NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
In my opinion as a humble playwright, I believe this motion is rather premature. Let us at least wait until Kymai is saved before making any songs or plays.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Leukos:
"I'm just glad he didn't use the Stentorian Helmet this time..."
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
Ah. But it is needed for memories can change with time. Records must be written as fast as possible. Plays must be present for showing by the time the Kymaians hear our decision.
Even if they are badly written, even if there is no meter to the dialogue, as long as the word for word dialogue and the frustration and anger among the debaters can be seen by the audience and readers, then we have something to give to the world as an explanation for why Nea-Kymai would be what it is after our voting!
And as for why we should have an explanation ready as fast as possible, it is because we had unwittingly put Eretria's prestige, its honor and commitment to deals at stake on the blade of the problem of Nea-Kymai. I see no way Eretria gets out of its decision without any damage to its honor and prestige, whatever the way the vote goes.
We have to minimize that damage.
*Well, we have to have a propaganda spin ready. Otherwise Eretria is gonna be politically embarrased in the Mediterranean world, no matter which choice wins*
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@kilopi505
...Why, exactly, are you so worried about us needing to have a 'propaganda spin' ready to avoid embarrassment? We have good explanations immediately to hand regardless of the explanation. If we impose the Linean Law, that's because it's just plain our normal law for new colonies. If we don't, that's because we're being merciful to the Kymaians and letting them keep their polis together without having it diluted into nothing by foreigners. Either way, we're not going to somehow get massively embarrassed.
Also, remember that communications in this era consist of guys wandering around talking about stuff. Only citizens of Eretria are even allowed to be present in the assembly, so details of what transpires in the assembly don't get around the Mediterranean very fast unless we feel like spreading that news ourselves. There's no Twitter mobs making up stories about what we did and why and running away with them.
Plus, communication is pretty low-bandwidth and high-latency, what with it consisting of "guys talking about what they remember after long sea voyages." As a result, the focus tends to be less on what people say and more on what they do. Nobody's going to take much of an interest in what we say about what we're doing, compared to the fact of us evacuating Kymai and putting (or not putting) them under the Linean Law.
It may become known that we had a big argument about it in the Assembly, but all democratic city-states have big arguments in the Assembly and this is not somehow abnormal or embarrassing any more than 'being a democracy' is itself embarrassing.
...Why, exactly, are you so worried about us needing to have a 'propaganda spin' ready to avoid embarrassment? We have good explanations immediately to hand regardless of the explanation. If we impose the Linean Law, that's because it's just plain our normal law for new colonies. If we don't, that's because we're being merciful to the Kymaians and letting them keep their polis together without having it diluted into nothing by foreigners. Either way, we're not going to somehow get massively embarrassed.
Also, remember that communications in this era consist of guys wandering around talking about stuff. Only citizens of Eretria are even allowed to be present in the assembly, so details of what transpires in the assembly don't get around the Mediterranean very fast unless we feel like spreading that news ourselves. There's no Twitter mobs making up stories about what we did and why and running away with them.
Plus, communication is pretty low-bandwidth and high-latency, what with it consisting of "guys talking about what they remember after long sea voyages." As a result, the focus tends to be less on what people say and more on what they do. Nobody's going to take much of an interest in what we say about what we're doing, compared to the fact of us evacuating Kymai and putting (or not putting) them under the Linean Law.
It may become known that we had a big argument about it in the Assembly, but all democratic city-states have big arguments in the Assembly and this is not somehow abnormal or embarrassing any more than 'being a democracy' is itself embarrassing.
- Location
- United Kingdom
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
It is unfortunate that the citizens of Kymai view the law of our noble League as being such undesirable things. But we should not allow this to cause our focus to waver, our goal is and must be, to forge a cohesive Epulian Culture throughout the League. Allowing such a substantial power as Kymai to flout the law which exists in large part to bring this about is to invite greater problems upon ourselves in the future. We cannot endlessly take decisions in the present while ignoring the problems they will bring about.
Honestly, I think the Metic situation is considerably more serious than the Kymai decision. The problem with the previous Assembly - and this was pointed out at the time - wasn't that any of the suggestions were individually terrible ideas (in fact they were all good) but that by giving them so much at once we would obviously set their expectations at an unrealistically high level. The problem is that now that we've done it once they're explicitly pushing their luck and asking for more than is reasonable.
