As i remember it , the same skill for Tim that lets him enhance the strength of a Core, is also used to impart Rare Skills ..... So if we happened to find someone with a rare skill to get a DNA sample off of for Tim to refine.....
Like say, Regenerator given to a melee-focused mage?
In fact, I'm just going to lay this one out here before any more faulty assumptions take root. If you are picking a specialization because you think it will let you successfully fight or survive an Endbringer hand to hand, YOU ARE WRONG and will be exploring the reincarnation mechanic.
The timing for this vote is actually rather appropriate in that all four of these options will give the most benefit in mid-level fights, such as fighting several capes at once. You can shore up your weak points (Undaunted or Infinite Enhancement) or polish up your strengths (Arms Master or Assault), but do not think that any of these are about to turn you into a melee expert.
Regarding the Endbringers… Taylor's primary template, which is the main way she fights and where her strongest abilities lay, is still and always will be the bombardment specialist Calamity Witch. If you want to play at being a Knight against Behemoth, I can only wish you good luck and will be laughing when you fail.
This is a better mindset, though dodging is still superior.
NOPE. The secondary cross training is honestly more for flavor than anything else.
As far as I can tell Undaunted just means we're a bombardment specialist who can handle undirected wide area attacks that the Endbringers toss out as mook clearers a bit better.
If you're going toe to toe you deserve what you get
I would like for them to be a little better matched up, though, especially as there are a couple of people who I would like to see without templates too (and one who I will basically forbid you from giving a template), so if you or anyone else have any suggestions for how to make regular Devices more appealing, I'd be happy to hear them.
Rather than a number of static skills make them specializations and/or complexity, then as they go up in rank they get more specializations and more flexibility on what they can do with their magic.
They still would get a fixed number of spells at first, but would get to acquire new ones through combat or use, same as Taylor. Since they are learning from zero rather than remembering from a Template, after combat we would get a number of new spells or improvements to pick from, based on which spells or actions were used to win (or lose graciously).
As i remember it , the same skill for Tim that lets him enhance the strength of a Core, is also used to impart Rare Skills ..... So if we happened to find someone with a rare skill to get a DNA sample off of for Tim to refine.....
Like say, Regenerator given to a melee-focused mage?
Rather than a number of static skills make them specializations and/or complexity, then as they go up in rank they get more specializations and more flexibility on what they can do with their magic.
They still would get a fixed number of spells at first, but would get to acquire new ones through combat or use, same as Taylor. Since they are learning from zero rather than remembering from a Template, after combat we would get a number of new spells or improvements to pick from, based on which spells or actions were used to win (or lose graciously).
The biggest issue with that is that Device type already gives them a specialization, which means we'd have to subdivide spells into further subspecializations which would be its own special brand of headache. The other issue with doing the roulette wheel like in Arc 1 is that it seems like it would take away one of the biggest draws of regular mages in that they get to be as freeform as you want.
Here are some other options I came up with, spoilered below so as not to bother anyone who doesn't care.
I've also been thinking about this problem for the last… *checks* hour and a half-ish? I can't implement the easiest solution, which is paring down the templates, without causing hella outrage, so instead I've been thinking about how to boost up the regular Devices. Here are two ideas that the rabid rabbits in my brain have pulled out, but I know they aren't the only options and probably not the best options.
As background, I am NOT changing any of the the following:
1) Templates slowly increase the LC rank of their bearers
2) Templates eradicate pre-existing Rare Skills
3) Certain spells are limited by rank, most importantly flight at B rank and Busters/Breakers at B/AA rank respectively
All that being said, my current ideas are:
Vancian-lite
Similar to D&D wizards, any mage can know any number of spells. They can only have X spells "memorized", with that number being based on their rank rather than level. E.g., a D-ranker can have 1 spell ready to cast at a time while a AAA-ranker can have 6. At some point, probably the end of every arc, you'd get to pick or design another spell for them to have in their "spellbook" to access later.
Pros/Cons:
+ Familiar framework. I don't play D&D, and I'm sure many other people don't either, but I bet everyone on SV has at least heard about the basics of this setup.
+ Keeps the different ranks fairly balanced.
