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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Worros said:
I am very new to this thread having arrived via RR recently and not looked at the community or voting catching up - so I have "fiction bias" here.

What are we actually voting here? My assumption is that the author will soon include a realisation and sub-arc where Ling Qi will realise that she must do for her little siblings what Baizhen, Jian etc did for her when her - give them an actual education required to function in the human/immortal society, and guide them to finding their Dao (Obvious Mother bonding and insights)

I expect a) Ling Qi to bargain Hanyis disciplinary path on the result of this challenge. b) Hanyi to lose in all cases.

So - My biases say that we are voting for how she gets Hanyi through this emergency, and guide her through what her challenge means, and what she needs to do actually compete sucessfully in a challenge - Not how we want Hanyi to grow.

Thus I want Hanyi to gain some confisdence and not get trounced. My choice was Presence as that is her highest Social attribute, and the only one that Hanyi doesn't get squashed. Getting trounced spectacularly by allowing her to attempt Composure vs a worthy opponent is also a viable life lesson.

Looking at the comments I have nfi what the Social art compoonent of the vote indicates
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Thats uh, not at all whats going on here.
Take note that Hanyi isn't actually at fault here. She's being bratty, but look:

yrsillar said:
"I lost my temper," Yu Nuan replied defensively. "But that little… your spirit has been bugging me all month, interrupting my practice and trying to challenge me, and when she scared off the spirit I was trying to bind..."

Left unsaid was what Ling Qi read between the lines. Yu Nuan had assumed Ling Qi was trying to mess with her, and was now preparing herself for the consequences of rising to the bait. Ling QI shot a frown at Hanyi, who huffed.

"Like that's a good excuse for attacking me like a big jerk. You knocked me off a cliff!"

Yu Nuan's pierced eyebrow twitched violently. "We're all third realm here," she growled. "Don't pretend you're made of glass." She crossed her arms and looked defiantly at Ling Qi. "I'm not gonna apologize."

Ling Qi frowned, she had her suspicions but… "Hanyi, why have you been following her around and challenging her?"

The young spirit looked briefly furtive, but a hard look from Ling Qi made her darting eyes still. "...I wanted to beat her, everyone says Big Sister crushed her so easily, so I thought I should be able to win too." She scuffed her foot in the dirt. "I kept losing."

There was another violent eye twitch from Yu Nuan, Ling Qi felt bad for the other girl. On the other hand, Hanyi had actually caused the both of them some trouble. If, or rather when it got around that Ling Qi had allowed one of her spirits to get attacked by a lower ranked disciple it would give her detractors even more ammunition if she didn't do anything about it. Ling Qi rubbed her forehead in frustration before she caught herself.

Straightening up, she looked the other girl in the eye, and measured her wary stance. "I will need an apology," she said, causing the other girls shoulders to stiffen. "However, Hanyi you need to stop…"

"No!" Hanyi replied stubbornly, stamping her foot. "I'm gonna beat her. She's a cheater, and she made fun of Momma's song."

"I said you're bad at it you little snot," Yu Nuan shot back. "If you're just copying someone else, of course you're bad."
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Yu Nuan is out in the wilderness trying to attract a spirit to bind.
Hanyi looked for someone she could challenge, and in perfect child logic, went for someone Ling Qi already beat, because that means she's weak.
From the exchange Yu Nuan clearly took her up on her challenge(because what we learned of her was that she likely wouldn't refuse a challenge from someone weaker), otherwise Yu Nuan wouldn't be able to critique Hanyi's singing.

Yu Nuan then told Hanyi she was bad at the song. Because Yu Nuan's gauge of what makes a GOOD song is how heartfelt and passionate the song is, and Hanyi was singing it by rote.
Hanyi of course, in classic child logic(again) interpreted that as Yu Nuan dissing her mother's song. So she started challenging Yu Nuan every day because she wanted to prove that her mother's song was good.

Yu Nuan meanwhile was trying to lure an elusive spirit in to bind and Hanyi's singing is scaring them off. So she got mad and yeeted Hanyi into a pond since she assumed Ling Qi send Hanyi to bug her. She didn't consider the possibility that Ling Qi just lets her spirits run around on their own because nobody(except Bai Meizhen) does that!

At no point did Hanyi tell Yu Nuan why she was doing it, nor did Yu Nuan tell Hanyi why she was annoyed.
Ling Qi did not consider Hanyi in the wrong, or she wouldn't be demanding an apology from Yu Nuan instead of Hanyi.
In terms of finding fault, Yu Nuan is at fault for the equivalent of shoving the annoying noisy kid at the park into the fountain.

