The nobles collectively were interesting and fun to read about, but all I will ever remember when it comes to them as a group is that discussion between crx, gan, and ling qi that ended with the realization that noone would ever truly respect them until the trio's feet were trampling on their heads.
Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
[X] Sincerity
[X] Secrets
[X] Mischief
[X][Role] Social Offense
I feel like this is well set up for charming single targets, which seems much more plausible than another performer/audience role. It also lets us push back and humiliate (via secrets and mischief) arrogant nobles who try and play games with us. Feels very moon-style.
[X] Secrets
[X] Mischief
[X][Role] Social Offense
I feel like this is well set up for charming single targets, which seems much more plausible than another performer/audience role. It also lets us push back and humiliate (via secrets and mischief) arrogant nobles who try and play games with us. Feels very moon-style.
- Location
- ?
[X] Spirits
[X] Connections
[X] Mischief
[X] [Role] Social Defense/Offense
[X] Connections
[X] Mischief
[X] [Role] Social Defense/Offense
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- Location
- California
After some thought, I am increasingly disliking Mystery due to its interaction with Sincerity. Mystery relies on hiding one's cards and keeping opponents in the dark when dealing with them. It's hard to say that this is in tune with the themes expressed by Sincerity. Can you say that you're being fully sincere when you actively try to minimize the amount of knowledge your opponents have?
There will always be situations where Ling Qi will have to hide information from her opponents. For Ling Qi to be sincere in her dealings, however, it would generally be preferable for her to expose more information about her beliefs, her worries, etc. as long as it's not necessarily harmful for her position. This exposure, in the average scenario, makes Ling Qi less mysterious. Actively trying to make Ling Qi more mysterious in spite of this brings her sincerity into question.
In my opinion, Secrets as a keyword is preferable. Everyone has secrets, and it would be unreasonable to expect even the most sincere person to expose them unnecessarily. Explicitly keeping secrets is far more in tune with Sincerity than not exposing whether you have secrets in the first place. Would this potentially make it easier for Ling Qi's enemies to ferret out more information about Ling Qi than we want them to? Perhaps, but that's the price we have to pay if we want to properly develop Ling Qi's sincerity as a facet of her character.
There will always be situations where Ling Qi will have to hide information from her opponents. For Ling Qi to be sincere in her dealings, however, it would generally be preferable for her to expose more information about her beliefs, her worries, etc. as long as it's not necessarily harmful for her position. This exposure, in the average scenario, makes Ling Qi less mysterious. Actively trying to make Ling Qi more mysterious in spite of this brings her sincerity into question.
In my opinion, Secrets as a keyword is preferable. Everyone has secrets, and it would be unreasonable to expect even the most sincere person to expose them unnecessarily. Explicitly keeping secrets is far more in tune with Sincerity than not exposing whether you have secrets in the first place. Would this potentially make it easier for Ling Qi's enemies to ferret out more information about Ling Qi than we want them to? Perhaps, but that's the price we have to pay if we want to properly develop Ling Qi's sincerity as a facet of her character.
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[X] Wind
[X] Moon
[X] Sincerity
[X] [Role] Social
[X] Moon
[X] Sincerity
[X] [Role] Social
Yes, you totally can.
Being sincere means when you make a connection you mean it, but the counterpoint of that is when you don't WANT a connection you must be able to conceal your intentions, lest your sincerity be turned against you. Speak true or say nothing.
[X] Sincerity
[X] Mystery
[X] Spirits
[X][Role] Social Offense/Defense
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- Location
- earth
Third time the charm
- Location
- US
[X] Secrets
[X] Dreams
[X] Lullaby
[X][Role] Social Defense
[X] Dreams
[X] Lullaby
[X][Role] Social Defense
- Location
- California
I suppose you can interpret the keywords that way, but I'd prefer for Ling Qi to be sincere as often as possible, not sincere in some situations and mysterious in others. I'm not sure if it's likely for the arts to be designed that way even if you want a clear separation.