The problem is, again, not that these requests are inherently unreasonable... but politics is about more than having the right policy. This isn't just about what reforms are granted but how they're granted. Are they forced from the citizenry under the threat of civil unrest or are they reforms jointly enacted? Are they brought about in a way that makes the citizens look at Metics as grasping and greedy always pressing and asking for more? Are the reforms being passed in a measured and sensible way?
Paying off their debts is the best option right now because while it only delays their demands, delaying their demands is a victory. It shows them they can't just make unreasonable demands one after the other because the citizens will push back, but it's not a slap in the face because it also gives the Metics a 'win' without a radical concession. The Assembly rejects their unreasonable demands but generously grants a reasonable request that the Metics didn't even make. This helps reset the Metic/Citizen relationship and in 8 years time at the next Assembly, even if they make these exact same requests, they'll be more acceptable because at the last Assembly (this one) they won't have been given a massive concession.
This needs to be nipped in the bud now. Not so that we can deny them additional rights in perpetuity, but so that their requests don't continue to escalate and instead come at a more reasonable level.
[X] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
It is unfortunate that the citizens of Kymai view the law of our noble League as being such undesirable things. But we should not allow this to cause our focus to waver, our goal is and must be, to forge a cohesive Epulian Culture throughout the League. Allowing such a substantial power as Kymai to flout the law which exists in large part to bring this about is to invite greater problems upon ourselves in the future. We cannot endlessly take decisions in the present while ignoring the problems they will bring about.
Honestly, I think the Metic situation is considerably more serious than the Kymai decision. The problem with the previous Assembly - and this was pointed out at the time - wasn't that any of the suggestions were individually terrible ideas (in fact they were all good) but that by giving them so much at once we would obviously set their expectations at an unrealistically high level. The problem is that now that we've done it once they're explicitly pushing their luck and asking for more than is reasonable.
The problem is, again, not that these requests are inherently unreasonable... but politics is about more than having the right policy. This isn't just about what reforms are granted but how they're granted. Are they forced from the citizenry under the threat of civil unrest or are they reforms jointly enacted? Are they brought about in a way that makes the citizens look at Metics as grasping and greedy always pressing and asking for more? Are the reforms being passed in a measured and sensible way?
Paying off their debts is the best option right now because while it only delays their demands, delaying their demands is a victory. It shows them they can't just make unreasonable demands one after the other because the citizens will push back, but it's not a slap in the face because it also gives the Metics a 'win' without a radical concession. The Assembly rejects their unreasonable demands but generously grants a reasonable request that the Metics didn't even make. This helps reset the Metic/Citizen relationship and in 8 years time at the next Assembly, even if they make these exact same requests, they'll be more acceptable because at the last Assembly (this one) they won't have been given a massive concession.
This needs to be nipped in the bud now. Not so that we can deny them additional rights in perpetuity, but so that their requests don't continue to escalate and instead come at a more reasonable level.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't think the problems are going to be that big. Future colonies founded by us are going to be smaller than Nea Kymai's starting size, and founded entirely or almost entirely by people from the Epulian League. They are not going to be able to point to a centuries-long history of independent existence and prior culture, and are not going to be the last remnant of a conquered city.
It will not be difficult to argue that the same situation simply doesn't apply in that case.
That, or they're rationally asking for multiple things they know they won't get all of, but all of which are popular among the metics, and so that we can be put in a position of choosing one of several things if we do elect to give them anything.
This is a haggling culture still, and people know about the idea of asking high in the full expectation of being bargained down.
I didn't hear a word about "threats" in the entire update.
For that matter, I don't like the repeated characterization of their requests as "unreasonable." They aren't, really. They may be more than the city thinks it can afford, or more than it's willing to give, but none of them are unreasonable. It's not out of the question for the proboulos to invite a metic elected by the Metic Assembly to speak to the ekklesia. There are places in the Greek world where that would happen. It's not unreasonable or insane for them to ask for debt or tax relief, people ask for that all the time all over the world. Sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't.
