Voting is open
[X] Keep it secret, keep it safe. You're already enough of a target, as a Revivalist state. You don't need more reason for Alexander to put a kill order on you.
-[X] Tricentennial reveal
 
[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.

This is the leading "do not declare war on Russia" pick so here we go.
 
Its in large part about Public Relations. Alex dislikes us but we havent shouted it into the world that we seek to reunite the nation yet. That means we are lower in the to-do list than some other threats closer to home. But if we shout that out and gain legitimacy and political weight to plausibly start building up to that state we wil rapidly go up in the to-do list. And I for one am not certain we can weather Russian *and* Japanese attention well for the two turns needed for California to start revolting.
From my PoV the issue is this:
Across the world, and extending the period during which the Commonwealth is on the front pages worldwide, governments welcome Commonwealth diplomats to their countries. Russia and Blackwell's Loyalists, of course, are lodging diplomatic protests far and wide, and your diplomats will need to work quickly, but the foothold is there.You have made first contact as widely as possible, keeping the Commonwealth in the papers, restoring priceless access to the worldwide information network, and giving you a diplomatic foothold in the wider world. Russia and Victoria, naturally, are protesting your presence vigorously, but if your diplomats double down and keep up the pressure, you may be able to swing formal recognition and embassy exchanges. One of two successes complete.
Russia is out there trying to prevent us getting diplomatic recognition.
Not like, there is a nation with two rival goverments and they're both disputing who is the legitimate government, but actively preventing a new nation getting heardis something they're investing diplomatic effort in.

No one is that blatant without basically being at war.

For some idea of how serious this is, the North Koreans, considered international pariahs, have diplomatic relations with 164 different nations.
And visa-free travel to much of South East Asia. The US had an embassay in Managua while they were supplying the Contras and mining the entry to Nicaraguan port cities back in the 80s during Reagans regime.

They are already trying to smother us. I can't see any substantive change to Russo-Commie relations that they aren't already trying.

The issue is Japan.
But Japan is in the middle of the Pacific with it's puppets.
So fuck them.
As I see it, this is the heart of the problem with announcing we have the Declaration this turn. People have advanced very good arguments for why we should tell everyone that we have the Declaration, and I agree with all of them. But people haven't given me a convincing argument for why we should do it more or less immediately. What does doing it now get us that doing it later doesn't?
And I want people to be specific. To be blunt, patriotic rhetoric is nice, but it doesn't actually mean very much.
Because publicly declaring it's presence gives it protection by notoriety.
The same amount of protection that WE got by allowing in foreign observers and journalists near the ending parts of the Spring War, which was all that prevented the Russian Air Force from showing up to arrange supply airdrops for the Vic army.

Imperial Russia has always preferred to work out of the limelight of public scrutiny.
Publicity forces them to factor in whether they are willing to eat the PR cost of overt action in the glare of global attention, when surveillance electronics are cheap and increasingly widespread. And increases the risk that all they'll do is manage to create martyrs and blowback.

Once it's presence is known, they gain nothing by destroying it.
And doing so, or even attempting and failing, might simply backfire and send us more support.

Meantime, attempting to keep it secret or quiet while trying to recruit expertise from FCNY simply increases incentive for Russian!Solid Snake to infiltrate, destroy it and simply claim that we were lying, or had a forgery.
Then it's our word vs theirs.

And the secondary reason is, if we draw attention, we pull it away from California in their last year of preptime.
Which increases their chances of success.
 
Last edited:
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
Adhoc vote count started by Thors_Alumni on Oct 10, 2019 at 5:42 AM, finished with 81 posts and 60 votes.
 
[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.
 
Last edited:
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.

[X] Keep it secret, keep it safe. You're already enough of a target, as a Revivalist state. You don't need more reason for Alexander to put a kill order on you.

The FCNY has to be one of the most spy-infested nations in the world. Revealing the DoI to them will not keep it secret whatsoever, and lose put from the bonuses of announcing it publicly.
 
