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Democratic transitions of power aren't "coups". Nor is accepting a peace deal at this stage a surrender.
The sudden overthrow of a government by a usually small group of persons in or previously in positions of authority.
:V

Letting Victorians dictate the peace terms now and intentionally preventing yourself from achieving all other objectives while not continuing a war is pretty much as close to a surrender as you can get without presenting it as such.
 
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[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue.
-[X] Blackwell is waiting to do enough damage to you that he can land a decisive blow. If you halt where you are and simply wait through the winter, you deny him that opportunity, and this momentary perception of victory starts to fade. Throughout, you'll send annoyance raids using your F-16s; this won't apply much pressure, but it'll at least make the point that you have in no way been beaten by this sanctioned terrorist attack. If he attacks in order to keep his symbolic victory, great, he'll suffer a massive defeat! If he doesn't attack, also fine. You'll withdraw with spring, your point made; that is your walk-away point. The risk is that this one plays really fast and loose with the risk of a regime change which, given the Farmers' stated stance that they'll peace out on first offer, will drastically undercut the message you're trying to convey.

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.

Let us not be cowards and cave to terrorists. Either of these options works for me.
 
For those of you voting for more war, let me just remind you yet again that we are at the end of our supply lines which are seriously stretched. You lot are succumbing to victory disease again and now your advocating sacrificing the people of Buffalo who are descendants of American Civilians just so we can pound on the Victs some more.

this is literally a new low as far as quests go for me. Sacrificing civilians is never a good choice and will stain the reputation of the Commonwealth forever even after we reveal that we have the Declaration of independence. I am begging you guys, fight if you must but don't sacrifice the People of buffalo like this.

Doing this is as close to GENOCIDE! of an entire city as I am uncomfortable getting to. The Victorians when they retake the city after we leave will kill them all, no if and or buts.
 
The objective we are trying to achieve is incredible mission creep.
The objective is a peace treaty that isn't written by Victorians or throwing away perfectly useful tools for nationbuilding, humanitarian efforts, and hampering Victoria down the line. That's a perfectly reasonable and moderate set of goals. If the idea is peace, then the war is about to end no matter what anyway so a little forethought would go a long way.

Hell, you'd have a valid argument the very next turn, but this is a uniquely poor time to try and push for "peace at all costs" due to the sheer number of people that'd be thrown under that particular bus (as of last count, the people of Buffalo in a Farmer surrender treaty or Victorian treaty that goes badly, literally everyone that gets killed because Victorians learn this style of attack works uniquely well on us, arguably the casualties of the war to date...)
 
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@Ugolino
Dude, no offense, but you're doing a very good job of actively arguing against the position you profess to want.
And I'm saying this as someone who is fairly invested here, and voted for continuing the war.
I'm suggesting strongly that you might want to step back for a moment.
 
For those of you voting for more war, let me just remind you yet again that we are at the end of our supply lines which are seriously stretched. You lot are succumbing to victory disease again and now your advocating sacrificing the people of Buffalo who are descendants of American Civilians just so we can pound on the Victs some more.

this is literally a new low as far as quests go for me. Sacrificing civilians is never a good choice and will stain the reputation of the Commonwealth forever even after we reveal that we have the Declaration of independence. I am begging you guys, fight if you must but don't sacrifice the People of buffalo like this.

Doing this is as close to GENOCIDE! of an entire city as I am uncomfortable getting to. The Victorians when they retake the city after we leave will kill them all, no if and or buts.
Anime, I know you said strategy isn't your strong point before, but the supply lines aren't referenced in most of the votes yet. It's a concern if this goes on past this vote, maybe, but the only vote this currently affects is "overplayed his hand" and maybe Buffalo if you squint a lot.

Similarly, the implication in the free city option isn't actually sacrificing them so much as needing to do what we're doing anyway. The only way I see anyone being sacrificed is if a peace treaty is rushed and we let the Victorians have their way on the people without arranging an evacuation- which I don't see happening with the current people running things.