The moral of the story isn't "Hanyi is a bad girl and needs to be taught better".
The moral of the story is "Poor Communication Kills", as the Music Element is about Communication.

What we're voting on is whether Hanyi should take her own path in cultivation, or emulate one of her role models.
 
I mean
veekie said:
[] A quiet and melancholic piece (Defensive, Yin, Composure)

Imitation of Ling Qi, even as Ling Qi is moving slowly away from that herself.
Hanyi is not the most restrained child, but she has shown to be capable of that when theres incentive to do so. Hard to peg on growth since its very similar to standard Yukionna.
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I have to disagree with this on the basis of
yrsillar said:
Social

Presence: D (35/40)
Manipulation: B (33/60)
Composure: D (3/40)
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Ling Qi's more Manipulative than Composed.
 
veekie said:
The moral of the story isn't "Hanyi is a bad girl and needs to be taught better".
The moral of the story is "Poor Communication Kills", as the Music Element is about Communication.

What we're voting on is whether Hanyi should take her own path in cultivation, or emulate one of her role models.
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My pov is that the moral of the story is that LQ hadn't fulfilled her obligations to her teacher in guiding and protecting Hanyi. She needs help her to not only find her own path, but provide the education and discipline to Hanyi to interact with Immortal society.

LQ has been putting off dealing with the topic of her teachers death, educting Hanyi in the same basic social interactions as she herself is learning, and ignoring the increasing frequency of Hanyi's brattinress following her complaints at not being able to help big sister because she is weak or not atrong enough.

Of all the characters - how many have allowed their spirit beasts to interact with other cultivators without public rebuke? LQ is still stuck on allowing her childrewn to have fun - as a sister not as senior.

Communication Kills - but that is LQ's insight, not Hanyi. "Ignorance of the law is not an excuse" .

So alternate phrasing of the same question. Are we voting on LQ's opinion of how Hanyi needs to develop her Dao while also composing her first original composition? or how an original composition must be composed on any path?
 
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veekie said:
What we're voting on is whether Hanyi should take her own path in cultivation, or emulate one of her role models.
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I also have to disagree with this one. It makes it seem like Presence is the more valid vote than the other, when it really isn't. One could argue that the melancholic piece lets her mourn more for her mother. Another could argue that she could improve her manipulation through the second option.

The way I see it, all three of the votes lets her take on her own path in cultivation. No matter what, Hanyi is Hanyi while Zeqing is Zeqing. Both of them have different experience and the former will eventually develop them, no matter how much emulating Hanyi may do. Besides
the type of song your composing will effect the conversation in the next update yeah
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Another purpose of the vote is to determine the tone of the following conversation. As this is the arc that helps Hanyi grow.
 
I have finally put my finger on what's irking me about the discussion over the vote. People are typecasting the different options as This One Thing while ignoring the variety held in each, in ways that are frankly unsound. Especially in relation to "What is Hanyi?" and "What was Zeqing?", people are going so far as to claim that some options are playing copycat, which is a pretty bold claim. So I'll go through them briefly.

[] A bombastic and overbearing piece (Damaging, Yang, Presence)
Zeqing is: Bombastic? No, she wasn't one for talk she couldn't walk. Overbearing? Absolutely, she wasn't shy of domineering behaviour, and her Way involved imposing the eternal peace of frigid Endings on others. Damaging? Yes, FSS is a vicious art when it wants to be, and her capabilities far outstripped that child's emulation. Yang? As far as I can tell, not an ounce. Presence? She definitely had Presence out the ass, and I'd argue it was her primary social attribute.
Hanyi is: Bombastic? Sure, she's a kid, they're generally known for bragging they can't back up. Overbearing? She's entitled and demanding, but tends to lack the dedication to do more than whine when she doesn't get her way. Damaging? She's got FPS (Frozen Peak Serenade), but she's still a baby. Yang? No, her base nature and both her "arts" lean strongly Yin, though less so than her mother. Presence? It's her highest attribute.
Ling Qi is: Bombastic and overbearing? Not really, but she is stubborn and bullheaded. Damaging? Sure, she does alright. Yang? Mostly no, she leans away from Yang, and the Yang she does practice is predominately defensive. Presence? It's getting there.

