[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
 
1. It's much cheaper for them to construct ships at the source, especially as the greatest expense is the wood and most of these places have lots of wood lying around.

Do all our colonies and league members have access to all the different kinds of wood needed? I would have thought we'd need oak bottomed triremes so they could be beached, rather than pine bottomed which means the ship will be damaged if you land it at anything besides a prepared port. Then of course they need pine for most of the structure and fir for the mast (though I guess if we're really going for light weight specials, you could build the whole ship out of fir, but since it is weaker and less rot resistant than pine, we'd need to replace ships more often and they would need to overnight in ports even more).

It will grow in different directions and ways, and have a slightly different flavor. But it will certainly grow faster because it is no longer just an ethnic cult of Eretria but a more general cult that cuts across cultural differences. At the same time, keeping it at Eretria will give you some cool stuff like being able to call upon the Sybil for advice or receiving delegations from Romans and other Italians seeking the Sybil.

Hm. So mostly the benefits of having the oracle remain in Kymai are that Kymai starts with 1250 more freemen and we don't have to lay out the funds to build her a shrine?

fasquardon
 
Do all our colonies and league members have access to all the different kinds of wood needed? I would have thought we'd need oak bottomed triremes so they could be beached, rather than pine bottomed which means the ship will be damaged if you land it at anything besides a prepared port. Then of course they need pine for most of the structure and fir for the mast (though I guess if we're really going for light weight specials, you could build the whole ship out of fir, but since it is weaker and less rot resistant than pine, we'd need to replace ships more often and they would need to overnight in ports even more).

Most of Adriatic Italy and Illyria is covered in forest right now, so yes. Triremes aren't that wood-intensive.

Hm. So mostly the benefits of having the oracle remain in Kymai are that Kymai starts with 1250 more freemen and we don't have to lay out the funds to build her a shrine?

Uh, no? I just said it would grow faster in Kymai.
 
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].

I am recovering from a nasty fever. My speech will be short. I am saddened to learn that our passionate discussions about the rightful place of Metics have begotten an act of violence. It is only a single act for now, yet we must be wary. Strife can grow from the tiniest seed. Let us pray Apollo and Athene, so that we continue to resolve our differences in a peaceful manner.
So says Nereos son of Theodotos, whose workshops stand right by the Byssos harbour.
 
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[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and gro
 
Fuck, I think we've overlooked just how useful it would be to have an Oracle in Eretria that we could consult whenever needed. Right now, as players, we get our news through Demes or the members of Demes, which, while it can be honest on occasion, is often filtered through their own competing priorities and interests.

But an Oracle is an institution that relies on clear-sighted impartial advice to keep people coming, so having an Oracle speak would not only cut to the gut of the matter, but also legitimize whatever decisions we eventually end up making even if they fall squarely into the category of unpopular-but-effective. The utility this could have in preventing civil war/civil strife should not be underestimated.

More broadly, I feel that Phokion et al. consistently underestimate the effectiveness and power of religion and cult mysteries in this time period. It's not some silly thing that we can toss aside on high-minded appeals to pathos. It has real power and we underestimate it at our own peril.
 
Fuck, I think we've overlooked just how useful it would be to have an Oracle in Eretria that we could consult whenever needed. Right now, as players, we get our news through Demes or the members of Demes, which, while it can be honest on occasion, is often filtered through their own competing priorities and interests.

That's a very good point I think.

What's the vote count currently?

fasquardon
 
[X] [Motion] Phokion's Amendment. The Xenoparakletor will have one deputy chosen at their leisure and approved by the Popular Tribunal.
[X] [Missions] Flexible diplomacy prioritizing breadth and the ability to address multiple issues over focus. [2 missions from winning Demos, then ability to choose 1 more from the losing slates per term].
[X] [Oligarchs] Kymai must be made anew and bury old hatreds [+400 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, city may have more wealth and political conflict in early years].
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].
[X] [Oaths] Make Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros swear oaths to the Divine Marriage [Cities will be unhappy but Epulian League oath will be preserved].
[X] [Lands] Grant additional lands to Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros [Both cities will be granted new lands by Eretria and grow in population, both will be very happy].
 
37 to 36 for Nea Kymai (A sapling of wood)
Adhoc vote count started by Spacegnom on Jul 8, 2019 at 3:36 PM, finished with 6384 posts and 73 votes.
 
