconsistent quester priorities about a core concept in our cultivation and is making us find some way to reconcile them.
 
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@yrsillar

Hi Yrs! Noticed a minor editing issue in the ebook/audiobook. Where you've changed the third pass to be awarded to Li Suyin rather than Huang Da, it isn't entirely consistent, you've not changed all the references. The next line mentions her getting one of the runner-up pills and that that isn't much comfort for her failure.
 
Turn 11: Arc 5-5:
She couldn't imagine Cai Renxiang approving of the decision to risk that if they didn't have too, especially if it was done only to spare her pain.
to
"How scandalous of you Baroness.
you, baroness.
"Really Baroness, what has gotten into you, speaking such strange things?
Really, baroness,
"That is quite enough baroness,"
enough, baroness
Ling Qi felt the breath driven from her lungs, and her hearts beat quicken to near the point of bursting.
heart's
She saw truth unfettered by the thin mask of human flesh and languid wit, the light of creation creation and destruction in all it's terrible glory.
creation
/She felt fingers like merciless razor edged shears plunge into her soul, severing some threads to lie on the floor and forth other strings of black.
(I can't make sense of this and have no clue with what to replace it. Maybe my english knowledge is just lacking.)
It was the echo of an echo, a child's memory of pain and incomprehension, made as clear as it was only by the nature of the liminal.
Liminal
She knew that the tiny fragment of the Duchess' truth she had witnessed was just that, else she too would be broken.
else she, too, would be broken
She felt her lieges hand on her shoulder, not quite returning the embrace, but not rejecting it either.
liege's
They stood in child's playroom, lit only by a faint sourceless gray light.
a faint, sourceless gray light (the self-doubt on this one is strong, but it feels right.)
Cai Renxiang hissed, the point of her saber pressing directly against the spirit closer.
She stood on solid stone, surrounded in white, but it was the natural haze of intense blizzard.
the natural haze of an intense blizzard
Ling Qi looked ahead and saw Black Skies Yearning, hovering in the air, her mask like face twisted in an expression that was both angry and worried.
Sky's
The ice spirit looked back at her with empty black eyes, and she felt its resentment, but there was something else too, the wariness of a predator that had just been bloodied by its prey.
something else, too,
What had Black Skies Yearning felt, she wondered?
Sky's
"The victory is yours child of winter,"
yours, child of winter

Ling Qi looked down at the floor, her hands balled into fists. She couldn't do it. Her mind spun out a thousand lines of argumentation she could raise, but it all came back to one thing. Their lives were in danger right now. Perhaps Liming would save Cai Renxiang, but what of the rest of them? It would ruin the mission in so many ways, and end the chance to lessen the impact of war in the south.

She couldn't imagine Cai Renxiang approving of the decision to risk that if they didn't have to, especially if it was done only to spare her pain. Yet Ling Qi was not Cai Renxiang, and deliberately hurting a friend twisted something in her chest. It made the ache she had borne for several months now throb like an open wound exposed to air.

"Ling Qi, you are beginning to concern me," Cai Renxiang said, watching her from the doorway. She stood with her arms crossed, frowning faintly. The simulacrum of Lin Hai stood behind her with a look of faint concern as well. "Are you certain you are well?"

"No, I don't think I am," Ling Qi said, raising her eyes. "I'm sorry for deflecting before, but I am actually here to remind you of something."

"Are you saying our Lady has forgotten something?" Lin Hai chuckled, laying a hand on her shoulder. "How scandalous of you, baroness. We have certainly been busy, but Lady Ren has not been that distracted."

Cai Renxiang however, looked slightly disquieted, and raised her hand to place over his. "No, Ling Qi has my trust. If she believes I have overlooked something, I will listen."

She paused then and shook her head. "Perhaps it would explain the distraction I have felt today."

Ling Qi pursed her lips. She wondered if that was a sign of her lieges mental struggle. "Renxiang, you've already had your dress fitting."

"She most certainly has not," Lin Hai said lightly. "As her tailor, I think I would recall that."

Ling Qi ignored him, and the glint of blue white ice in his eyes and met Renxiang's gaze steadily. "You're not though. Renxiang, you only have one dress, and your Mother made it. She made it years ago, and you've never worn anything else since."

"Ridiculous," Cai Renxiang's frown deepened into a scowl. "My honored Mother would not waste her craft on a child. That is why she had always refused my childish demands to meet her face to face before I achieved the third realm. It would be…"

Her face scrunched up in discomfort, and in a disquieting display for the stoic girl, visibly shook herself. "…pointlessly cruel," she breathed.