@Ugolino
Dude, no offense, but you're doing a very good job of actively arguing against the position you profess to want.
And I'm saying this as someone who is fairly invested here, and voted for continuing the war.
I'm suggesting strongly that you might want to step back for a moment.
I'm aware the people pushing surrender are unlikely to actually change their minds or reread the pros and cons of the options, but point taken.
 
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For those of you voting for more war, let me just remind you yet again that we are at the end of our supply lines which are seriously stretched.

We have the ability to continue high tempo ops for about 1.5 months, and the window for actually doing something closes in the next couple of weeks.

...victory disease... descendants of American Civilians...

Ok? What difference does it make that the people of Buffalo are descended from American civilians? The army we destroyed was also presumably descended from American civilians. The militia we captured were descended from American civilians.

So I ask - what exactly is the argument being advanced here? That people descended from American civilians have some inherent value people descended from other groups don't? Because I would consider your words very, very carefully.

this is literally a new low as far as quests go for me. Sacrificing civilians is never a good choice and will stain the reputation of the Commonwealth forever even after we reveal that we have the Declaration of independence. I am begging you guys, fight if you must but don't sacrifice the People of buffalo like this.

There is no intention to sacrifice the people of Buffalo, simply an acceptance of realities on the ground. That is, the people of Buffalo are likely already slated to be made an example of post-war, given that they helped turn over the veterans to the Big Red One - they collaborated with the Communists.
 
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[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
 
We have the ability to continue high tempo ops for about 1.5 months, and the window for actually doing something closes in the next couple of weeks.
Just because we could doesn't mean we should. Our objective is to get the Vics to the negotiation table again after we took Buffalo. We won but some people are looking at our successes and thinking that it will continue. That is foolish and we are now in the position of needing to negotiate so that we can preserve our very overstretched supply lines.
There is no intention to sacrifice the people of Buffalo, simply an acceptance of realities on the ground. That is, the people of Buffalo are likely already slated to be made an example of post-war, given that they helped turn over the veterans to the Big Red One - they collaborated with the Communists.
I am not disagreeing with you in your statement. My point is that some of the voters are voting for using the People of Buffalo as bait even after they helped us. And I consider that to be a betrayal of those people and their sacrifices.
 
[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell is waiting to do enough damage to you that he can land a decisive blow. If you halt where you are and simply wait through the winter, you deny him that opportunity, and this momentary perception of victory starts to fade. Throughout, you'll send annoyance raids using your F-16s; this won't apply much pressure, but it'll at least make the point that you have in no way been beaten by this sanctioned terrorist attack. If he attacks in order to keep his symbolic victory, great, he'll suffer a massive defeat! If he doesn't attack, also fine. You'll withdraw with spring, your point made; that is your walk-away point. The risk is that this one plays really fast and loose with the risk of a regime change which, given the Farmers' stated stance that they'll peace out on first offer, will drastically undercut the message you're trying to convey.

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements of a Plebiscite of Independence for Buffalo. They hate Blackwell more than they hate you, and he knows it. Blackwell absolutely cannot ignore the threat this leaves, and has to to launch an attack immediately - which will end in a dismal failure.

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
 
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[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.

I'm confident that we can outmaneuver skill 0 non-mechanized troops while being able to run constant scouting air patrols.
 
Just because we could doesn't mean we should. Our objective is to get the Vics to the negotiation table again after we took Buffalo. We won but some people are looking at our successes and thinking that it will continue. That is foolish and we are now in the position of needing to negotiate so that we can preserve our very overstretched supply lines.

I am not disagreeing with you in your statement. My point is that some of the voters are voting for using the People of Buffalo as bait even after they helped us. And I consider that to be a betrayal of those people and their sacrifices.
..."Negotiating" in this vote doesn't have anything to do with supply lines, it just ends the war on Victorian terms. Also it makes the wins irrelevant due to the unique circumstances of this vote. Literally doing nothing for a round and then negotiating removes the penalties that apply to a treaty in this voting round.

Using the idea of the people as bait is paired with evacuating them.
 
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Anime, I know you said strategy isn't your strong point before, but the supply lines aren't referenced in most of the votes yet. It's a concern if this goes on past this vote, maybe, but the only vote this currently affects is "overplayed his hand" and maybe Buffalo if you squint a lot.