– It would be very, very hard to resist the temptation to apply the same logic to template mages if the logic is that mages can only remember so many spells at a time. Otherwise, it doesn't really fix the problem of regular mages not having as many spells as a template because so many of them will be unusable.
– Trying to manage when to re-memorize the list and putting it up to a player vote would be a pain in the ass. You guys can barely agree on anything, and as the list grew longer it would become more and more of a contentious vote.
Slow Grow
My other idea, which sounds like it might be similar to yours, is a two-tier system where at some point the mage can learn a new spell but have it be in a "slow-cast" pool. This is because unlike templates, which "remember" their spells and so have that memory to help them cast it whenever, these spells would be ones the normal mage doesn't know well and so needs to rely more on their Device. As a result, it wouldn't be combat-useful but still available. By spending a second point on it or maybe after casting it so many times, they have become more familiar with it and so it moves into the "quick-cast" pool that they can use at a moment's notice, such as during combat.
Pros/Cons:
+ Fairly easy to manage because it's similar to how the templates work already. As the mage grows in experience, they have more spells they can use whenever they want.
+ Not all spells need to be combat-useful, like teleportation that already has a delay, so being slow-cast wouldn't be a hindrance.
– There isn't a great timing for learning those spells. Needing two arcs to get one spell combat ready is way too long, but narratively I don't know that two fights would be enough time to take a spell from "never learned it" to "I'm combat ready!". Nanoha did, but she was also mentioned in-series to be a phenomenally fast learner.
– I feel like there is a bias either toward or against the low ranks here. I know it sounds weird that I can't pin down which it is, but it depends on where they are in their growth. Early on, they are progressing as quickly as the higher ranks, so a D-ranker could easily who has been around for even a short while is way stronger than a new AAA-ranker. Later on, they would probably run out of useful spells to learn, and with how quickly they are learning that would come sooner than in the Vancian-lite setup.
As i remember it , the same skill for Tim that lets him enhance the strength of a Core, is also used to impart Rare Skills ..... So if we happened to find someone with a rare skill to get a DNA sample off of for Tim to refine.....
Like say, Regenerator given to a melee-focused mage?
I missed that one. We need a blood sample from Epoch. Would working out a specific rare skill to give somebody require a build slot, or would that just be rolled into the build costs for making the mutagen, since you said they had to be customized for each victimwilling subject, anyway?
Upgrading the Flare Blade would require one to go into melee in order to leverage it(unless the upgrade somehow turns it into a ranged attack). A defense buff, however, can be used at any range.
I'm sort on board with this one, but I have a few issues in that A: It's way too slow, as you said. One spell per arc would make Device mages a really long time investment, and again, why spend so much time on a comparitebly limited spell list when you could have a Template and just go.
Which brings me to my next issue, that this doesn't fix the issue that in the long term the Templates run circles around Devices due to the latters limited set.
One way you could do this is this (underlined parts are my own addition)
Name: Howard King
Boost Device: Hiallus
Linker Core rank: C
Affiliation: independent, formerly Adepts
SPELLS
(6/6) Strike Boost – Increase force of the recipient's physical attacks. Synergizes with certain Brute and Striker powers. Effect lasts 120 seconds.
–(1/6) Defensive Boost – Decrease amount of physical damage received by the recipient. Synergizes with certain Brute and Striker powers. Effect lasts 60 seconds.
(3/6)Cape Boost – Increase effectiveness and temporarily lifts limits on the recipient's parahuman powers. Effect lasts 60 seconds.
(6/6)Physical Heal – Heal mild to severe injuries. Can stabilize grievous wounds. This takes up to 30 seconds per area of injury.
-(2/6) Advanced Heal – More potent healing. With concentration can restore critical and life threatening injuries back to health. Takes about 10 minutes per area.
(4/6)Create Boosted Artifact – Enchant an item so that it will grant a milder version of any of his support spells to whomever uses the item. Use of the item decreases its "charge". The more charge an item already holds, the harder it is to further enchant it.
I'm not really expecting Mac to go around punching people, but the solution in my opinion would be to expand the capacity for Devices to grow. Same as Templates they'd start with a set number of skills which they'd need to master to unlock the next ability, which is to say get into fights and/or use them repeatedly again, same as Templates.