"Just so," Lin Hai said, resting his hand on his hip. "Really, baroness, what has gotten into you, speaking such strange things? Are you ill perhaps? Wading into Dream as you do can befuddle the mind."

"…Yes, that must be so. My apologies for misunderstanding your limits, Ling Qi," Cai Renxiang said. "I will see a physician brought in at once. Please take the rest of the afternoon to rest."

She sounded distracted and uncertain, and Ling Qi grimaced, shooting a dark look at the simulacra behind her. Cai Renxiang's discomfort was already fading. This spirit was still laying her thumb on the scale. Ling Qi stepped forward, within arms reach of her liege. "Renxiang, listen. You can't change the past. Even if it's painful, even if it's awful. You know that. I know that. Isn't that why you always talk about the future?"

Cai Renxiang narrowed her eyes. "Baroness, you are really being too familiar."

"Maybe, but how else would you know it's me?" Ling Qi said, she smiled, but it was a painful thing. "I wouldn't be who if I did not know loneliness. If you don't remember what it is you're trying to replace, do you think you can really build this? Make it more than a dream?"

She gestured to the window, beyond which lay the image of the idyllic city, and Renxiang grimaced, pain blooming on her features.

"That is quite enough, baroness," not-Lin Hai said, frowning at her. He moved to push her away, with all the implacable strength of a higher realm. "I know not what has disturbed your mind so, but Lady Ren does not need–"

His hand went through her shoulder as Ling Qi took hold of the dream's fabric and twisted it, stepping closer still to place her hands on Renxiang's shoulders. When she spoke again, Ling Qi's words felt sour on her tongue. "Remember Liming."

The world bent around her as she spoke the spirits' name, the sound of it distorting the air. Like water into which a stone had been dropped, the dream rippled. She was close enough to see Renxiang's eyes widen and her pupils shrink in terror.

"…Mother, Uncle, why?" The words that passed her lips were little more than a whisper, but they reverberated through the dream like thunder.

The light of the bright summer's day outside changed. Warm sunlight became harsh radiance, and the city boiled away into light. The mansion groaned as polished wood split apart, giving way to walls of gleaming metal

The office shuddered, and not-Lin Hai's expression twisted into a snarl, even as he dissolved, scoured away like the morning mist at the dawn. But Ling Qi felt the spirit's lingering malice bloom in the dream.
She was here.

Ling Qi could feel the power crushing down on her back, could see Renxiang looking over her shoulder, pain turning to terror in her eyes. She saw it without her eyes, for what were such pitiful mortal organs in the face of the Tyrant?

Radiance, radiance beyond description. A light that scoured and bleached and crumbled. Ling Qi felt the breath driven from her lungs, and her heart's beat quicken to near the point of bursting. She saw truth unfettered by the thin mask of human flesh and languid wit, the light of creation and destruction in all it's terrible glory.

Witness the implacable and infinite. Behold the Tyrant Progress, whose breath is the end of kings and whose hands are the builders of thrones.

She felt Cai Renxiang's shoulders shake under her hands even as the world was consumed in white. She saw the shadow of a workshop through tear and blood blurred eyes, walls of resplendent cloth and the tools of a weaver and tailor, wrought of the wood and metal of gods. She stood horrified/laid screaming upon the loom. She felt bile in her throat/She felt her flesh unspun. She heard a child scream/She felt fingers like merciless razor edged shears plunge into her soul, severing some threads to lie on the floor and forth other strings of black. She felt threads of herself wound round a spindle, prepared to be woven into a half finished gown of gold and white.

She saw the Tyrant pluck gleaming threads of diamond and adamant from her own self, and pass them through the eye of the embroidering needle.

It was the echo of an echo, a child's memory of pain and incomprehension, made as clear as it was only by the nature of the Liminal. She knew that the tiny fragment of the Duchess' truth she had witnessed was just that, else she, too, would be broken.

She knew that the light failed to truly scour her only because it was filtered through a child's memory. Even as the taste of acid burned her tongue, she did the only thing she could think of. Ling Qi stepped through the dream, and wrapped her arms around Renxiang, the real Renxiang, who stood frozen before her.

"You've withstood this already," Ling Qi said through gritted teeth. It wasn't just physical pain that made it hard to think. It was the feeling of betrayal, the intense emotion of a child's incomprehension and hurt at a pillar of their life performing an unforgivable hurt. "Renxiang, you've withstood this already! This is only a memory!"