Last edited:
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
[X] Gift the Declaration to the Free City of New York in secret; let them do as they please with it. Max out relations with the Free City of New York.
[X] Keep it secret, keep it safe. You're already enough of a target, as a Revivalist state. You don't need more reason for Alexander to put a kill order on you.
[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
Because publicly declaring it's presence gives it protection by notoriety.
The same amount of protection that WE got by allowing in foreign observers and journalists near the ending parts of the Spring War, which was all that prevented the Russian Air Force from showing up to arrange supply airdrops for the Vic army.

Imperial Russia has always preferred to work out of the limelight of public scrutiny.
Publicity forces them to factor in whether they are willing to eat the PR cost of overt action in the glare of global attention, when surveillance electronics are cheap and increasingly widespread. And increases the risk that all they'll do is manage to create martyrs and blowback.

Once it's presence is known, they gain nothing by destroying it.
And doing so, or even attempting and failing, might simply backfire and send us more support.

Meantime, attempting to keep it secret or quiet while trying to recruit expertise from FCNY simply increases incentive for Russian!Solid Snake to infiltrate, destroy it and simply claim that we were lying, or had a forgery.
I may be missing a post here, but did you ever address my point about how a leaked rumor of a Declaration that isn't on display* isn't going to draw nearly the same level of Russian effort as a concrete, specific sighting of the Declaration?

I mean, I'm all for "tell the fucking world," in my heart of hearts. But on the one hand, I don't think "lol New York can't keep a secret" is grounds to assume we'll get exactly the same Russian attention from revealing as from keeping it secret and them finding out... And on the other hand, bear in mind that the Russian hostility against us if we wave the Declaration around isn't limited to the Declaration itself. Alexander IV is not stupid. He's going to be much more interested in destroying us, as a nation-state, than he is in destroying a physical piece of paper. The Declaration itself may be quite safe- hell, Alexander might be willing to scoop it out of the rubble of our nation and take it to Moscow for safe keeping! But we are proclaiming hostility to Russia, and that will, yes, come with a price.
______________

*(and, for instance, can be moved after the last time a New Yorker sees it, unless they're a volunteer New Yorker who's staying in the Commonwealth, as an example of commonsense security precautions).
 
If we stumble in Turn 5, we have 1 turn to compensate.
And since Farming is DC30, putting in one point is 71%/pedant

We also have a maximum of 2 turns before shit pops off on the West Coast as California upturns the playing board in the biggest political shakeup of the last forty years. We are really going to want AP free and ready to take advantage of events, to stretch a hand out to help fleeing refugees from a potential warzone or to plug problems as they turn up, rather than be tied up trying to feed our own people.

To use an analogy, I'm asserting that we really should finish and turn in our college assignment early rather than chance waiting till the last minute.

Those other things are important too, don't get me wrong, but there's a reason access to food is explicitly written into the Constitution of the Commonwealth in this quest. People get touchy about food after decades of food insecurity.
Your own character's canon omakes explicitly characterizes it as one of the roots of the grudge between Toledo and Detroit.

And, no offence, but please dont accuse me of fearmongering.
It poisons the conversation, and implies you don't think the other debater is arguing in good faith.

The omake bonuses still apply, the new system is not yet implemented and still allows them anyways as already pointed out. So no, it isn't 71% /pedant.

Secondly, to turn your own analogy back on you. I'd rather we know what the assignment is, and make sure we have done our research before continuing to write half-cocked. I am voting for the point we need to finish it, and there is a world of difference between having enough food and a surplus. One is vital, the other is nice, but competes with other nice things.

As for your complaining about fearmongering, let me be clear. You claimed that DC would go up. This is untrue, for two reasons.
1) We know we have two turns, even missing it, this plan won't cause them to rise post turn 6. Holding one point leaves 3 rolls to finish the project before problems arise.
2) We have already been in this situation. It is identical to our place on turn 1. We got out of it. Turn 2 showed no decrease in DC's. We objectively know what our penalty for lack of food is. We have to buy from our neighbors wasting ap. Claiming DC's will rise, when we already know they didn't before, and our people know we will pay for food if needed does not add up with history. Notably, my omake about the Toledo Detroit tension notes that Detroit was fine, even with their harvest lost because they brought food, it was only after is was seized that they starved.