[] A beautiful and alluring piece (Control, Balanced, Manipulation)
Zeqing is: Beautiful and alluring? Yes, it's part of her portfolio as a Winter Muse of Endings. Control? Yep, she had that. Balanced? Nope, still Yin. Manipulation? Yes, she had an appreciation for playing on the desires and fears of prey and was a mature and capable spirit.
Hanyi is: Beautiful and alluring? Yes, obviously you dummy, she's super adorable and everyone wants her as a little sister! Control? Yes, she's got a whole spirit art for it which she's used in real combat. Balanced? No, she leans to Yin. Manipulation? No, currently she's not great at it.
Ling Qi is: Beautiful and alluring? She doesn't think so :)p) or practice arts in that vein. Control? Yep, been a priority of ours and she sometimes even makes use of the relevant arts. Balanced? She practices a Balanced cultivation art, has cultivated multiple Balanced arts, and currently has a relatively close Yin/Yang balance in her arts, so arguably yes. Manipulation? Yes, one of her best attributes.

[] A quiet and melancholic piece (Defensive, Yin, Composure)
Zeqing is: Quiet and melancholic? Yes, part of her portfolio as a Lonely Winter Maiden. Defensive? Uhhh, not that we ever saw any indication of whatsoever, no. Yin? Yes, Yin as fuck. Composure? A bit unclear in that she was typically stoic and impassive which may have been due to simple lack of relevant emotional capacity, but at the same time she barely drooled over delicious children she loved even while persistently mutilating her own Way so... probably substantial.
Hanyi is: Quiet and melancholic? She is at times, one example being the distance she puts up between herself and for example Biyu, and it's worth remembering we don't actually see how she spends her time when she's off by herself, or the moods she maintains. Defensive? No, currently nadda. Yin? Yes, she's predominately Yin. Composure? Yes, she's got decent Composure, but like her mother seems to feel little need to disguise her mood most of the time.
Ling Qi is: Quiet and melancholic? Yes, sometimes. Defensive? Yes, super defensive. Yin? Yes, her specialty and leaning. Composure? Uh, she tries.


So look, this post is a big mess, but my point is I don't think it's fair to say that a) any of the options are a large departure from Hanyi's current character/nature, b) any of the options are no departure from Hanyi's current character/nature, and c) any of the options is, more than any other, simply aping another character. Each option is multi-faceted, and most likely deliberately so on @yrsillar's part. They all possess contradictions relative the supposed rolemodels too. A quiet and melancholic Defensive, Yin, and Composure song doesn't fit either Zeqing or Ling Qi; Zeqing doesn't do Defensive, and the Composure aspect of Ling Qi's arts are... quite narratively subdued. None of these are a perfect fit for anyone, and they shouldn't be, not in the way being suggested.

veekie said:
What we're voting on is whether Hanyi should take her own path in cultivation, or emulate one of her role models.
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I vehemently disagree.
 
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Think I should add a bit to the cultivation planning info going:
  • Our immediate priorities for new arts are:
    • ENM or something ENM-like to make combat stealth viable and patch our glaring lack of Fade.
    • A "proper" social foundation art; HDW is nice but it's only covering perception and at cap a social privacy screen when we also want some form of speech/manip enhancement and ideally something to assist with Spirit Ken as well.
    • At a lower priority, getting CDE+ to at least look at since it'll be our central perception art.
  • To equip our shiny new arts we will need a lot of newly opened meridians:
    • SNR: 3(4 lv5) spine, 1(2 lv3) heart
      BKSD: 2 lung, 2 heart
      UGM: 2 arm, 2 spine
      ENM: 2 arm, 2 leg(3 lv5)
      PLR7: 1 leg
      SES5: 1 spine
    • Currently free: 5 arm, 1 heart, 1 lung, 2 leg
    • Total needed to open for minimum viable build (UGM2, BKSD2, SNR2, ENM3-4):
      1 lung, 2 heart, 5 spine
    • If we want to get SNR to Green 3 levels (aka lv3-5) we'll need another 1 heart and (at lv5) 1 spine, but it means we can drop TRF which means:
      1 lung, 1 heart, 3-4 spine (drop TRF)
  • In addition, a new social art is something we'd want equipped sooner rather than later, and if it doesn't replace HDW perfectly that means another few meridians to get started.
That's for arts, and even besides the meridians just training them all to green 3 level will take us many months. Now, cultivation progress goals are even more demanding:
  • To stay on track for green 5 by tournament we will want to hit Green 4 on turn 9, this will require ~3AP from drugs (reasonable).
  • After that, to hit Bronze 4 turn 11ish we'll need ~5AP from drugs (harder but still reasonable).
  • And finally to get Green/Bronze 5 on turn 16 (leaving us with 2 turns to get arts to Green 5 level proper), we will need an extra 10AP phys and 7AP spirit from drugs over turns 11~16, which will require a small miracle with the pills gacha or pretty substantial speed gains from SSC.
To help with both our art and cultivation goals, the ideal situation we're looking for is something like this cycle:
  • Every few turns we pick up some Arts->Base conversion drugs
  • Then do a turn focused primarily or completely on arts, which will:
    • Gain effective art AP (to lighten the art crunch and be spend on more jobs for drugs, equipment)
    • Give more Base AP than just training Base that turn with no drugs (since a full art turn at reasonable conversion will be returning more than 4AP of base per pill)

If you're sometimes wondering why math people are objecting spending time on stuff like Coldstar Blade so vehemently, this is why. If it starts looking like we have time for more arts than the barebone basics of what we need to function at appropriate tournament level we'll be sure to let the thread know.