Roll 1d100+30 bond, +10 Diplo choices

roll=100+40=140

Cai Renxiang stood stiff in her arms, shaking like a leaf, but as Ling Qi repeated herself, all but shouting in her ear, she felt the shaking stop, and heard the grinding of gritted teeth. She felt her liege's hand on her shoulder, not quite returning the embrace, but not rejecting it either.

The luminous workshop shattered like spun glass under a boot.

They stood in child's playroom, lit only by a faint, sourceless gray light. Ling Qi heard a deep, rumbling growl and felt the heat of bloodlust on her back. She felt Cai Renxiang's tension return in an instant, and the hand left her back as Cai Renxiang stepped out of her embrace, leveling Cifeng's curved blade at the slouched figure of Liming.

"Not one step closer," Cai Renxiang hissed, the point of her saber pressing directly against the spirit.

Liming cocked her head slowly to the side, long black hair falling away to reveal one gleaming eye of glass. Ling Qi swallowed as the spirit briefly looked at her, and then locked its gaze on Renxiang. There was something different about the spirit that Ling Qi could not quite place.

Then, with a deep rumble in its throat, the spirit reached out, and smeared it's bloody hand along the length of the blade. It took a step closer, and Cifeng punched through it's chest and out of it's back in a shower of blood. Liming grasped Cai Renxiang's wrist, and let out a low hiss.

Ling Qi realized what was different. The cloying hate the spirit exuded like mist was banked when it looked at Renxiang. It was replaced by ice cold contempt.

Cai Renxiang's eyes flicked over to her and then back to Liming. "Ling Qi–"

Whatever she might have said was lost as the playroom vanished in a flurry of snow.

Ling Qi almost stumbled as she came to herself high on the mountain ridge as a pulse of power reinforced the material world like the gate of a castle slamming shut. She stood on solid stone, surrounded in white, but it was the natural haze of an intense blizzard. She heard gasps of startlement from her companions, and the babble of her spirits in her head.

"Knew you had this," Sixiang said in her mind.

Ling Qi looked ahead and saw Black Sky's Yearning, hovering in the air, her mask like face twisted in an expression that was both angry and worried.

Ling Qi only realized that the spirit's attention was behind her as she heard stone shatter. Whipping her head around, she saw Cai Renxiang, her left arm buried up to the elbow in the mountainside, pebbles and grit still flying outward from where her fist had pulverized stone. The others behind her looked on in bewilderment as they shook off their dreams, but Ling Qi saw Cai Renxiang's face.

Her eyes were beacons of pale radiance, and the stoic girl's expression was twisted in hatred, glaring at the spirit in the snow beyond. It felt wrong seeing that expression on Cai Renxiang.

Ling Qi looked to the others; Xia Lin surreptitiously wiping moisture from her eyes, Gan Guangli looking at their liege with concern even as his fists clenched and unclenched, and Meng Dan, still smiling but with a distant look.

She glanced down to the light still shining from Liming's eyes and the heavy scent of blood and steel hanging in the air.

"I believe I have won our wager," Ling Qi said coolly. "It would be best if we passed through now, I think."

The ice spirit looked back at her with empty black eyes, and she felt its resentment, but there was something else, too, the wariness of a predator that had just been bloodied by its prey. She had felt the ripple of power that had yanked them fully back into the material world. What had Black Sky's Yearning felt, she wondered?

"The victory is yours child of winter," the spirit whispered sulkily even as its physical form dissolved. "Pass then with my blessing."

***​
AN: Part 2 of this update will be going up tomorrow thanks for your patience!
My god, that's quite the roll!
Since this is a two parter I'll just add the second part in the same post.
Turn 11: Arc 5-6
Silence fell in the wake of the spirits words, heavy and cloying.
spirit's
Raise your head baroness, and lead on.
your head, baroness,
"…Of course Lady Cai."
Of course, Lady Cai
She hoped Renxiang would forgive her what she had done.
forgive her for what she had done
She supposed Black Skies Yearning was upholding her end of the bargain.
Sky's
Black Skies Yearning had admitted she was kin.
Sky's (You know, at this point I'm thinking the name has been retconned and I should go back to the previous post and edit the name there instead of here.)
Despite that, Ling Qi found it difficult to focus on arts like the Playful Muse Rapport when her head was like this.
Muse's
playful Muses rapport | 379 Dice
Playful Muse's Rapport
Playful Muse Rapport
Passive Effects:
Muse's

Silence fell in the wake of the spirit's words, heavy and cloying. Even the shriek of the wind seemed dampened, and the cold less biting. Ling Qi turned to face her companions, and clasping her hands together bowed low.