So like, I kinda feel the conversation was poisoned already. I felt rather annoyed that you are treating your plan as some anti-starvation and mine as a starvation plan when my advocacy still budgets 3 rolls before any problem arises, and we already know the penalty is forcing us to buy food, not massive DC increases. Our people didn't suddenly panic and increase DC when we were much less established, with no guarantees signed, give that they now exist, and we already have proven we will buy it one before, at any price, it is stilly to think we will now. I feel arguing about the advantages of surplus food is fair, but yeah, I feel claiming either plan seriously courts potential starvation feels pretty bad faith to me.
 
I'm... beginning to come around on this issue.

[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.

The omake bonuses still apply, the new system is not yet implemented and still allows them anyways as already pointed out. So no, it isn't 71% /pedant.
Ultimately, the reroll bonus IS a good argument for not doubling down on AP over our requirements, at least until it's expended. I didn't factor that into my own analysis.

As for your complaining about fearmongering, let me be clear. You claimed that DC would go up. This is untrue, for two reasons.
1) We know we have two turns, even missing it, this plan won't cause them to rise post turn 6. Holding one point leaves 3 rolls to finish the project before problems arise.
2) We have already been in this situation. It is identical to our place on turn 1. We got out of it. Turn 2 showed no decrease in DC's. We objectively know what our penalty for lack of food is. We have to buy from our neighbors wasting ap. Claiming DC's will rise, when we already know they didn't before, and our people know we will pay for food if needed does not add up with history. Notably, my omake about the Toledo Detroit tension notes that Detroit was fine, even with their harvest lost because they brought food, it was only after is was seized that they starved.

So like, I kinda feel the conversation was poisoned already. I felt rather annoyed that you are treating your plan as some anti-starvation and mine as a starvation plan when my advocacy still budgets 3 rolls before any problem arises, and we already know the penalty is forcing us to buy food, not massive DC increases. Our people didn't suddenly panic and increase DC when we were much less established, with no guarantees signed, give that they now exist, and we already have proven we will buy it one before, at any price, it is stilly to think we will now. I feel arguing about the advantages of surplus food is fair, but yeah, I feel claiming either plan seriously courts potential starvation feels pretty bad faith to me.
@uju32 sometimes gets a bit... imaginative... when presenting possible consequences of not following his advice.

I accept on a basic level that putting 1 AP on Farming Equipment next turn will not lead to starvation.

Note that in my book, there's a complication insofar as there may not be food available on Turns 6 and later. There is no guarantee of a good harvest in any given year, and the number of people we're trying to feed may well increase further compared to our last shortage year. My main concern about relying on imports to make up for famine situations is that they don't make adequate allowances for cases of region-wide poor agricultural years, cases where "a falling meteor shower sinks all boats," so to speak.
 
Last edited:
Tough call, here. I feel delaying the reveal a little bit to coincide with NCR independence or tricentennial is probably worth the wait

However, don't inform NCR yet: they may be compromised all over the place

[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.
 
I may be missing a post here, but did you ever address my point about how a leaked rumor of a Declaration that isn't on display* isn't going to draw nearly the same level of Russian effort as a concrete, specific sighting of the Declaration?

I mean, I'm all for "tell the fucking world," in my heart of hearts. But on the one hand, I don't think "lol New York can't keep a secret" is grounds to assume we'll get exactly the same Russian attention from revealing as from keeping it secret and them finding out... And on the other hand, bear in mind that the Russian hostility against us if we wave the Declaration around isn't limited to the Declaration itself. Alexander IV is not stupid. He's going to be much more interested in destroying us, as a nation-state, than he is in destroying a physical piece of paper. The Declaration itself may be quite safe- hell, Alexander might be willing to scoop it out of the rubble of our nation and take it to Moscow for safe keeping! But we are proclaiming hostility to Russia, and that will, yes, come with a price.
______________

*(and, for instance, can be moved after the last time a New Yorker sees it, unless they're a volunteer New Yorker who's staying in the Commonwealth, as an example of commonsense security precautions).
its cheap to send a James Bond to go check things out and cause so!e sabotage. It is likely he is already on his way anyway in case Victoria ducks things up had enough. Better the asset already be in place if he needs it there than for Blackwell to choke and suddenly there is nothing left to oppose us. Diverting that asset to burn the declaration won't be too much effort since he is already in the region anyway.