Regardless, there are many ways to prevent a connection from forming other than concealing your intentions, the most obvious of which is explicitly showing your intention of not wanting to make a connection. This might make enemies for Ling Qi, but I'd personally be fine with that in most situations. As Sixiang said in a recent chapter:
Anyway, tactical voting time:
[X] Wind
[X] Expression
[X] Spirits
[X][Role] Social Offense
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Given that we're getting access to at least one CDE successor art, I encourage people to switch out of generic [Role][Social] votes.
CDE helps us with social perception. Presumably a successor art we pick up will continue in that vein. So we don't want too much redundancy in the rest of our archive dive; a generic "social" art that spends some energy on everything is less useful to us than either a focused social defense art, focused social offense art, or mixed offense/defense art.
@yrsillar, if you're still around: normal thread rule is for approval voting, cast as many votes as you want. However, you did specify "up to three" for the keyword part of the vote, so it's ambiguous whether or not approval voting rules are still in play for the Role vote, or if people can only vote for one.
CDE helps us with social perception. Presumably a successor art we pick up will continue in that vein. So we don't want too much redundancy in the rest of our archive dive; a generic "social" art that spends some energy on everything is less useful to us than either a focused social defense art, focused social offense art, or mixed offense/defense art.
@yrsillar, if you're still around: normal thread rule is for approval voting, cast as many votes as you want. However, you did specify "up to three" for the keyword part of the vote, so it's ambiguous whether or not approval voting rules are still in play for the Role vote, or if people can only vote for one.
- Location
- Staring into the void
[X]Wind
[X]Motion
[X]Connection
[X][Role] Squad Travel
[X]Motion
[X]Connection
[X][Role] Squad Travel
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Hmmm interesting
So I went back to Forge to check out the count clan descriptions (Week 49-50 part 2) to compare definitions with today's update. Very enlightening to learn
Now for another clan, the Bao, who I really thought was full on Imperial until this update
The Luo on the other hand, while almost 50-50, leans on the Weilu Moderates side
Now let's talk about the Meng, that one count clan we hate
Now for the Diao, who we have yet to meet aside from Linqin who we didn't talk with at all
I also kinda noticed that they are aligned with the Jia and just the Jia in their description, and not the Wang, despite earlier description of them being grouped together. Aka this is a sign that Jia's disposition might differ slightly from Wang's. It's especially interesting that of all the Count clan scions, the Diao and Jia are the one's we have yet to see.
So I went back to Forge to check out the count clan descriptions (Week 49-50 part 2) to compare definitions with today's update. Very enlightening to learn
To compare, according to this, Imperial Conservatives are said to favor centralization and aggressive expansion, and which Count clan does that matches its description with?
the Wang and Jia clan; well we haven't met a Jia to know for sure, but definitely the Wang. Someone who pushes for invading the Cloud Tribes. This kinda gives signals that Wang Chao is probably in a similar disposition as Wu Jing towards Ling Qi in that they don't like how she does things. They're not necessarily against or hate her, but they're definitely biased about how isolated she tends to be. Kinda speaks that we might not get along with Wang Chao as some people here might plan.
Now for another clan, the Bao, who I really thought was full on Imperial until this update
Even says right there that they're imperial conservatives, not to mention they're location borders Celestial Peaks, so I really thought they'd be conservatives, until it turns out they're aggressive expansionists. In other words
The Baos are more moderates when it comes to imperialism. They definitely defer to the throne, but they would be against expansionist since it opposes their trading interests. It also matches description on how neutral they are at court as well as matters of culture.
The Luo on the other hand, while almost 50-50, leans on the Weilu Moderates side
Even says right there that they're "Nominal" Weilu conservatives. Cautious expansion really speaks on how Luo Zhong approaches the topic in general, since he opposes Wang's aggressiveness
Kinda interesting how he keeps Wu Jing around as a contrarian
Now let's talk about the Meng, that one count clan we hate
Hmmm, this description seem to match the description of Old Tribes until one considers how they formerly had ties with Bai and currently backs Sun. Aka they do not match any of the description presented so far so I'm gonna dub their political position as "Weilu Conservatives" compared to the Luo's position.
Now for the Diao, who we have yet to meet aside from Linqin who we didn't talk with at all
Their position is interesting as well. They have expansionist interest, yet they clash with conservatives (vague on which one, probably the isolationists I guess). Seeing as they are the Cai's greatest supporters, they most probably fit the description of deferring to provincial authority rather than imperial.