"I apologize sincerely for the trouble my choice has caused," Ling Qi said. Images of Cai Renxiang's memories flashed in her head, and she felt her stomach churn a little. "I accept fault in the matter."

"Any path would have seen us face such a creature, there was no avoiding pain of some kind," Xia Lin responded first, her voice was a little thick. "I was, and am prepared to accept some pain for my duty."

There was a sound of falling stone, and Ling Qi saw pebbles and dust falling into the snow, even with her eyes down. When Cai Renxiang spoke, her voice was even and controlled, with no sign of the intense emotion that Ling Qi had seen on her face beforehand. "Xia Lin is correct. The Wall is riddled with dangerous spirits, and your actions have achieved our purposes. Raise your head, baroness, and lead on. I do not care to stay here."

Ling Qi straightened up reluctantly. "…Of course, Lady Cai."

She hoped Renxiang would forgive her for what she had done.

"I don't think that's the problem, Ling Qi. I don't think she's blaming you," Sixiang said as she turned around. "You are the one who wants forgiveness."

<Shouldn't I?> Ling Qi thought back, stepping forward on the narrow path. Snow was still falling, but the cold no longer seemed to sap at her bones, and the wind no longer threatened to tug her from the path. She supposed Black Sky's Yearning was upholding her end of the bargain. Such was the advantage of dealing with spirits.

"I'm only seeing this second hand, but I don't think you were wrong. I think you were choosing between two bad choices. Maybe you could have been gentler, but do you think that girl would appreciate that? Appreciate you risking everything on her feelings?" Sixiang replied calmly. "You opened a wound, but it's not one you made."

Ling Qi trudged on without replying. She still didn't like it. She hated what she had seen, and the pain she had caused to someone she cared for. It felt wrong.

"Big Sister is really greedy sometimes. She won't leave any responsibility for anyone else," Zhengui murmured. "Zhengui thinks that the mean aunty is the one everyone should be mad at."

"She was a jerk,"
Hanyi muttered sulkily. "I'm not broken."

<You're not,> Ling Qi sent back tiredly. <You're just yourself, and that is what Master Zeqing wanted.> Let others think what they wanted, Zeqing wasn't wrong in what she did. Black Sky's Yearning had admitted she was kin. If that was so they would just have to accept the difference in her line.

She glanced back to Renxiang with another twinge of guilt. There were things you shouldn't bend on. If only it was always so easy to tell where that line was.

***​

The hike through the glacial gorge took the rest of the day and more than half of the next, and never during that time did the storm seem as intense as it had been going in. It was still an unpleasant journey. The mood of the group was lower than it had ever been. Cai Renxiang gave out clipped orders when necessary, and otherwise remained silent. Xia Lin scouted the path ahead and returned, never spending more than a few minutes with the group.

Meng Dan seemed to recover the most quickly, and had his nose back in his studies within a few hours. He kept drawing Gan Guangli into conversation, distracting the larger boy from his own brooding. Ling Qi didn't listen in, but she was glad to see at least some of them didn't have their thoughts occupied by dark things.

Ling Qi distracted herself with the rhetorical exercises of her speech arts. Soon she would need to be in top form for negotiations. That alone was a valid reason to put away the unpleasant thoughts in her head, was it not? Despite that, Ling Qi found it difficult to focus on arts like the Playful Muse's Rapport when her head was like this. She was glad then that she had done much of the cultivation necessary during the early journey. She found herself wondering if she could really do this, convince total foreigners of a connection to the empire and a ceasefire, when her only practice with rhetorical arts were the sort of things useful for court parties. When she had been forced to use crude methods just to shake her friend out of a dream?

Despite the thoughts niggling at her though, the journey was coming to a close.

At last, their journey became an ascent as the narrow rocky path came to the end of the glacial gorge and rose along the sheer cliffs of the high snowy plain at its top. They were very far to the south now, off of any of the provinces official maps, and here the Wall began to thin out, mighty peaks no longer packed so densely, granting a view of the great scrub plains of hardy grass that lay beyond the mountains populated by hardy grasses and little else, from what Ling Qi could see.

But it was not that view which brought them up short. No, it was the unnatural peak that jutted from the plateau. It was a dark grey cone half visible through the snow, too regular to be natural, but too jagged and weathered to seem intentional. It was a heap of smelted iron ore in the shape of a mountain, piled and fused by forces unknown.