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Pretty much. I believe I said people would be angry if players went away from rebuilding the temple, but it wasn't required (if it was, why have a vote?). There are a number of cases in which auguries were ignored or re-rolled historically. However, if things then fuck up, then citizens will blame ignoring the augurs as for why that happened and it could be deleterious to morale and unity.

Yeah, if I remember things correctly either Rome or Athens (or maybe even both) had a law that allowed them to legislate "away" bad auguries to avoid for example not being able to conduct a war when they wanted (or having to do so under bad omens...).
 
As to how the Sybil could play with our OOC decision I would expect any prediction she would to be volountarely open to conflicting interpretations, just like RL oracles where know to do. Her advice to the Kimaians is, in fact, a pretty good exemple of that: ''The people of Kimai will survive'' could both mean that the city will pull-it through or that the people will survive precisely because they would accept Eretria offer. If whatever interprétations peoples go with doesn't end up coming to pass the Oracle can always say the other one was right...
Look at it from a different angle:

Imagine the Sibyl, not as just a huckster, but as a woman trying to exert influence over the political landscape. What does saying "the people of Kymai will survive" do to affect the mindset of the city? Well, it focuses the mind on how to see to it that the people DO survive. Which, when your city is threatened by a barbarian horde but the Eretrians are offering to carry the people away over the sea, may be a good thing for them to focus on.

Yes, it is a prediction that has multiple ways of coming true. But it has functions other than to be a "cold read" method for making the oracle seem prescient regardless of what happens.

Finally, I must admit that the whole argument that putting the Oracle in Nea Kimai will somehow get Greece itself to embrace the Divine Mariage a bit odd, to say the least. For one the Oracle was mainly popular in Italy and in Sicily, with only little cultural and religious pull in Greece itself, if any. Moreover, Eretria itself is both geographically closer to Greece and has more direct contact with it then Nea Kimai is likely to have so if the Oracle is to actually somehow pull that off its ods would be better in Eretria then in Nea Kimai.
Bear in mind that being 50-100 miles away across the Adriatic isn't actually really closer to a given point in Greece than being 100-200 miles away along the coast of the Adriatic. With the crossing so hazardous, a lot of merchant traffic will deliberately avoid striking out directly across the ocean, or will take the very narrowest possible crossings. Most sailors would rather travel for several days while staying within a mile or two of the coast than spend even a single day out of sight of land.

Finally, on religion and augurs, bluntly, it's part of the quest. It's not an addition and I don't know why people keep saying that the Grand Mantis is obviously rigging things. I have said multiple times that the system is not being rigged, and in any case the Grand Mantis is a sortition position which gets switched out every four years. There are permanent priests and seers, but they don't have anywhere near the same power as they do in Ancient Rome where the Pontifex Maximus is a major position. In any case, it adds an element of randomness to elections, and forces players to consider things as people in the era, not ruthless maximizers. That the augurs allowed Demos Antipatria to blow open what was once the massive dominance of the Demos Drakonia isn't a bug, it's a feature, and it's also one that helps protect democracy so long as it remains neutral.
I think this bears amplifying a bit.

This ties into the point I made some weeks ago, and that others made more recently, about Roman battle tactics and how listening to auguries for tactical advice could actually make the Romans more effective in warfare, even though we today would conclude that they were basically determining their tactics via a random number generator. Specifically, randomness can improve a system. Especially a system that contains few other procedural barriers to prevent failure of the system.

Greek democracy is very hit-or-miss when it comes to preventing single-party rule. Having a random element that can sometimes just (in effect) roll the dice and convince a large chunk of the electorate that it's Time To Change regardless of why is a good way to disrupt this. If all political parties within the state are good-faith actors with reasonable ideas about how to proceed, it is probably for the best if power is shared between them- which makes things like sortition and rule by auguries useful, as a check against the natural tendency of people to become very loyal to a single faction or ideology.

If oracles are effectively random number generators, then this is no different.
 
Well, augurs are random number generators. Oracles often give useful and practicable advice dispensed by an unquestionable religious authority that is seen as beyond ordinary human comprehension. It's just that the cryptic and really famous statements are the ones people remember. A lot of the time it's a simple yes/no, but when you get to matters of state they're going to be far more tricky.
 
[X] [Prophecy] A Tree of Stone, growing in a newly planted grove upon the ashes of ancient monuments [-250 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, -70 talents, Sibyl will go to Eretria Eskhata, Eretria Eskhata will gain an oracle and cultural influence].