EDIT: minor fixes, also meant SNR and not UGM.
 
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veekie said:
Ling Qi did not consider Hanyi in the wrong, or she wouldn't be demanding an apology from Yu Nuan instead of Hanyi.
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I think you are being far too lenient on Hanyi, and this statement of yours in particular is wrong.

yrsillar said:
On the other hand, Hanyi had actually caused the both of them some trouble. If, or rather when it got around that Ling Qi had allowed one of her spirits to get attacked by a lower ranked disciple it would give her detractors even more ammunition if she didn't do anything about it.
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Ling Qi has to demand an apology from Yu Nuan, or she's making a statement that she will let lower-ranked disciples attack her spirit with no consequences. Which honestly leaves a bad taste in my mouth, that we're forced to demand an apology from someone our spirit bothered first. And consistently. For a month.

And I'm pretty sure Hanyi knew she wasn't supposed to be bothering other disciples, or she wouldn't have been so sheepish and evasive when telling her story to Ling Qi.

Given the logic you outlined, the way Hanyi behaved is very understandable. But that doesn't change the fact that she behaved badly, and we're being forced to behave badly as well to cover for the rightful result of her rudeness. This is not a random stranger shoving our kid into the fountain for being noisy. This is someone our 'kid' has been bothering for a month finally losing her temper.

Which, honestly? It is a valuable life lesson for Hanyi to learn that when you annoy someone sufficiently, they can retaliate, and no, asking your more powerful guardian to take revenge for the justifiable retaliation is not acceptable.
 
Kai Merah said:
Which, honestly? It is a valuable life lesson for Hanyi to learn that when you annoy someone sufficiently, they can retaliate, and no, asking your more powerful guardian to take revenge for the justifiable retaliation is not acceptable.
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I had kind of thought this was acceptable actually. Not exactly impressive or courageous but certainly not something beyond the pale if you aren't reaching up too far for help.
 
Kai Merah said:
I think you are being far too lenient on Hanyi, and this statement of yours in particular is wrong.



Ling Qi has to demand an apology from Yu Nuan, or she's making a statement that she will let lower-ranked disciples attack her spirit with no consequences. Which honestly leaves a bad taste in my mouth, that we're forced to demand an apology from someone our spirit bothered first. And consistently. For a month.

And I'm pretty sure Hanyi knew she wasn't supposed to be bothering other disciples, or she wouldn't have been so sheepish and evasive when telling her story to Ling Qi.

Given the logic you outlined, the way Hanyi behaved is very understandable. But that doesn't change the fact that she behaved badly, and we're being forced to behave badly as well to cover for the rightful result of her rudeness. This is not a random stranger shoving our kid into the fountain for being noisy. This is someone our 'kid' has been bothering for a month finally losing her temper.

Which, honestly? It is a valuable life lesson for Hanyi to learn that when you annoy someone sufficiently, they can retaliate, and no, asking your more powerful guardian to take revenge for the justifiable retaliation is not acceptable.
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Just to add to your point:

'I could,' Ling Qi thought. 'But it's my fault for not paying attention to what she was doing in the first place. I'm supposed to be her guardian'. It was a weird and unwelcome thought, but not one Ling Qi could avoid having. "Yu Nuan, I will repeat. I will need an apology, but I am willing to give you some recompense for lost time and trouble," she held up a hand to quiet Hanyi. "If you want to challenge someone, ask me and I'll help you arrange it."
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"...If you win, I'll add on helping you wrangle a spirit," Ling Qi said after a moment.
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Ling Qi straight out thinks that Hanyi is in the wrong here; she is insistent on the apology only because of politics. She is offering to recompense Nuan Yu on the damage that Hanyi did and throwing the spirit wrangling as a bonus if Nuan Yu also agrees to the duel.
 
mc2rpg said:
I had kind of thought this was acceptable actually. Not exactly impressive or courageous but certainly not something beyond the pale if you aren't reaching up too far for help.
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I'd consider this acceptable if someone stronger was bullying Hanyi in the first place. That Hanyi was the one who was bothering them this whole time... I'm not sure exactly what was Zeqing's stance on this matter, but this is not the way I want to raise our little sister.
 
