She has good reason to.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
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DangerKitty
shoddy writter
- Location
- lala land
[X] Ask her if that is really so bad? The Third realm was where cultivators set the foundations which guided the rest of their road. Of course divergences would appear.
Going with this because i believe that honesty is part of ling qis way due to the argent mirror. Reixang knows we cultivate this as well as the fact that i think if she continues on this path she will hit a humongous cultivation snarl, one that if it occurs would reflect upon us incredibly poorly as an advisor. Particularly to mommy shenhua, who if she does want reixang to become her own person may be counting on us exactly for things like this
Going with this because i believe that honesty is part of ling qis way due to the argent mirror. Reixang knows we cultivate this as well as the fact that i think if she continues on this path she will hit a humongous cultivation snarl, one that if it occurs would reflect upon us incredibly poorly as an advisor. Particularly to mommy shenhua, who if she does want reixang to become her own person may be counting on us exactly for things like this
[X] Ask her if that is really so bad? The Third realm was where cultivators set the foundations which guided the rest of their road. Of course divergences would appear.
The Ling Qi- CRX interaction is still clearly the same one (just repeated in more detail), so the real question is whether people think Meizhen is enough of an outsider that CRX will get extra-mad that we bring it up in front of her. Personally I don't, because we know that Meizhen and CRX have been building a pretty strong friendship of their own - I wouldn't be surprised if it was as strong or stronger than the friendship we ourselves have with CRX.
I'm not really sure this is the best accounting to use. We were first super rude to CRX because we saw her moping and essentially said "Your feelings have you moping around. You need to take care of that, can I help?", and should we now be blunt and rude we'd be saying "This thing you were moping about and are now sharing with us seems like it could be a heart demon. You need to take care of that, can I help?".
The Ling Qi- CRX interaction is still clearly the same one (just repeated in more detail), so the real question is whether people think Meizhen is enough of an outsider that CRX will get extra-mad that we bring it up in front of her. Personally I don't, because we know that Meizhen and CRX have been building a pretty strong friendship of their own - I wouldn't be surprised if it was as strong or stronger than the friendship we ourselves have with CRX.
Also can I say lol that Meizhen is and continues to be the most emotionally stable and healthy of our social group? The BAI is going to be the emotional councilor of her peers.
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I think the core of Renxiang's problem is that she's deviating from her plan for herself, and the meaninglessness of a foundational art for the Cai Way forced her to face that. That is, Renxiang is currently doubting her idea that she is meant to replace her mother as the Cai White and Duchess as part of a generational scheme to reform the political structure of the province.
The seeds of the problem would be during the Outer Sect tournament, the loss of Gan Guangli, I think; the failure of her personally handpicked retainer carried with it Shenhua's implicit disapproval of Renxiang's decision. In particular, Gan Guangli was a proof of Renxiang's ability to share the Cai vision for the future with their subordinates. His failure meant the idea that she has the ability to lead lost a pillar of support.
The introduction of Cai Tienli was also earthshaking for Renxiang. I think, like the child she was, Renxiang had simply never considered that the fundamental structure of the world could change; that her place as her mother's sole child and heir wasn't an immutable fact of the world. As such, she had to rethink her ideas of her mother's plans to account for another Cai whose position she doesn't know — whether Cai Tienli is meant to replace her, to be subordinate to her, to be married out of the clan? That is to say, the belief Renxiang has made for her cultivation base is now quite possibly rendered false.
The irrefutable proof that she cannot follow her mother's Way means that Renxiang now has to face the specter that her entire self-image is incompatible with reality. Simply put, Renxiang cannot take her mother's place like she thought she would.
And now Ling Qi can tell her that a misstep in the road doesn't invalidate her path (like how the Bloody Moon dream doesn't invalidate Ling Qi's own family-centric way) or that her path is still valid even if she doesn't know all the steps (like how Ling Qi is confident she'll reach the highest levels of cultivation despite having no idea how).
The seeds of the problem would be during the Outer Sect tournament, the loss of Gan Guangli, I think; the failure of her personally handpicked retainer carried with it Shenhua's implicit disapproval of Renxiang's decision. In particular, Gan Guangli was a proof of Renxiang's ability to share the Cai vision for the future with their subordinates. His failure meant the idea that she has the ability to lead lost a pillar of support.