Ling Qi could feel a resonance in the iron shard as she looked upon it. That was their destination. She didn't object when Cai Renxiang called for a halt, to allow them a short rest before they made contact.
With Cai Renxiang secluding herself in the pavilion to meditate, Ling Qi found herself…

[] Drifting into the conversation between Gan Guangli and Meng Dan on the Mountain folk, where Hanyi sat listening idly.
[] Outside the pavilion, where Xia Lin sat beside Zhengui's bulk, staring thoughtfully out into the snow.
[] In her own mind, with Sixiang, pondering the meaning of insights, and the demon gnawing at her heart.


Moonless Saboteur's Smile | 868 Dice
10 5 7 7 6 3 9 4 9 3 6 5 4 10 7 8 10 1 10 9 6 1 1 10 2 4 1 4 2 9 3 3 2 5 6 5 5 9 10 8 2 10 4 3 5 3 9 10 6 5 1 6 5 10 5 2 3 9 2 7 2 6 3 9 10 9 5 8 2 5 9 2 8 6 8 1 9 6 5 1 2 3 4 7 9 10 8 2 5 8 5 8 9 10 8 1 7 4 2 7 4 6 2 6 9 10 6 9 7 7 4 9 2 5 4 7 1 9 10 8 2 10 5 6 5 2 6 9 5 9 5 10 10 7 6 10 2 5 2 10 2 7 7 7 5 6 2 6 9 9 6 10 5 4 3 1 10 3 10 7 1 3 2 5 7 2 3 7 5 6 6 8 8 8 6 6 2 3 5 3 1 1 1 3 6 7 10 2 7 9 8 9 5 9 1 4 8 8 5 6 5 2 10 8 7 5 8 2 1 6 1 1 4 1 2 3 9 8 9 2 10 9 5 4 5 10 8 1 4 10 8 7 6 8 9 6 7 5 1 6 6 8 5 7 5 7 10 4 1 10 1 5 1 8 4 5 3 2 6 10 8 5 5 4 3 6 6 7 2 2 4 10 5 3 4 4 6 5 8 4 1 4 2 10 8 8 4 9 3 3 3 2 7 2 6 4 3 8 5 10 10 10 7 6 7 2 2 1 5 6 7 4 8 4 8 5 7 9 7 5 8 7 1 8 9 9 5 5 1 4 3 5 2 2 8 1 1 6 6 1 10 4 2 5 3 5 10 5 5 8 9 2 5 3 10 2 4 8 3 4 10 4 3 8 3 1 2 3 6 1 8 6 8 1 1 6 9 2 2 8 3 6 9 5 1 10 4 10 3 6 9 5 1 6 9 6 7 8 3 2 5 6 2 2 2 2 6 10 1 7 5 7 10 9 8 2 6 1 2 5 4 10 1 9 8 10 9 9 4 1 1 10 4 10 8 10 8 5 2 2 7 6 8 10 6 5 1 2 1 8 6 2 4 10 3 3 8 9 9 7 7 9 7 8 2 9 10 10 8 4 9 6 2 5 6 2 3 2 8 8 1 3 10 8 2 2 7 4 5 9 3 6 3 7 9 6 8 6 5 1 7 1 3 10 6 6 5 9 1 5 9 2 9 1 6 6 3 2 4 10 6 3 8 3 9 7 7 2 1 1 1 6 2 7 9 2 3 8 6 8 5 5 1 9 3 5 10 3 4 9 9 1 6 9 6 8 1 5 6 6 7 8 1 4 4 6 10 9 3 10 6 8 6 5 6 7 9 4 9 8 10 4 10 5 5 3 7 7 3 4 6 2 2 2 1 7 2 1 4 3 6 5 10 9 9 10 8 8 8 1 10 5 7 8 10 10 8 10 10 2 9 1 6 10 4 10 5 9 5 4 2 6 4 8 7 2 6 4 8 6 2 3 4 10 9 4 1 9 1 8 8 8 7 2 1 2 3 3 3 10 9 1 8 3 8 5 3 6 5 5 10 1 7 5 8 3 7 5 1 9 1 7 1 10 6 9 5 3 9 5 10 5 7 6 5 7 7 3 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 5 1 6 7 7 10 10 8 1 7 5 7 4 7 10 6 8 7 4 3 5 6 8 10 4 3 4 3 10 9 4 6 9 3 2 9 6 2 10 3 2 3 1 7 1 2 6 10 10 7 7 8 5 1 8 3 1 8 2 8 4 7 9 10 9 4 2 2 1 10 5 2 4 3 9 8 3 8 1 8 6 7 3 2 3 1 10 6 2 6 2 10 9 4 1 6 4 10 8 6 2 3 2 3 8 5 2 1 1 2 5 1 4 2 5 8 7 6 1 4 6 6 6 3 10 9 1 9 7 8 6 1 9 3 4 2 8 1 3 5 7 3 8 3 9 9 6 1 8 3 1 8 1 7 4 4 7 9 7 2 10 5 10 | 426 Successes mean: 434 standard deviation: 14.73