Difference is, they'd need a bit more effort to do so and their ceiling would vary depending on their Core's rank. To avoid any headaches, the new skills could be based on ones already mastered. Rather than unlocking Pretty Cure through mastering Telekinesis, they could begin with healing skills like Mac up there and gain new ones related to that.
I dunno, I may actually be complicating things further.
They need to be B rank or higher to support a Rare Skill, but otherwise sure.
The biggest issue with that is that Device type already gives them a specialization, which means we'd have to subdivide spells into further subspecializations which would be its own special brand of headache. The other issue with doing the roulette wheel like in Arc 1 is that it seems like it would take away one of the biggest draws of regular mages in that they get to be as freeform as you want.
Here are some other options I came up with, spoilered below so as not to bother anyone who doesn't care.
I've also been thinking about this problem for the last… *checks* hour and a half-ish? I can't implement the easiest solution, which is paring down the templates, without causing hella outrage, so instead I've been thinking about how to boost up the regular Devices. Here are two ideas that the rabid rabbits in my brain have pulled out, but I know they aren't the only options and probably not the best options.
As background, I am NOT changing any of the the following:
1) Templates slowly increase the LC rank of their bearers
2) Templates eradicate pre-existing Rare Skills
3) Certain spells are limited by rank, most importantly flight at B rank and Busters/Breakers at B/AA rank respectively
All that being said, my current ideas are:
Vancian-lite
Similar to D&D wizards, any mage can know any number of spells. They can only have X spells "memorized", with that number being based on their rank rather than level. E.g., a D-ranker can have 1 spell ready to cast at a time while a AAA-ranker can have 6. At some point, probably the end of every arc, you'd get to pick or design another spell for them to have in their "spellbook" to access later.
Pros/Cons:
+ Familiar framework. I don't play D&D, and I'm sure many other people don't either, but I bet everyone on SV has at least heard about the basics of this setup.
+ Keeps the different ranks fairly balanced.
– It would be very, very hard to resist the temptation to apply the same logic to template mages if the logic is that mages can only remember so many spells at a time. Otherwise, it doesn't really fix the problem of regular mages not having as many spells as a template because so many of them will be unusable.
– Trying to manage when to re-memorize the list and putting it up to a player vote would be a pain in the ass. You guys can barely agree on anything, and as the list grew longer it would become more and more of a contentious vote.
Slow Grow
My other idea, which sounds like it might be similar to yours, is a two-tier system where at some point the mage can learn a new spell but have it be in a "slow-cast" pool. This is because unlike templates, which "remember" their spells and so have that memory to help them cast it whenever, these spells would be ones the normal mage doesn't know well and so needs to rely more on their Device. As a result, it wouldn't be combat-useful but still available. By spending a second point on it or maybe after casting it so many times, they have become more familiar with it and so it moves into the "quick-cast" pool that they can use at a moment's notice, such as during combat.
Pros/Cons:
+ Fairly easy to manage because it's similar to how the templates work already. As the mage grows in experience, they have more spells they can use whenever they want.
+ Not all spells need to be combat-useful, like teleportation that already has a delay, so being slow-cast wouldn't be a hindrance.
– There isn't a great timing for learning those spells. Needing two arcs to get one spell combat ready is way too long, but narratively I don't know that two fights would be enough time to take a spell from "never learned it" to "I'm combat ready!". Nanoha did, but she was also mentioned in-series to be a phenomenally fast learner.
– I feel like there is a bias either toward or against the low ranks here. I know it sounds weird that I can't pin down which it is, but it depends on where they are in their growth. Early on, they are progressing as quickly as the higher ranks, so a D-ranker could easily who has been around for even a short while is way stronger than a new AAA-ranker. Later on, they would probably run out of useful spells to learn, and with how quickly they are learning that would come sooner than in the Vancian-lite setup.
Honestly, I think the best solution would be running slow grow backwards with a smidge of vancian,
As the caster and device work through the spell programming together and get on the same page, they can move it into the quick retrieval folder, where they and the device can cast it quickly and efficiently. This folder would essentially be a set of quick and dirty cue cards, and having too many of them loaded becomes inefficient for the caster. The slow casting folder is where the device walks the mage through the spell formulae, thus making it far slower. Template Mages are pulling from stored memories of casting with near perfect recall, and thus allow for fast casting of their entire library.