I'm an agent of chaos.
 
I would advise against a sampling of wood as it looks to eventually create a East/West split in the Epulian League. The religion and culture will diverge and with how strong we've already made Kymai, we could see them arising as a focal point of separation. An Oracle is a such a rare and powerful force in this time that it could very well lead to us planting the seed of Epulian separation even as we go above and beyond for Kymai.

Doubling back to this, I'm not sure I understand this. Why would spreading your cult to the other side of the Adriatic and strengthening common cultural ties lead to more separation than...not doing that and having the largest city in the Epulian League not have a common cult with you? :p
 
Doubling back to this, I'm not sure I understand this. Why would spreading your cult to the other side of the Adriatic and strengthening common cultural ties lead to more separation than...not doing that and having the largest city in the Epulian League not have a common cult with you? :p

it is a major argument being made against sapling. That Kymai would leave our league for reasons I do not quite understand.
 
Doubling back to this, I'm not sure I understand this. Why would spreading your cult to the other side of the Adriatic and strengthening common cultural ties lead to more separation than...not doing that and having the largest city in the Epulian League not have a common cult with you? :p
I meant hundreds of years down the line with 2 competing centers of religion diverging in beliefs like Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Or Sunni and Shia. When Rome was rivaled by Constantinople as the center of Christendom, it created conflict between the different sects. It can lead to conflict when each large center of religion is convinced they are in the right and the other is a heretic.
 
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Look, if you want Kymai to be closer to you than it is now, then obviously you should pick sapling! You're literally getting a new cult center for the Divine Marriage. I'm not sure I can make it more obvious than that that this is helpful for cultural commonality.

I meant hundreds of years down the line with 2 competing centers of religion diverging in beliefs like Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Or Sunni and Shia. When Rome was rivaled by Constantinople as the center of Christendom, it created conflict between the different sects.

That's not really how Greek religion works, though. The concept of theology and dogma which is the actual core origin of the East/West split, besides culture and politics, doesn't really exist.
 
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Look, if you want Kymai to be closer to you than it is now, then obviously you should pick sapling! You're literally getting a new cult center for the Divine Marriage. I'm not sure I can make it more obvious than that that this is helpful for cultural commonality.



That's not really how Greek religion works, though.
Then I misunderstood how Greek religions work and will have to think further on my choice
 
I meant hundreds of years down the line with 2 competing centers of religion diverging in beliefs like Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Or Sunni and Shia. When Rome was rivaled by Constantinople as the center of Christendom, it created conflict between the different sects.
There was more to it then that. Despite their grecophilia the Romans never viewed Greek as anything more than a hick language, despite half of their empire speaking Greek.

Also Rome is much larger than we are and it took longer to go from one end of the empire to the other.

Also language drift was a thing that happened that further split the various sections of the empire from each other.
 
There was more to it then that. Despite their grecophilia the Romans never viewed Greek as anything more than a hick language, despite half of their empire speaking Greek.

Also Rome is much larger than we are and it took longer to go from one end of the empire to the other.

Also language drift was a thing that happened that further split the various sections of the empire from each other.
We can also see it in the various Protestant religions which lacking a strong central authority have splintered into hundreds if not thousands of slightly different sects.

But as Cateshwayo said, that's not how Greek religions worked.
 
Changing my vote, I now believe that fostering closer cultural ties with Kymai from the outset is the better course of action.

[X] [Prophecy] A Sapling of Wood, growing in a primordial forest looming over waves lashing the crags of a rocky coast [+1000 Kymaians go to Nea Kymai, Sibyl will go Nea Kymai, Nea Kymai will become a new center of the Divine Marriage].
 
We can also see it in the various Protestant religions which lacking a strong central authority have splintered into hundreds if not thousands of slightly different sects.

But as Cateshwayo said, that's not how Greek religions worked.
yes but that did not hinge on Catholicism having multiple religious centers but in people losing faith in the church.

These various splits did not occur because one part of the empire was wealthier than the other, or because there was more than one spiritual center. There were other circumstances that brought about the rift, and they all occured mostly in structured hierarchies where multiple factions were competing for power and influence.

Kymai is not competing with us though. We are the master and they are not. They will grow slower than us too, so nothing they do will prevent us from holding all the cards. I mean just look at Gela and Syracuse. Gela has all the prestige, but Syracuse has all the power.

Also as you said.

Also we don't plan to rock Kymai around so it is unlikely they would have cause to rebel on their own.
 
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