Rerolling 88 mean: 86.80000000000001 standard deviation: 8.84
7 3 8 6 3 5 9 3 1 2 4 2 7 7 6 10 8 8 9 7 5 4 9 10 6 8 2 6 7 3 8 7 3 1 10 9 4 3 9 10 9 2 3 10 4 8 7 4 3 2 10 2 8 4 7 1 2 10 7 1 5 10 8 4 1 2 3 1 6 3 2 3 9 8 6 5 1 1 2 4 4 1 10 3 7 7 1 8 | 45x2=90 Successes mean: 88 standard deviation: 9.38

516x1.9=980 Successes mean: 989.5199999999999 standard deviation: 41.13
980/700

Third Word Achieved
280/1000

Playful Muse's Rapport | 379 Dice
10 6 4 2 8 5 6 2 4 5 5 5 5 10 2 1 4 6 3 2 8 10 10 7 7 8 2 8 9 6 2 8 9 6 9 1 10 4 3 6 2 1 9 2 8 4 9 4 9 5 1 10 1 6 10 9 1 7 10 4 3 5 4 2 8 2 2 5 1 9 4 1 5 5 4 5 6 9 5 9 10 2 4 6 3 9 7 7 5 4 7 7 9 9 10 10 1 3 7 7 4 4 5 7 5 2 9 1 5 3 6 9 1 5 6 5 9 2 2 6 3 9 9 2 8 7 4 4 8 1 8 6 3 4 10 9 7 7 10 8 4 6 8 9 9 7 6 5 10 10 9 2 6 7 2 2 6 2 9 6 3 1 10 5 7 5 9 10 4 1 6 5 5 9 6 10 7 1 7 10 4 4 2 1 1 3 5 7 4 7 3 2 2 10 9 8 7 3 4 6 2 9 4 1 10 2 1 3 1 1 6 5 9 9 6 3 8 9 8 3 6 1 6 8 9 7 5 3 7 8 7 1 5 8 4 9 9 8 8 1 3 7 4 3 6 8 9 2 2 8 2 7 2 10 6 10 8 5 1 10 6 2 7 8 5 4 8 3 3 9 2 5 3 6 10 10 5 1 5 6 3 8 10 6 4 9 7 3 5 9 1 9 6 2 5 9 8 5 1 9 1 2 7 8 1 5 10 7 7 7 6 6 4 2 4 5 1 3 8 1 4 3 9 3 9 6 10 2 3 9 8 1 9 3 8 5 9 7 8 3 8 2 10 4 5 10 3 2 7 6 10 2 6 3 5 4 10 3 5 2 1 1 8 9 10 6 3 4 7 3 10 8 2 3 4 2 9 8 2 | 188 Successes mean: 189.5 standard deviation: 9.73

Rerolling 35 mean: 37.9 standard deviation: 5.84
9 9 1 5 10 9 3 1 2 10 6 1 8 10 3 9 1 7 10 5 9 8 7 5 7 3 3 6 3 6 7 3 9 8 8 | 14x2=28 Successes mean: 35 standard deviation: 5.92

216x1.9=410 Successes mean: 432.06 standard deviation: 27.18

562/400

Second Fantasy Achieved
162/700

Playful Muse Rapport
Passive Effects:

+10 to Initiative
+20 to Social Perception
+15 to Speech
+15 to Empathy

Carefree Mantle: B
Duration: Long or Upkeep 5

It is not enough to merely follow the basic exercises of this art, to learn tricks of speaking and the use of humor as a smoothing and contrasting element in their rhetoric. To truly emulate the muse, one must defy certain ingrained social behaviors and learn to wear their emotion, their intent, their very self as a cloak. Though such openness can seem frightening to the neophyte, few methods are superior in conveying the sincerity of your intent. While active, the user receives a large bonus to speech tests when speaking honestly or attempting to convince others of their sincerity, and a similar bonus to poise and empathy tests

Deceiver's Foil: C
Duration: Short

The muse is a creature of pure expression, and many tales speak of the humorous humiliations which they sometimes heap on the dishonest and insincere. Though this art does not teach such excessive methods, through this technique, one may indeed suss out those who lie to the users face and find the inspiration to trip up and foil those with dishonest intent. The user receives a bonus to large Social Perception when attempting to detect lies and a bonus to speech when attempting to counter lies and misinformation. When used in conjunction with Carefree Mantle, this technique functions as if it were B rank for one test.