There's a reason I didn't start using a Vancian system from the start. Although I have to admit that the majority of my issue with that system is number of casts per time frame rather than restricted spell selection.
I'm not really expecting Mac to go around punching people, but the solution in my opinion would be to expand the capacity for Devices to grow. Same as Templates they'd start with a set number of skills which they'd need to master to unlock the next ability, which is to say get into fights and/or use them repeatedly again, same as Templates.
Difference is, they'd need a bit more effort to do so and their ceiling would vary depending on their Core's rank. To avoid any headaches, the new skills could be based on ones already mastered. Rather than unlocking Pretty Cure through mastering Telekinesis, they could begin with healing skills like Mac up there and gain new ones related to that.
I dunno, I may actually be complicating things further.
I think I understand where you're going with this one. Basically once they get their baseline skills in chargen, those are the start of individual skill branches. And unlike Slow Grow where each new spell could be picked independently, these have to be related to the parent skill. Is that about right?
How would we determine ceiling though? A set number of overall skills based on rank? Limit each branch to 3 skills total, as (mostly) done by the templates?
I'm not entirely sure how Reverse Slow is different to Slow Grow minus the maximum "efficient number", and certainly not how it is running backwards. Could you explain?
I think I understand where you're going with this one. Basically once they get their baseline skills in chargen, those are the start of individual skill branches. And unlike Slow Grow where each new spell could be picked independently, these have to be related to the parent skill. Is that about right?
How would we determine ceiling though? A set number of overall skills based on rank? Limit each branch to 3 skills total, as (mostly) done by the templates?
This would work I feel, though I think that the ceiling should be less the amount of things you can do and more how far you can take them. If the mage put all three their spells in say, long range fighting, they'd end up stronger at that than if they'd invested in three different doctrines.
So yeah, taking Maclibuin as an example again, a D-Rank when maxed out would get 6 spells total, a C-Rank 9, and from B-Rank onwards 12. The difference from B-Rank to A-Rank would be the amount of power you would be able to put out, AKA Buster and Breaker spells, and their melee/non-combat equivalents.
I'd also say that the further along the spell list you go, the costier it'd be to master each spell, with the end-tier abilities of an AAA being really hard to obtain.
That's more or less all I got. Probably a bunch of terrible ideas up there, but if you can salvage something from it I'm happy.
On having standard device vs template... maybe have the devices have more flexibility in how the images use the magic and branch out from it?
Like how Nanoha developed Starlight Breaker as a variation of Divine Buster. If the mage has good enough understanding of the magic they can tinker with it to try to say, shore up weaknesses or try to get use out of it in a different way. This would require the mage to have a lot of mental flexibility and good grounding in math of course. And would eventually get a entirely new spell out of it.
This will obviously also take a lot of time. And I don't know how this can be represented in the quest mechanics.
I'm not entirely sure how Reverse Slow is different to Slow Grow minus the maximum "efficient number", and certainly not how it is running backwards. Could you explain?
... Nah, you're right, it's more Hybrid Slow Vancian than anything else. Slightly faster usable speed with the cue cards system, I'd say a month/arc would be enough to get a spell into the card stage, and perhaps a "rote" stage where a spell becomes second nature, which is slower by a chunk, say three arcs, but allows the user to gather more functionality beyond the card system?
I agree it's not for endbringer fights, without question. As SW pointed out: "Mid level" Endbringer fights are always mega-boss levels. How many mid level fights has Taylor Been in?
Mmmm? If she had more defense, Vista might not be short an arm, she'd have been able to tank the blow that cost Vista the arm.
I agree it's not for endbringer fights, without question. As SW pointed out: "Mid level" Endbringer fights are always mega-boss levels. How many mid level fights has Taylor Been in?
Mmmm? If she had more defense, Vista might not be short an arm, she'd have been able to tank the blow that cost Vista the arm.
If you use defending your allies as your arguement, you should go with the "buff others" option.
But really, am I the only one who thinks being able to better scythe down opponents is the best choice? Remember Taylor playing Reaper this arc and then imagine doing that to higher level enemies. Arms Master is the right choice for that.
They need to be B rank or higher to support a Rare Skill, but otherwise sure.