Similarly, the implication in the free city option isn't actually sacrificing them so much as needing to do what we're doing anyway. The only way I see anyone being sacrificed is if a peace treaty is rushed and we let the Victorians have their way on the people without arranging an evacuation- which I don't see happening with the current people running things.


I'm aware the people pushing surrender are unlikely to actually change their minds or reread the pros and cons of the options, but point taken.
Just saying, I was going to vote for the no war no peace or flying rainbow type options but you managed to convince me that we needed to go for peace.
 
[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
 
Just because we could doesn't mean we should. Our objective is to get the Vics to the negotiation table again after we took Buffalo. We won but some people are looking at our successes and thinking that it will continue. That is foolish and we are now in the position of needing to negotiate so that we can preserve our very overstretched supply lines.

The, objective, as you put it, was to take the Welland Canal in an effort to bring the Vics to the table. We succeed very, very handily in taking the Welland Canal, but our initial assumptions about its impact (as expressed in terms of our SecDef's PoV), turned out to be wrong.

We moved to Buffalo because we knew something was wrong and needed more Intel on the situation. Now we have Intel and a way to draw out the Vics.

Given the time limit we find ourselves under due to internal politics, the Buffalo option is the most practical option to force the engagement we want.

I am not disagreeing with you in your statement. My point is that some of the voters are voting for using the People of Buffalo as bait even after they helped us. And I consider that to be a betrayal of those people and their sacrifices.

Right well, here's a tidbit from the Discord you may appreciate about reprisals, even if we don't take this option.

PoptartProdigy said:
the reprisals will most likely continue until the Inquisitors are confident that anybody whom have aid to Commonwealth forces has paid for it.

...now I don't know about you, but this doesn't leave me very confident that the population of Buffalo is not already doomed.

Knowing this, we may as well commit so we can get a treaty which allows us not just to evacuate a few people, but may, through the inclusion of something like Free Migration, allow others to get out.
 
I am not disagreeing with you in your statement. My point is that some of the voters are voting for using the People of Buffalo as bait even after they helped us. And I consider that to be a betrayal of those people and their sacrifices.
We're not exactly condemning them to death.

We ARE forcing them to make an hard choice (in the "secession" option), that is undeniable: to come to the commonwealth with our troops once we leave Buffalo, or stay here and be killed.

And yet, I don't think this is as bad as it sound for them.

By this i mean that, simply put, once the shock of the transition passes they WILL be happier as refugees in our country than they could have ever been in Victoria.

We won't have them disappear in the night because they couldn't afford to make their "completely voluntary" donations.

We won't have them fo hungry because they need the money for flowers and flags.

The transition WILL be hard for them, but i fully expect that in a few months, a year at most, they WILL start to consider their new situation as an objective step up.


Also, there's one thing that hasn't been considered about leaving them here: the surviving civilians are mostly women, children and old people.

Children: we can deprogram them from the Victorian's mindset before it really takes (hopefully).

Old people: we have better medicine and healthcare than Victoria. We have more food. We won't let them go hungry. They'll certainly live longer with us than here, though as they're old they'll likely have the hardest time with the change.

Women: widows and unmarried women, they wouldn't have an easy life here. Those who STILL have husbands are really likely to lose them shortly. As we already know the CMC is incredibly likely to lose in the end, and all the civilians they conscripted from Buffalo are pretty much already dead if they lose.
Women left here would likely become slaves for the Victorian's resorts in the worst case scenario, and Maids/new wives in the best.


Still, the main point i want to emphasize is this:

IF we take the "feign elections" options, once we win (and we're certainly going to win), we are CERTAINLY going to push for the right to bring these people with us in the treaty.

We're not leaving here to die anyone that we can convince to come with us (and i expect that, after weeks of seeing how we treat them better than their own people (case in point: the assault during the parade), few will have more faith in Victoria's mercy (AH) than in our's.