I also kinda noticed that they are aligned with the Jia and just the Jia in their description, and not the Wang, despite earlier description of them being grouped together. Aka this is a sign that Jia's disposition might differ slightly from Wang's. It's especially interesting that of all the Count clan scions, the Diao and Jia are the one's we have yet to see.
Any chance for other successors? I would love HDW to have one if it exists.
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Anyways, based on comparison of descriptions and the possible political positions of each different Count clans, i think I'm gonna lean on supporting the Moderates, while trying to get along with the conservatives as much as we can (except the Meng because fuck 'em)
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Yeah, the Weilu Moderates are our natural allies long term policywise, while we can likely maintain neutral or maybe even better relations with the Imperial Moderates in the long run, but TBH the hardliners on each side are likely going to be headaches for us, even if we might be fine with certain parts of their mandate.
But that's the truth pretty much anywhere in life you go.
But that's the truth pretty much anywhere in life you go.
- Location
- United States of America
So, I'm going to talk about the scene in the latest update which intrigued me the most. And that is the conversation with Wu Jing.
The moment Wu Jing started talking about how Ling Qi doesn't see some other members of the party as peers, he stepped on a potential landmine of how Ling Qi was treated by scions of the Emerald Seas nobility in the outer sect. She was scorned, ridiculed, and dismissed. Even when she became, officially, a member of the nobility nobody invited her to parties, nobody tried to introduce her to other peerage members, and nobody tried to integrate her into the peerage. She only began to attend parties when she became the retainer of Renxiang. Ling Qi, for the majority of her career as a noble, has been treated as an outsider intruding into the nobility.
You don't plant an apple tree and expect a peach tree to sprout, and the actions of the Emerald Sea's nobility as a whole have led to a situation where expecting Ling Qi to have a desire to see the peerage as peers is just as bizarre. Furthermore, Wu Jing's approach of talking about the peerage to Ling Qi opened him up to some brutal lines of discourse.
A person with sufficient knowledge of Wu Jing's position on Imperial culture and with a sharp enough wit could then transition the discourse of a commoner entering the peerage into the hypocrisy of Imperial Culture in regards to commoners. If it is a sacred and honorable duty to protect, nurture, and direct commoners then why are commoners held in contempt when the results of said protection, nurturing, and direction lead to some of them being able to assume some of the noble burdens and become immortals? Should such individuals not be celebrated as proof of cultivators ability to protect and nurture mortals to the degree that some become immortals?
By taking these tracks of discourse, Ling Qi could have directed him into a corner where he had to defend how the Emerald Sea nobility treated Ling Qi and the way Imperial Culture treats commoners becoming cultivators to Ling Qi, or try to disengage as gracefully as possible. This course would have won us no favors with him and his clique, but it could have hurt his reputation and directed individuals who don't like him towards us.
Ling Qi had the information needed to make these connections and take this route, but she certainly doesn't have the skill to actually do it at the moment, or at least not well. Wu Jing could have gone for a safer tactic and discussed how Ling Qi treating this party as if there was something treacherous/insidious when she was invited in good faith, and how disappointing it is to see a retainer of the Cai treating the peerage as if they were waiting to backstab her.
Honestly, I feel that it is good that someone breached these topics to Ling Qi, and that someone wasn't a social juggernaut. It will give Ling Qi some experience dealing with more antagonistical members of the nobility.
While I don't think he was wrong, I don't think he is nearly as good at this verbal sparring thing as he thinks he is and if he was actually talking with someone who had more experience and skill (coughXiulancough) he might have been torn apart.
The moment Wu Jing started talking about how Ling Qi doesn't see some other members of the party as peers, he stepped on a potential landmine of how Ling Qi was treated by scions of the Emerald Seas nobility in the outer sect. She was scorned, ridiculed, and dismissed. Even when she became, officially, a member of the nobility nobody invited her to parties, nobody tried to introduce her to other peerage members, and nobody tried to integrate her into the peerage. She only began to attend parties when she became the retainer of Renxiang. Ling Qi, for the majority of her career as a noble, has been treated as an outsider intruding into the nobility.