Cheerful Muse Accompaniment: B
Duration: Long

Some people can be quite rude, seeking to listen in on things that are not for their ears. Activating this technique, the user shrouds themselves and up to five other willing targets in a shroud of cheerful but inane speech, that at first seems important until eavesdroppers notice subjects and sentences alike circling back to their beginning in an endless loop of noise. Offers defense against social techniques, offering a significant bonus to the users poise when attempting to defend against outside listeners.

Moonless Saboteur's Smile

Passive Effects:
+15 to Poise for user and allies in the same social engagement
+20 to Speech+Manipulation tests
+10 to Government
+15 to Social Perception

Mirthful Sabotage: C
Duration: Long or Upkeep 5

Plots and schemes form a tangled and often fragile web. A practitioner of this art learns to see the threads which connect their foes and inform their plots and see the ways in which they may be brought embarrassing failure or revelation. While active the user receives a large bonus to social perception and tests which use the manipulation attribute as a component.

Timely Misdirection: C
Duration: Immediate

For the user, it is not enough to trick and sabotage their foes, ones allies must be protected from similar efforts. When engaged in a social encounter, the user may activate this art when an ally fails a test. Using a bit of wordplay or wit, the user draws attention from their allies mistake, allowing them to retry the test with a +30 bonus.

Lighthearted Gossip: B
Duration: Long

It is easy to make the eye and the ear slide away in the face of directionless words. To outside observers the users conversations appear as no more than irrelevant musings and circular nonsense. Affects the user and up to five designated targets within Near range. Opponents must exceed the users Manipulation+Speech derived with social perception in order to penetrate the screen.
Ughhhhh, what a vote. I'm not thinking about this today :Ü™
 
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The reason our Heart Demon pinged with Renxiang was because people were commenting about the winning option being the practical one, the one that might not have been nice but did what was necessary. Exactly the same comments as when we voted for the opposite with Zhengui, triggering the Heart Demon. So we have to define the line, why was doing the optimal thing right with Renxiang's vote but the good thing right with Zhengui's vote? The Heart Demon didn't happen solely because of our Insights but also because Yrs detected inconsistent quester priorities about a core concept in our cultivation and is making us find some way to reconcile them
Which hews back to the "these conflicts are both different aspects of the same heart demon, and we need to address all of them to deal with it" interpretation. And again I don't think that's a bad reading...

But I do feel there's an appeal to this alternative reading. I don't know if this apparent inconsistency was intended by yrs, but I feel that the "LQ should already know the answer in this situation" point raises interesting questions - as well as the potential for a more straightforward resolution - that we don't need anything tricky or new to handle this side of the conflict, as LQ already knows the answer. She's just having trouble committing1​.

If we can do that then, all we need to do is address the original Zhengui conflict. This could be done, as I've suggested, by also extending these principles back to that decision and saying that in retrospect it was a mistake, but that seems less popular. More popular seems to be trying to work out how to convince LQ that "cultivating family is the same as cultivating the self", which would address that side of things without causing any problems for our FVM/advanced insights that would interfere with our other resolutions...

~~
1​ In terms of basic rules for working out when she should apply these insights and accept suffering for the greater good (note here that her conception of the greater good means "ultimately produces better outcomes for friends and family"), I would suggest the following: Firstly - ask if she would be willing to eat it? Secondly, consider the other's perspective - as they wouldn't necessarily agree. If it she reasonably believes that all would consider it a defensible sacrifice, then proceed. If not then don't.

~~
I also kind of feel like there are some interesting questions around how LQ conceives of both failures to be "perfect" or "optimal", and her feeling bad about herself and her actions. Like, rn she's feeling bad about herself and feeling that she did something wrong. She wasn't able to get a perfect outcome that had no downsides for her and her friends... I would suggest though that it could be said that her decision can be correct here and that her feeling bad about hurting Renxiang is still a good thing. Like, it verges on my "LQ is flagellating herself because the decision didn't hurt her too and so it makes her feel like she did a selfish bad friend action" theory, but I would argue that feeling bad about things like this is actually good, as it serves as a reminder that such decisions should never be made easily, and should always be well justified. This goes back to the old criticism of the "hard men" that the problem with them is that the "hard decisions" aren't actually hard for them, so they make them too easily.