I mean, what would "reasonable" even look like if this is "unreasonable?" They could ask for the same things, only less (a five percent tax cut, relief of half the debts), I guess? Except that if we weren't strapped for cash due to our own projects, the financial size of the things they're asking for wouldn't be out of the question for a once-every-eight-years expenditure. Remember that from the point of view of the Metics, they only even get to gather to ask us for anything about three times in a generation under current laws. That means they can't afford to blow their opportunity on something penny-ante or trivial that won't significantly alleviate the problems the metics face. They literally can't afford to, in some cases, because many of them are already in crushing debt or under a crushing tax burden that may drive them into debt.
- Location
- Orlando, Florida
Revoting because I support that user motion.
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Amber Trade Mission. The Enetoi were Eretria's staunch allies in the war against the Liburni. We must know capitalize on this to gain a monopoly over the export of amber to the wider Mediterranean. Through this we can strengthen ties and open the way for a future colony in the marshy lagoons off the coast of their lands, strengthening an Eretrian presence in the northern Adriatic [If successful, Eretria will be then be able to construct a trading colony in the Venetian lagoon and a new monopoly trade route worth 25 talents].
[X] USER MOTION: Urge Eretria's playwrights and writers to immortalize the Kymaian debate in plays and scrolls, for the study of future generations. As an explanation and apology for why Nea-Kymai became whatever it would become after our voting has been decided. And as a tool to make Eretria better known in the world.
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Amber Trade Mission. The Enetoi were Eretria's staunch allies in the war against the Liburni. We must know capitalize on this to gain a monopoly over the export of amber to the wider Mediterranean. Through this we can strengthen ties and open the way for a future colony in the marshy lagoons off the coast of their lands, strengthening an Eretrian presence in the northern Adriatic [If successful, Eretria will be then be able to construct a trading colony in the Venetian lagoon and a new monopoly trade route worth 25 talents].
[X] USER MOTION: Urge Eretria's playwrights and writers to immortalize the Kymaian debate in plays and scrolls, for the study of future generations. As an explanation and apology for why Nea-Kymai became whatever it would become after our voting has been decided. And as a tool to make Eretria better known in the world.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Not allowing that user motion. It is pointless because all people care about is the assembly's final decision.
Also, please pass all user motions by me before making them a formal motion. I'll make that a formal rule in just a bit. Tagging me suffices.
Also, please pass all user motions by me before making them a formal motion. I'll make that a formal rule in just a bit. Tagging me suffices.
- Location
- United Kingdom
Yes, that's explicitly the case and not at all contradictory with what I said. Each reform is individually a 'truly radical demand' in an attempt to force the citizens to grant them at least one radical reform. The fact that it's only one reform doesn't mean the last assembly didn't set their expectations unrealisticly high and they aren't now pressing their luck.
The threat of civil unrest and discontent is an implicit danger in all societal reform involving different classes. It doesn't have to be mentioned in the update for us to be aware that civil unrest is an obvious risk if the situation is handled badly. Moreover, it's even easier for attitudes to sour and the ruling class to begin to feel like the threat is there and being used even if it isn't.
Yes... and you've literally quoted me saying that the requests aren't inherently unreasonable so what's your point here?
What's unreasonable, as I already said, isn't the requests themselves but the timing of the requests and the tone in which they're being made. The Metics are explicitly pressing their luck. It was even noted in the update that there is a section of the citizenry quickly becoming outraged by the Metics seeking to - in their minds - take advantage of their generosity.
And what do we think happens next? Several people warned during the first Assembly that yes, individually all the requests were fine, but granting so many together would set an unrealistic expectation among the Metics for the following Assembly. That has now happened. Some of us are now giving, what should be an obvious warning, that if those unrealistic expectations are now met and raised higher the Metics will only continue to press their luck. And again, what happens next? It's obvious, discontent - not among the Metics - but the Citizens. A feeling that the Metics are greedy and grasping, that reforms have been forced out of them, that the Metics are seeking to gain at the expense of the citizenry not alongside them. This is in no way a lesser threat to social cohesion than discontent among the Metics.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Unfortunately lower classes don't always wait at your leisure to press their demands when they think you'll be happy to take them. The Plebeians held Rome's safety and economy hostage until the patricians broke. By comparison, this is hardly notable
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
If SV was in charge of Rome during that, it would have destroyed Rome overnight out of pure pettiness and spite for the 'disrespect' presented to the players.Unfortunately lower classes don't always wait at your leisure to press their demands when they think you'll be happy to take them. The Plebeians held Rome's safety and economy hostage until the patricians broke. By comparison, this is hardly notable
- Location
- United Kingdom
Ungrateful bastards that they are!Unfortunately lower classes don't always wait at your leisure to press their demands when they think you'll be happy to take them. The Plebeians held Rome's safety and economy hostage until the patricians broke. By comparison, this is hardly notable
Seriously though, yes I'm aware of that. But the way to manage this situation is to... well, actually manage it, so that both classes are content even if they aren't ecstatically happy. And just granting reform after reform isn't managing the situation, it's yielding to one side of it which is guaranteed to cause anger on the other side.