The introduction of Cai Tienli was also earthshaking for Renxiang. I think, like the child she was, Renxiang had simply never considered that the fundamental structure of the world could change; that her place as her mother's sole child and heir wasn't an immutable fact of the world. As such, she had to rethink her ideas of her mother's plans to account for another Cai whose position she doesn't know — whether Cai Tienli is meant to replace her, to be subordinate to her, to be married out of the clan? That is to say, the belief Renxiang has made for her cultivation base is now quite possibly rendered false.
The irrefutable proof that she cannot follow her mother's Way means that Renxiang now has to face the specter that her entire self-image is incompatible with reality. Simply put, Renxiang cannot take her mother's place like she thought she would.
And now Ling Qi can tell her that a misstep in the road doesn't invalidate her path (like how the Bloody Moon dream doesn't invalidate Ling Qi's own family-centric way) or that her path is still valid even if she doesn't know all the steps (like how Ling Qi is confident she'll reach the highest levels of cultivation despite having no idea how).
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- Location
- France
[X] Ask her if that is really so bad? The Third realm was where cultivators set the foundations which guided the rest of their road. Of course divergences would appear.
I mean, even if the Cai clan contained a dozen mid-level cultivators it still wouldn't really be strong enough to rule the province without the white on top. I'm not sure what Shenhua's plan is, but it can't rely on a single inheritor continuing everything or it'll fall to pieces faster than her remaining 750 years will bleed away.
Renxiang's viewpoint here is fundamentally broken, and it's better to face this now than later. There is an absolutely incredible amount of risk to placing a Shenhua clone all the way from red to white on the Ducal seat, and even if it happened it wouldn't guarantee continuity of the Cai dynasty. Nevermind that Renxiang doesn't have any of Shenhua's formative experiences, which, from Shenhua's history seem to have had a lot to do with her rise. So of course Renxiang's cultivation is going to necessarily be different.
And that's all accepting that Renxiang faces no issues with her relationship with her mother, which we know is not true.
Renxiang's viewpoint here is fundamentally broken, and it's better to face this now than later. There is an absolutely incredible amount of risk to placing a Shenhua clone all the way from red to white on the Ducal seat, and even if it happened it wouldn't guarantee continuity of the Cai dynasty. Nevermind that Renxiang doesn't have any of Shenhua's formative experiences, which, from Shenhua's history seem to have had a lot to do with her rise. So of course Renxiang's cultivation is going to necessarily be different.
And that's all accepting that Renxiang faces no issues with her relationship with her mother, which we know is not true.
Mmm, what art do people think Renxiang had a problem with?
My suspicion is that it was Shenhua's Radiant Tyrant Art or whatever - the one Renxiang used in the prelims and notably did not like.
My general impression is that Renxiang is just kinda less domineering than Shenhua. Shenhua appears to be, in many ways, a product of the circumstances that shaped her. With the incompetence of the Hui, and the general state of ES, she tends towards "everyone else is stupid and incompetent and I have to make them do anything right". Renxiang, otoh, tends more towards diplomacy, and doesn't particularly like forcing her will on others. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing! It can even be quite good! While a degree of authoritarianism may have been necessary for Shenhua to bring order to ES, one could argue that for her successor it would be more important to be able to bring everyone else on board with the Shining Path, rather than to just try to impose order.
Right now though, I feel like Renxiang is panicking a bit in a "aaaaaa my simple rails for being a perfect good girl are gone what do I do what will mother be happy with aaaaaaa" way.
My suspicion is that it was Shenhua's Radiant Tyrant Art or whatever - the one Renxiang used in the prelims and notably did not like.
My general impression is that Renxiang is just kinda less domineering than Shenhua. Shenhua appears to be, in many ways, a product of the circumstances that shaped her. With the incompetence of the Hui, and the general state of ES, she tends towards "everyone else is stupid and incompetent and I have to make them do anything right". Renxiang, otoh, tends more towards diplomacy, and doesn't particularly like forcing her will on others. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing! It can even be quite good! While a degree of authoritarianism may have been necessary for Shenhua to bring order to ES, one could argue that for her successor it would be more important to be able to bring everyone else on board with the Shining Path, rather than to just try to impose order.
Right now though, I feel like Renxiang is panicking a bit in a "aaaaaa my simple rails for being a perfect good girl are gone what do I do what will mother be happy with aaaaaaa" way.