I guess I'd suggest that to a degree she needs to accept that she won't always be able to be perfect - and that's fine. But, at the same time she shouldn't just dismiss them, and should take her dislike of the situation as both a spur for growth and improvement (#SCS) as well as a reminder never to make such decisions lightly.
 
Which hews back to the "these conflicts are both different aspects of the same heart demon, and we need to address all of them to deal with it" interpretation. And again I don't think that's a bad reading...

But I do feel there's an appeal to this alternative reading. I don't know if this apparent inconsistency was intended by yrs, but I feel that the "LQ should already know the answer in this situation" point raises interesting questions - as well as the potential for a more straightforward resolution - that we don't need anything tricky or new to handle this side of the conflict, as LQ already knows the answer. She's just having trouble committing1​.

If we can do that then, all we need to do is address the original Zhengui conflict. This could be done, as I've suggested, by also extending these principles back to that decision and saying that in retrospect it was a mistake, but that seems less popular. More popular seems to be trying to work out how to convince LQ that "cultivating family is the same as cultivating the self", which would address that side of things without causing any problems for our FVM/advanced insights that would interfere with our other resolutions...

~~
1​ In terms of basic rules for working out when she should apply these insights and accept suffering for the greater good (note here that her conception of the greater good means "ultimately produces better outcomes for friends and family"), I would suggest the following: Firstly - ask if she would be willing to eat it? Secondly, consider the other's perspective - as they wouldn't necessarily agree. If it she reasonably believes that all would consider it a defensible sacrifice, then proceed. If not then don't.

~~
I also kind of feel like there are some interesting questions around how LQ conceives of both failures to be "perfect" or "optimal", and her feeling bad about herself and her actions. Like, rn she's feeling bad about herself and feeling that she did something wrong. She wasn't able to get a perfect outcome that had no downsides for her and her friends... I would suggest though that it could be said that her decision can be correct here and that her feeling bad about hurting Renxiang is still a good thing. Like, it verges on my "LQ is flagellating herself because the decision didn't hurt her too and so it makes her feel like she did a selfish bad friend action" theory, but I would argue that feeling bad about things like this is actually good, as it serves as a reminder that such decisions should never be made easily, and should always be well justified. This goes back to the old criticism of the "hard men" that the problem with them is that the "hard decisions" aren't actually hard for them, so they make them too easily.

I guess I'd suggest that to a degree she needs to accept that she won't always be able to be perfect - and that's fine. But, at the same time she shouldn't just dismiss them, and should take her dislike of the situation as both a spur for growth and improvement (#SCS) as well as a reminder never to make such decisions lightly.
I feel like the solution shouldn't be Ling Qi choosing either practicality or goodness over the other. Rather she should define what they have in common. She want to protect her family and she wants her family to be happy, so when these things are mutually exclusive she wants her family to be safe and happy in the long term, and weight these options with this in mind. So if we get told that there will be serious long term consequences for not making that promise to Zhengui then we make that promise. And if we think may be serious short term consequences for not using Renxiang's trauma then we do that. Ultimately making optimal decisions is part of playing a quest, we just have to define what Ling Qi's goal is and what she builds towards.

It's still a choice. It isn't about saying "Ling Qi should do for others what she would do for herself" because every person, situation and choice is unique and that doesn't always result in what Ling Qi wants. Ling Qi wants to progress, move, change, to never back down yet respect the decisions of others? Why? These things are methods, not purpose. If her family asks her to back down from her development then that is a conflict of methods. So if we define that development equals supporting family it becomes choice of which option ultimately makes her family happier, and we choose the optimal one. We don't back down but rather we learn that the best way to achieve her goal may be to listen, stubborn like water rather than mountain. Or not listen, because do this part of our family really know what's best for the whole of it? Either way we relentlessly choose what's best for our goal, without losing the agency to choose, while making it impossible for any of these three Insights to conflict.
 
But it was not that view which brought them up short. No, it was the unnatural peak that jutted from the plateau. It was a dark grey cone half visible through the snow, too regular to be natural, but too jagged and weathered to seem intentional. It was a heap of smelted iron ore in the shape of a mountain, piled and fused by forces unknown.
Huh, I guess we know where the Compact of Iron came from.

That's a lot of iron.
 
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