The biggest issue with that is that Device type already gives them a specialization, which means we'd have to subdivide spells into further subspecializations which would be its own special brand of headache. The other issue with doing the roulette wheel like in Arc 1 is that it seems like it would take away one of the biggest draws of regular mages in that they get to be as freeform as you want.
Here are some other options I came up with, spoilered below so as not to bother anyone who doesn't care.
I've also been thinking about this problem for the last… *checks* hour and a half-ish? I can't implement the easiest solution, which is paring down the templates, without causing hella outrage, so instead I've been thinking about how to boost up the regular Devices. Here are two ideas that the rabid rabbits in my brain have pulled out, but I know they aren't the only options and probably not the best options.
As background, I am NOT changing any of the the following:
1) Templates slowly increase the LC rank of their bearers
2) Templates eradicate pre-existing Rare Skills
3) Certain spells are limited by rank, most importantly flight at B rank and Busters/Breakers at B/AA rank respectively
All that being said, my current ideas are:
Vancian-lite
Similar to D&D wizards, any mage can know any number of spells. They can only have X spells "memorized", with that number being based on their rank rather than level. E.g., a D-ranker can have 1 spell ready to cast at a time while a AAA-ranker can have 6. At some point, probably the end of every arc, you'd get to pick or design another spell for them to have in their "spellbook" to access later.
Pros/Cons:
+ Familiar framework. I don't play D&D, and I'm sure many other people don't either, but I bet everyone on SV has at least heard about the basics of this setup.
+ Keeps the different ranks fairly balanced.
– It would be very, very hard to resist the temptation to apply the same logic to template mages if the logic is that mages can only remember so many spells at a time. Otherwise, it doesn't really fix the problem of regular mages not having as many spells as a template because so many of them will be unusable.
– Trying to manage when to re-memorize the list and putting it up to a player vote would be a pain in the ass. You guys can barely agree on anything, and as the list grew longer it would become more and more of a contentious vote.
Slow Grow
My other idea, which sounds like it might be similar to yours, is a two-tier system where at some point the mage can learn a new spell but have it be in a "slow-cast" pool. This is because unlike templates, which "remember" their spells and so have that memory to help them cast it whenever, these spells would be ones the normal mage doesn't know well and so needs to rely more on their Device. As a result, it wouldn't be combat-useful but still available. By spending a second point on it or maybe after casting it so many times, they have become more familiar with it and so it moves into the "quick-cast" pool that they can use at a moment's notice, such as during combat.
Pros/Cons:
+ Fairly easy to manage because it's similar to how the templates work already. As the mage grows in experience, they have more spells they can use whenever they want.
+ Not all spells need to be combat-useful, like teleportation that already has a delay, so being slow-cast wouldn't be a hindrance.
– There isn't a great timing for learning those spells. Needing two arcs to get one spell combat ready is way too long, but narratively I don't know that two fights would be enough time to take a spell from "never learned it" to "I'm combat ready!". Nanoha did, but she was also mentioned in-series to be a phenomenally fast learner.
– I feel like there is a bias either toward or against the low ranks here. I know it sounds weird that I can't pin down which it is, but it depends on where they are in their growth. Early on, they are progressing as quickly as the higher ranks, so a D-ranker could easily who has been around for even a short while is way stronger than a new AAA-ranker. Later on, they would probably run out of useful spells to learn, and with how quickly they are learning that would come sooner than in the Vancian-lite setup.
My thought on it, with a focus on keeping it to MGLN canon authentic should be:
-You got your knowledge base. This is mainly theory, progressed through ranks in individual disciplines of magic. This determines what spells you can learn, though of course your Device can hold a spell beyond your ability.
--This can be used for rituals and whatnot that you only do once, and takes a lot of preparation
--Root of the tree is your magic basis(i.e. what shows up on your magic circle). Mid-childan, Belkan, Gallean, etc. Few people take more than one, theres just not the need.
--Then you have your specialization. This maps translates loosely to the Templates. Bombardment, Support, Knight, Technician, etc. Some specializations vary by the root. Belkan Knight is substantially better at tanking than Mid-Childan Knight.
--Then you have your skills. This goes to Aim, Energy Collection, Control, etc, the components for spells.