If we keep it secret and the agent burns it its our word vs theirs. If we wave it around and then it explodes, everyone is going to glare daggers at Russia for an act of 'pointless cruelty and destruction'. He will have to run around putting out fires and molify people that he isn't going to come after their old carp next.

Assuming he hasn't already dispatched an agent is a dangerous assumption.
 
@uju32 sometimes gets a bit... imaginative... when presenting possible consequences of not following his advice.

I accept on a basic level that putting 1 AP on Farming Equipment next turn will not lead to starvation.

Note that in my book, there's a complication insofar as there may not be food available on Turns 6 and later. There is no guarantee of a good harvest in any given year, and the number of people we're trying to feed may well increase further compared to our last shortage year. My main concern about relying on imports to make up for famine situations is that they don't make adequate allowances for cases of region-wide poor agricultural years, cases where "a falling meteor shower sinks all boats," so to speak.

This is a more fair point,and one I'm willing to acknowledge this as something to consider. I did somewhat lose my temper over the "follow my plan or die" style arguing. I don't think that extra agriculture is vital, but yes it is ultimately a good thing and if we aren't swamped, not bad to go for. Though I would really like to start forging the sword since I'm worried the lessons will fade if we take to long on it.

Also, so we are making informed decisions.

@PoptartProdigy will Midwest Industrial Conference lower the dc of the current Infrastructure Project action available to us.?
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.

For what my vote is worth.
 
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.

Fuck the cowards - I'm an American and I'm proud of it, and the idea of hiding away the Declaration of Independence due being afraid of foreigners retaliating makes me sick.
 
Fuck the cowards - I'm an American and I'm proud of it, and the idea of hiding away the Declaration of Independence due being afraid of foreigners retaliating makes me sick.

Honorable suicide is the real cowardly way out. The true braves pragmatically retreat because they aren't afraid of their pride getting hurt if it means success down the line. And that's what the relentless succession of votes to always take the most antagonist option towards Russia is. Elaborate suicide.

Previous updates make it very clear we're only alive because we're insignificant. This isn't like fighting Victoria for Detroit. It has no time limit. Keeping it secret now doesn't mean we can't reveal it later. We need to bide our time and let the situation settle or we'll just end up convincing Russia it has to give more help to its failing puppet to shut us down before it's too late.
 
[X] Keep it a secret publicly, but pass some quiet words through your representatives in the Free City of New York that you have what you believe to be the Declaration, and would appreciate their confirmation. Massive opinion boost with the Free City of New York, +2 Legitimacy as they automatically recognize you.
 
Last edited:
[X] Make it known to the world that you possess the Declaration of Independence, and invite the Free City of New York to Chicago to examine and confirm the authenticity of the document, as well as discussion possible restoration efforts. +8 Legitimacy, massive opinion boost with FCNY, large opinion boost with most polities within the former borders of the United States, negative attention from Japan, Russia, and Russian client states.

Fuck the cowards - I'm an American and I'm proud of it, and the idea of hiding away the Declaration of Independence due being afraid of foreigners retaliating makes me sick.
Tell me, how did Leeroy Jenkins'ing into unwinnable situations because "we aren't cowards" work out for America so far?
 
Honorable suicide is the real cowardly way out. The true braves pragmatically retreat because they aren't afraid of their pride getting hurt if it means success down the line. And that's what the relentless succession of votes to always take the most antagonist option towards Russia is. Elaborate suicide.

Previous updates make it very clear we're only alive because we're insignificant. This isn't like fighting Victoria for Detroit. It has no time limit. Keeping it secret now doesn't mean we can't reveal it later. We need to bide our time and let the situation settle or we'll just end up convincing Russia it has to give more help to its failing puppet to shut us down before it's too late.
This is part of why I'm wanting California and New York to be in on the reveal -- it'll let them pick actions that'd benefit from the reveal, as well as diffusing Russia's attention across more of the US. That, and it making the reveal much more of a Pan-American one, rather than the Commonwealth specifically.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top