It could be anything, Radiant Tyrant is a good a guess as any. But I think the ultimate issue is that throughout the quest Renxiang has always imposed her order a different way than Shenhua. Whenever something happens the Duchess is always the first one taking action, delegating to others as needed so as to allow her to focus on one thing at a time (her taking over an entire ministry to root out corruption until new people could be trained, her clearing of the underground around Xiangmen). While Renxiang is proactive-- her showing up when during the ambush in Forge is a good example-- she's not as personal as things happen, willing to delegate to trusted subordinates so she may maintain a central location enabling her to receive information as situations develop.
This would inevitably create issues as Renxiang develops her way, since a general needs a different mindset than a tyrant.
TimEd
Meteor maker
I am absurdly confused as to why peeps want to pass this difficult talk to a later time?
This moment right here is the PERFECT time to tell CRX any uncomfortable truths due to her recent bout of weakness, along with her coming here which is basically admitting Ling Qi was right and that she does need help. Well, here she is, asking for help!
Frankly, Bai Meizhen is a closer friend to CRX than Ling Qi is, and if there is anyone who shouldnt be here is her, seeing as she's CRX's subbordinate and only barely an acquaintance. BUT, she did include us in the talks, and if we do LIE here (comforting though it may be [well its not technically a lie, but with the Argent Mirror, is that really what we want Ling Qi to say?]), then we waste CRX opening up to us not only regarding her Way, but also her quiet worries regarding her newly born sibling.
Also, not to alarm people, but they do realize that the sect is the front line for a War right?
Edit: added the technical truth bit.
This moment right here is the PERFECT time to tell CRX any uncomfortable truths due to her recent bout of weakness, along with her coming here which is basically admitting Ling Qi was right and that she does need help. Well, here she is, asking for help!
Frankly, Bai Meizhen is a closer friend to CRX than Ling Qi is, and if there is anyone who shouldnt be here is her, seeing as she's CRX's subbordinate and only barely an acquaintance. BUT, she did include us in the talks, and if we do LIE here (comforting though it may be [well its not technically a lie, but with the Argent Mirror, is that really what we want Ling Qi to say?]), then we waste CRX opening up to us not only regarding her Way, but also her quiet worries regarding her newly born sibling.
Also, not to alarm people, but they do realize that the sect is the front line for a War right?
Edit: added the technical truth bit.
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ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
[X] Ask her if that is really so bad? The Third realm was where cultivators set the foundations which guided the rest of their road. Of course divergences would appear.
I guess I just feel that we've been warned to not go too hard with CRX in the past (by Six who COINCIDENTALLY is WIA and not available to be our social crutch) and we've already gone harder than we ever had with her. CRX brain is broke and in trying to fix it we could get even more walls thrown up that will make it more difficult down the road.
Hell, we aren't even sure if CRX's jokes are her displaying a sense of humor or her faking a sense of humor because she thinks that is what we expect. We don't really have any idea how she'll react when we start putting pressure onto her psyche.
I can imagine in six months when Gan gets into the Inner Sect going "What the shit did you do?!?"
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EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Don't forget Meizhen herself who told us off this very update
Renxiang seems to structure herself as an organizer. Shenhua is more "I Am The Emerald Seas".
Renxiang grew up surrounded by competent help in a stable political structure. Shenhua's ascent was marked by a total lack of external competence
- Location
- Europe
[X] Ask her if that is really so bad? The Third realm was where cultivators set the foundations which guided the rest of their road. Of course divergences would appear.
I'm genuinely not sure what Renxiang was expecting here, though I'm not surprised.
There was never a chance that she'd grow perfectly in tune with her mother's arts, nor has there been any sign that her mother would actually want this from her.
This seems to be coming from the same part of her that thinks her mother is some kind if omniscient plotter who has no emotions and weaves people like cloth. The part of her that she gained as a child when overawed by her mother's presence.
If her mother wanted Renxiang to be more compatible with her way, I'm sure she'd have managed. If she wanted a perfect daughter who she controlled and who never made mistakes or deviated from her chosen path she wouldn't have sent her to the Sect in the first place.
It is implicit in her choice of sending Renxiang to the Sect, giving her tasks to fulfill and then noting her acceptable performance that divergent, even unacceptable performance was possible. From this it follows that Shenhua is not planning an inflexible future for her daughter, that she expects and explicitly enables Renxiang following her own path. Even if it diverges, so long as it is still acceptable within the greater framework.
This is consistent in her handling of Renxiang as well as her province.
For example: her decision to ensure that all her cities citizens have their basic needs seen too, but not to bind them into a particular form of service, makes clear that she values freedom and self expression.