To me the con of the Secession option is more in how it translates to our image with other people (and that can somewhat be mitigated by publicizing how we treat the victorian refugees we end up bringing with us i think) than in the consequences for the civilians themselves
 
[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
-[X] If you can make it unacceptable for Blackwell to keep waiting you out, he'll be forced to attack you, guaranteeing you a crushing, heavily symbolic victory. Put about on public broadcast announcements of a Plebiscite of Independence for Buffalo. They hate Blackwell more than they hate you, and he knows it. Blackwell absolutely cannot ignore the threat this leaves, and has to to launch an attack immediately - which will end in a dismal failure.


Even if this plan doesn't work for us when it comes down to negotiating, it'll still hamper Blackwell. Best of both worlds, from where I'm sitting.

E: Plebiscite gud, Victoria bad, but it's kind of ironic we're pulling a Crimea. Lol.

I'll go with the most straightforward one for now, but I can be persuaded to support another, and I'd probably support any of them over withdrawing.

Simply put, killing a bunch of militiamen probably isn't going to be very impressive to Blackwell and we aren't going to be expanding our perimeter anytime soon, which makes taking Rochester an unnecessary risk for a repeat of the Buffalo incident. Best case scenario, the schmuck raises another levy. Worst case scenario... Well, there are a great deal of risks inherent in attacking a force of light-footed troops on their own turf in the winter.

We have a chance to draw Blackwell into a set-piece defensive engagement against under equipped militia in the winter if we declare a free state. We can attrition his army to near nothing with the cold of winter.

If he doesn't take the bait, the Farmers will likely accept a treaty from Blackwell that includes the dismantling of Buffalo's free state. Or at least ensures that there will be no Commonwealth interference, which is basically the same thing considering it no longer has a male population, for all intents and purposes. For all that he will be encouraged to attack by his political circumstances, Blackwell just has to do the bare minimum of skirmishing to satisfy his more bellicose subjects. I don't see him making the fatal mistake of walking into that kill-zone, and I'd rather not see Victorian mortars landing in the city limits.

I'm not thrilled with attacking the infrastructure either tbh. Doing so will not only worsen our public perception (we are basically attacking civilian targets, and there's no way Blackwell won't exploit that), but also harms the common people who live in Victoria significantly. Furthermore, it's significantly more risky in terms of military strategy - if we 'free' Buffalo, Blackwell is forced to come attack us in our fortified position, and we've already seen how that goes. Meanwhile attacking the infrastructure allows Victoria to do what they do best - guerrilla warfare, and gives Blackwell the ability to bleed us and force a decisive engagement. None of this even mentions the long term repercussions of each option. After all, at some point someone who isn't Victoria is going to have control of the lands we'd be tearing up, and I don't imagine they'd be thrilled with our actions. Meanwhile having Buffalo as an ally either means we have a buffer state to fend off Victorian aggression (or serve as a Causus Belli when Victoria inevitably retakes it after we evacuate the civvies), or is the first step to more clay, depending on how we decide to deal with Buffalo in the future.

Bluntly, I feel that your analysis is missing a few key components.

First of all, Commonwealth troops are beholden to the rules of war, as, I think, most of us agree should be the case. Under the Geneva Convention, destruction of non-military targets integral to civilian functions, such as agriculture, hospitals, schools, etcetera is prohibited. What the destruction of infrastructure on the part of a lawful armed force is the targeting of buildings and features that could serve a military function. Consider the NATO bombing campaign in the Balkans War. Roads, railways, trains, bridges, so on and so forth.

Secondly, Victorian militias are massed at Rochester. With two or so divisions acting as road guards, units dedicated to the destruction of infrastructural targets will likely meet isolated and/or sporadic resistance, if any. The only spanner in the works that I could see would be the intervention of the CMC, which is unlikely considering the active channeling of Sherman by our troops upon the Loyalists' war fighting capabilities.

I will admit, I had the Toledans in mind, who are not, so far as I know, beholden to the rules of war and trained by the Victorians to boot. Just like Sherman's army, they may be over-zealous in their interpretation of their orders. However, they are institutionally tilted towards discipline and the promotion of clear-headed officers, I believe that they can resist the temptation to go full Genghis Khan on the Victorian populace. Further, their training from the Victorians will make them familiar with the enemy's possible ambush tactics and the mobility necessary to avoid encirclement in the event the Rochester militia manage to slip through our tripwire divisions.