You don't plant an apple tree and expect a peach tree to sprout, and the actions of the Emerald Sea's nobility as a whole have led to a situation where expecting Ling Qi to have a desire to see the peerage as peers is just as bizarre. Furthermore, Wu Jing's approach of talking about the peerage to Ling Qi opened him up to some brutal lines of discourse.
A person with sufficient knowledge of Wu Jing's position on Imperial culture and with a sharp enough wit could then transition the discourse of a commoner entering the peerage into the hypocrisy of Imperial Culture in regards to commoners. If it is a sacred and honorable duty to protect, nurture, and direct commoners then why are commoners held in contempt when the results of said protection, nurturing, and direction lead to some of them being able to assume some of the noble burdens and become immortals? Should such individuals not be celebrated as proof of cultivators ability to protect and nurture mortals to the degree that some become immortals?
By taking these tracks of discourse, Ling Qi could have directed him into a corner where he had to defend how the Emerald Sea nobility treated Ling Qi and the way Imperial Culture treats commoners becoming cultivators to Ling Qi, or try to disengage as gracefully as possible. This course would have won us no favors with him and his clique, but it could have hurt his reputation and directed individuals who don't like him towards us.
Ling Qi had the information needed to make these connections and take this route, but she certainly doesn't have the skill to actually do it at the moment, or at least not well. Wu Jing could have gone for a safer tactic and discussed how Ling Qi treating this party as if there was something treacherous/insidious when she was invited in good faith, and how disappointing it is to see a retainer of the Cai treating the peerage as if they were waiting to backstab her.
Honestly, I feel that it is good that someone breached these topics to Ling Qi, and that someone wasn't a social juggernaut. It will give Ling Qi some experience dealing with more antagonistical members of the nobility.
Kai Merah
Hound Hearted Hedonist
- Location
- Somewhere in the corners of my imagination
[X] Sincerity
[x] Mischief
[x] Connections
[x][Role] Social Offence
The best defence is a good offence. The best offence is a good offence too. And while spirits is an interesting keyword, I think we're actually fine on the spirit social front, and I think Connections levers our current strengths better in terms of doing well at social.
[x] Mischief
[x] Connections
[x][Role] Social Offence
The best defence is a good offence. The best offence is a good offence too. And while spirits is an interesting keyword, I think we're actually fine on the spirit social front, and I think Connections levers our current strengths better in terms of doing well at social.
TimEd
Meteor maker
her
ha! Mom- I mean, Big Sister Ling Qi gusing about her turtlesnek.
Alright, I want to argue argue for Expression.
The themes of expression, as shown through our music lessons and how magic music is about direct communication of feelings and ideas through the soul, have great synergy with social.
I still have hope for a vocals/speech advanced skill for a magical voice. Dance similarly has clear synergy for things like body language and poise. I think trying to pursue this kind of build integration would be hugely valuable.
People have expressed some concern about a music based social art having practical difficulties based off HDW. This is, perhaps, a reason for not going all in on "music" specifically (though I'd argue that such concerns kinda have to be taken into account in art design anyway, and would probably be manageable). "expression" though should have plenty of flexibility and I think expresses well the idea looking for something that works with those themes and ideas - while not necessarily being literally music.
[x] Expression
[x] Sincerity
[x] Spirits
[x][Role] Social
The themes of expression, as shown through our music lessons and how magic music is about direct communication of feelings and ideas through the soul, have great synergy with social.
I still have hope for a vocals/speech advanced skill for a magical voice. Dance similarly has clear synergy for things like body language and poise. I think trying to pursue this kind of build integration would be hugely valuable.
People have expressed some concern about a music based social art having practical difficulties based off HDW. This is, perhaps, a reason for not going all in on "music" specifically (though I'd argue that such concerns kinda have to be taken into account in art design anyway, and would probably be manageable). "expression" though should have plenty of flexibility and I think expresses well the idea looking for something that works with those themes and ideas - while not necessarily being literally music.
[x] Expression
[x] Sincerity
[x] Spirits
[x][Role] Social