Renxiang's belief that Shenhua would have a problem with her finding a different way is in direct contradiction with Shenhau's way. It also contradicts what we saw of the Tailor, who gained the confidence and Way to express themselves directly from Shenhua.
If anything, I believe Shenhua might be deliberately setting up her daughter to find a way that isn't a copy of herself, because not expressing Yourself might be all but anathema to her.
I'm genuinely not sure what Renxiang was expecting here, though I'm not surprised.
There was never a chance that she'd grow perfectly in tune with her mother's arts, nor has there been any sign that her mother would actually want this from her.
This seems to be coming from the same part of her that thinks her mother is some kind if omniscient plotter who has no emotions and weaves people like cloth. The part of her that she gained as a child when overawed by her mother's presence.
If her mother wanted Renxiang to be more compatible with her way, I'm sure she'd have managed. If she wanted a perfect daughter who she controlled and who never made mistakes or deviated from her chosen path she wouldn't have sent her to the Sect in the first place.
It is implicit in her choice of sending Renxiang to the Sect, giving her tasks to fulfill and then noting her acceptable performance that divergent, even unacceptable performance was possible. From this it follows that Shenhua is not planning an inflexible future for her daughter, that she expects and explicitly enables Renxiang following her own path. Even if it diverges, so long as it is still acceptable within the greater framework.
This is consistent in her handling of Renxiang as well as her province.
For example: her decision to ensure that all her cities citizens have their basic needs seen too, but not to bind them into a particular form of service, makes clear that she values freedom and self expression.
Renxiang's belief that Shenhua would have a problem with her finding a different way is in direct contradiction with Shenhau's way. It also contradicts what we saw of the Tailor, who gained the confidence and Way to express themselves directly from Shenhua.
If anything, I believe Shenhua might be deliberately setting up her daughter to find a way that isn't a copy of herself, because not expressing Yourself might be all but anathema to her.
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[X] Ask her if that is really so bad? The Third realm was where cultivators set the foundations which guided the rest of their road. Of course divergences would appear.
TimEd
Meteor maker
Quick question. (With how long this turned, guess its not so quick after all).
Do you guys think Cai-mom is aware as to what the effects of giving CRX a strand of Linming? And could it have been possible that she gave it to CRX as a panic move due to that one assassination attempt?
Could Cai-mom have given CRX goals that she thought were 'reasonable' instead of the overachievements that CRX and Ling Qi thought they were are we're just getting confused due to Cai-mom being too much of a genius fo even remember what is considered 'normal' at their stage?
Could Cai-mom be a Massive Tsundere whose Tsun-ness is due to her Way giving little to no give? We have quite a few 'evidences' to support this conclusion.
Really, aside from the damage to CRX as a child, I think the main factor as to why CRX thinks Cai-mom finds her lacking is due to Diao Lingqin's hostility to CRX, which might also be rooted in her hating CRX for causing poor Cai-mom's Tsundere heart to be hurt becausr Cai-mom is too strong to show her dere side and fears hurting CRX again.
Edit: apologies if this is sonething the thread already intuited long ago, I rarely follow all the pages of discussion.
Do you guys think Cai-mom is aware as to what the effects of giving CRX a strand of Linming? And could it have been possible that she gave it to CRX as a panic move due to that one assassination attempt?
Could Cai-mom have given CRX goals that she thought were 'reasonable' instead of the overachievements that CRX and Ling Qi thought they were are we're just getting confused due to Cai-mom being too much of a genius fo even remember what is considered 'normal' at their stage?
Could Cai-mom be a Massive Tsundere whose Tsun-ness is due to her Way giving little to no give? We have quite a few 'evidences' to support this conclusion.
Really, aside from the damage to CRX as a child, I think the main factor as to why CRX thinks Cai-mom finds her lacking is due to Diao Lingqin's hostility to CRX, which might also be rooted in her hating CRX for causing poor Cai-mom's Tsundere heart to be hurt becausr Cai-mom is too strong to show her dere side and fears hurting CRX again.
Edit: apologies if this is sonething the thread already intuited long ago, I rarely follow all the pages of discussion.
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- Location
- UK
[X] Ask her if that is really so bad? The Third realm was where cultivators set the foundations which guided the rest of their road. Of course divergences would appear.
The social tension in the past few updates has really been something else.
The social tension in the past few updates has really been something else.