--You got your memorized combat spells. These are specific configurations of your knowledge and skills, and what you're confident enough to use in live combat. Or your Device saves one setup for you. Each spell has various skill prereqs and variant spells past the first get say...half slot cost.
Why do this? Well, we know for instance, while most people we've seen tend to only have one base Shooter, one base Buster, and sometimes one Breaker. They demonstrate variants on these spells AND the ability to stack variants, most people only use one variant at a time, unless they go through a training/powerup arc, then they tend to replace the whole thing( E.g. you see Base + Variant A + Variant B to become Base + Variant AB + Variant C, with A and B never used seperately again).
Mind you, this is me going full on simulationist and probably should factor in gameplay realities.
This would work I feel, though I think that the ceiling should be less the amount of things you can do and more how far you can take them. If the mage put all three their spells in say, long range fighting, they'd end up stronger at that than if they'd invested in three different doctrines.
So yeah, taking Maclibuin as an example again, a D-Rank when maxed out would get 6 spells total, a C-Rank 9, and from B-Rank onwards 12. The difference from B-Rank to A-Rank would be the amount of power you would be able to put out, AKA Buster and Breaker spells, and their melee/non-combat equivalents.
I'd also say that the further along the spell list you go, the costier it'd be to master each spell, with the end-tier abilities of an AAA being really hard to obtain.
That's more or less all I got. Probably a bunch of terrible ideas up there, but if you can salvage something from it I'm happy.
Not terrible ideas. I'm just trying to picture how it would work in practice.
Here are two "non-templated" variants of Taylor's spell set, so we can pretend she's AA+ at base (which gets her access to Breaker level spells).
This is Taylor gone pure shooty.
Flare Shooter
Homing Bullet
Burst
Multishot
Wide Area Search
Temporal Sludge
Solar Wrath
Ragnarök
Aerial Combat
Spatial Translocation
Dimensional Transfer
Guardian Beast
This is Taylor taking a more balanced approach as seen in this arc.
Flare Shooter
Homing Bullet
Multishot
Wide Area Search
Flare Blade
Blitz Action
Charge Cartridge
Ring Bind
Aerial Combat
Telekinesis
Spatial Translocation
Guardian Beast
Something like this?
My only concern is that if we do it this way, once you get to A+ rank they're going to start feeling restrained by how much they can do in theory vs how much they can grow in practice (which is clearly the biggest argument against my current setup, I guess ). But that's more of a quibble about the number of spell slots per rank than the overall system.
If Taylor is Reverse Fate, then PS is the Bardiche analog. Laura would need a Raising Heart analog. And, you know, if she does pure melee, I'd think you would want her to have Knight Armor, which is limited to Armed Devices.
On having standard device vs template... maybe have the devices have more flexibility in how the images use the magic and branch out from it?
Like how Nanoha developed Starlight Breaker as a variation of Divine Buster. If the mage has good enough understanding of the magic they can tinker with it to try to say, shore up weaknesses or try to get use out of it in a different way. This would require the mage to have a lot of mental flexibility and good grounding in math of course. And would eventually get a entirely new spell out of it.
This will obviously also take a lot of time. And I don't know how this can be represented in the quest mechanics.
Why do this? Well, we know for instance, while most people we've seen tend to only have one base Shooter, one base Buster, and sometimes one Breaker. They demonstrate variants on these spells AND the ability to stack variants, most people only use one variant at a time, unless they go through a training/powerup arc, then they tend to replace the whole thing( E.g. you see Base + Variant A + Variant B to become Base + Variant AB + Variant C, with A and B never used seperately again).
Mind you, this is me going full on simulationist and probably should factor in gameplay realities.
... Nah, you're right, it's more Hybrid Slow Vancian than anything else. Slightly faster usable speed with the cue cards system, I'd say a month/arc would be enough to get a spell into the card stage, and perhaps a "rote" stage where a spell becomes second nature, which is slower by a chunk, say three arcs, but allows the user to gather more functionality beyond the card system?
Also doable, but then once we get to the faster stage and number of slots, we still have the issue of managing that by a group when it's hard enough to do as once person.
So if we happened to find someone with a rare skill to get a DNA sample off of for Tim to refine.....