For those of you voting for more war, let me just remind you yet again that we are at the end of our supply lines which are seriously stretched. You lot are succumbing to victory disease again and now your advocating sacrificing the people of Buffalo who are descendants of American Civilians just so we can pound on the Vics some more.

I, for one, am more interested in ensuring that, no matter what, Blackwell will be unable to object to safe passage for the people of Buffalo in the peace settlement. That is my number one priority in my decision-making process in this instance. It just so happens that I believe the best way to ensure that is to make it harder for the Loyalists to wage war in either direction.

Also, that's pretty reasonable of the Right-Wing Opposition, I think.

It makes sense. Part of right-wing ideology is the desire for a strong military, which necessitates an institution that promotes quality. In other words, the right-wing opposition see the failure in the Buffalo parade incident for what it is and wish to ensure it doesn't happen again.
 
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It wasn't spite, the arguments for the war that you presented convinced me that continuing the war would be a worse idea than suing for peace.
Then I fail to see how the idea of Buffalo's civilians ending up in Victorian hands, them learning that bombing civilians will be rewarded, or them actively dictating terms would be appealing to you but I suppose that's something you'd have to choose on your own.
 
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I will admit, I had the Toledans in mind, who are not, so far as I know, beholden to the rules of war and trained by the Victorians to boot. Just like Sherman's army, they may be over-zealous in their interpretation of their orders. However, they are institutionally tilted towards discipline and the promotion of clear-headed officers, I believe that they can resist the temptation to go full Genghis Khan on the Victorian populace. Further, their training from the Victorians will make them familiar with the enemy's possible ambush tactics and the mobility necessary to avoid encirclement in the event the Rochester militia manage to slip through our tripwire divisions.

Quick point of Order. We integrated Toledo, so those troops we are using would also be beholden to the laws of war of we are.
 
[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue.
-[X] Blackwell is waiting to do enough damage to you that he can land a decisive blow. If you halt where you are and simply wait through the winter, you deny him that opportunity, and this momentary perception of victory starts to fade. Throughout, you'll send annoyance raids using your F-16s; this won't apply much pressure, but it'll at least make the point that you have in no way been beaten by this sanctioned terrorist attack. If he attacks in order to keep his symbolic victory, great, he'll suffer a massive defeat! If he doesn't attack, also fine. You'll withdraw with spring, your point made; that is your walk-away point. The risk is that this one plays really fast and loose with the risk of a regime change which, given the Farmers' stated stance that they'll peace out on first offer, will drastically undercut the message you're trying to convey.

[X] This was not a decisive blow, merely a painful setback. It wasn't even a defeat! You achieved your operational objectives and pushed out the forces responsible for this. Operations will continue. Continue the war, now racing internal dissent as well as Loyalist pressure.
-[X] Blackwell wants to avoid your main strength and strike where you are weak? Two can play at that game. Advance a couple of divisions as tripwires against an assault from Rochester and disperse the rest into upstate New York. Tear up the industrial infrastructure Blackwell needs to fight these wars, and he will be forced to respond, allowing you to draw him out to battle on your own terms. The risk is that, when he responds, he managed to find a favorable engagement and bleed you enough that the victory you're seeking is denied.
 
The Victorians have already killed 20,000 people from buffalo before we arrived, not counting however many died when the crusaders took the city, or all of those impressed to fight us. Like. The death of those civilians is a horrible tragedy, but even if somehow none of them starved from the terrible food situation in Victoria, we still quite plausibly have saved more Victorians than we got killed, if we discount the enemy combatants, so even if for some reason we assign blame for that ontu us rather than the vics I'm not sure we come up red.

Now, that being said, I'm kinda nervous on declaring the Buffalo free state to draw in Victorian attack. I voted for it, but I'm still kinda leery, because I'm not sure what the treaty post war is gonna look like and we have word of GM that we're done with treaty haggling. If we could guarentee the right to evacuate them, which I think we will get via the free movement clause, I'm for it, but while I think it's likely we'll get that I'm not positive and if we don't the plan gets a lot of civilians killed. I still prefer it to negotiating with the victoria now, but if it doesn't come with movement clause post war I think it's worse than the attack or industry.
 
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