In a more typical xianxia, Hanyi is the dipshit protagonist who stirs up hornets nests, and Ling Qi is her mentor figure who murders the hell out of the pursuers. A few arcs later, Ling Qi dies, either from Hanyi stirring up even bigger trouble, a sudden invasion from a new sect/continent/planet/plane of existence, or an unexpected demon beast she saves Hanyi from.
 
And to further focus on the next few turns, and ENM in particular, there are 2 paths to take:
  1. We resolve get ENM, so turn 6 will be either 2x ENM (gets level 3) + 1x Archive for social, or 3x ENM (gets level 4) and archive for social turn 7.
    • Lets us immediately cover both fade and stealth until we're mid-late Green 4, and focus our archive dive efforts on getting as good a social art as possible.
  2. We don't get ENM and do something else turn 6 (like 2x HDW), then have to either split archive for social and fade+stealth (as well as CDE+), or do multiple back-to-back archive dives.
    • Back to back archive dives are pretty heavy on yrs, and on our AP problems (esp. if we go to 3d floor), and will have us spend another few turns with no fade/stealth art support.
    • Single archive dive to try and get an all-encompassing social art and a worthy Fade/Stealth-type art as convenient for us[1] as ENM and get CDE+ along the way seems like massive overreach likely to saddle us with poor choices for the things we want, which is a bad state to be in when we're looking at core build aspects.
My preference is pretty clear; ENM saves us a lot of complications and fits amazingly well with our current and future build. There are people who don't like it on thematic grounds which is perfectly reasonable, but be aware of the kind of headache and likely costs of such a stance.

[1] ENM is dark/wind aka sixiang-buffable and rapid training and uses arm meridians which are free real estate, mechanically it's as perfect as we can expect from an art for those build aspects, especially since Wind Thief is losing the offensive stealth aspects that SCS used to overlap with ENM.
 
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I favor the bombastic/aggressive option because it is the more Hanyi-like personality-wise, and because it uses her highest stat Presence, which should give her the best shot at beating Yu Nuan.
Now, I don't think that she can actually beat Yu Nuan no matter what, but Hanyi needs a lesson and if she loses after giving her best shot, there cannot be any excuses or "ifs" about it, and it will stick better.
I certainly hope that after her loss, Ling Qi makes her apologize to Yu Nuan for harassing her, just as she made Yu Nuan apologize for throwing Hanyi into a river.
 
AbeoLogos said:
So look, this post is a big mess, but my point is I don't think it's fair to say that a) any of the options are a large departure from Hanyi's current character/nature, b) any of the options are no departure from Hanyi's current character/nature, and c) any of the options is, more than any other, simply aping another character. Each option is multi-faceted, and most likely deliberately so on @yrsillar's part. They all possess contradictions relative the supposed rolemodels too. A quiet and melancholic Defensive, Yin, and Composure song doesn't fit either Zeqing or Ling Qi; Zeqing doesn't do Defensive, and the Composure aspect of Ling Qi's arts are... quite narratively subdued. None of these are a perfect fit for anyone, and they shouldn't be, not in the way being suggested.
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Then what exactly are we supposed to be using to decide how to vote?

Seriously, if any of the options could mean anything, maybe the people voting bombastic because it suits their musical taste more have a point.
 
I don't want short term reasoning like 'it'll help her against Yu Nuan' in a choice about her long term leanings and foundation. Yu Nuan is one duel regardless of whether it's her first or whatever. Even if she's displeased with the result then her world will keep moving. If she gets her 'arts' into a crunch, then she'll have to live with it, and since she's a spirit she's a lot less flexible than a cultivator is with arts. Cultivators lose a little time and move on, with arts. Spirits like her do not.
 
Alright, I still think that Hanyi is being bratty and obstinate because she wants other people's attention, but I do not think that bombastic and overbearing is the right direction to take it. Given that Hanyi is the most human-looking of our spirits, and seems the most willing to actually go off on her own to engage with other cultivators, I believe that she needs other tools in how to deal with cultivators. There is a time for everything, and making sure that Hanyi has different tools to get what she wants would be beneficial for those different times.

And, if I'm right about Hanyi wanting attention, then helping compose this song with her will allow us to discuss why she wants peoples attention as well as how to make people want to pay attention to her rather than demanding their attention. In that vein, I will be voting for:

[X] A beautiful and alluring piece (Control, Balanced, Manipulation)
 
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