And it's not like I'm advocating refusing them everything, my suggestion is to pay off their debts this turn and grant one of these reforms next Assembly as that puts a bigger gap between the reforms being granted and makes the citizens less likely to be discontent. Paying off their debts isn't a reform that changes the status quo after all, but it leaves the Metics content and gives the citizens time to get used to the idea of further reform.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Resolving debts mostly helps the poor masses. They aren't the one's i'm afraid of, I'm worried about the rich craftsmen who have enough money to have heavily taxed incomes and buy their own houses in the city, both the old ones and the ones we bring in this turn. I would much rather that they decide to build their houses in our city than one of our colonies.Ungrateful bastards that they are!
Seriously though, yes I'm aware of that. But the way to manage this situation is to... well, actually manage it, so that both classes are content even if they aren't ecstatically happy. And just granting request after request isn't managing the situation, it's yielding to one side of it which is guaranteed to cause anger on the other side.
And it's not like I'm advocating refusing them everything, my suggestion is to pay off their debts this turn and grant one of these reforms next Assembly as that puts a bigger gap between the reforms being granted and makes the citizens less likely to be discontent. Paying off their debts isn't a reform that changes the status quo after all, but it leaves the Metics content and gives the citizens time to get used to the idea of further reform.
So, still catching up with the quest, but what an exciting turn!
This is great. :lol
INB4 we bring in some kind of marriage rite involving the bride using a lasso
This is great. :lol
INB4 we bring in some kind of marriage rite involving the bride using a lasso
- Location
- United Kingdom
Which is a fair concern but not one I think is especially at risk of happening. Labour isn't that mobile in these days and the colonies you're talking about are just getting on their feet so aren't set up to handle a large number of immigrants and as less wealthy cities there's even a risk of being less financially well off there than in Eretria. Also with a number of poorer Metics already leaving to seek their opportunities elsewhere those who remain will find themselves in a better position as they will be able to command a higher wage, combine that with debt relief and I don't think they're going to be particularly keen to leave.
you're asking SV Questing to abandon one of our most cherished traditions here
this is assuming we wouldn't have burnt the city down before then through some genius brain plan to make flour mills owned by the people
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The new craftsmen we bring in by immigration are by definition mobile labor and the their profits depend not on the local wages of tenant farmers but upon the local price of their valuable goods. The smaller economies of the colonies and our status as a trade hub are the only thing keeping them from just hopping on a second boat to gain the benefits and dignity of citizenship (the dignity part being why house rights are just as important as tax; it lets them be "better" than other metics)
I don't expect it to be a case of "take this or lose a trade route NOW" but I also don't think we can get a radical reform like this as an option through conditions better than this current overeach in a reasonable amount of time.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The problem is that the Metic Assembly only meets once every eight years, and is on a fixed clock. The metics don't have the luxury of waiting until we're in the mood to grant them concessions that alleviate their pressing economic problems, and we don't have the luxury of carefully managing their treatment so that they're in a good mood when the Metic Assembly rolls around.Ungrateful bastards that they are!
Seriously though, yes I'm aware of that. But the way to manage this situation is to... well, actually manage it, so that both classes are content even if they aren't ecstatically happy. And just granting reform after reform isn't managing the situation, it's yielding to one side of it which is guaranteed to cause anger on the other side.
Plus, if the reforms are trickled out at a slow enough rate (i.e. a generation or so passes between significant changes in the situation of the metics), then the pressure from the metics may become unsustainable. They may decide, not without reason, that they can't rely on the existing system of the Metic Assembly to protect their interests, and start taking more drastic steps like staging a general strike.
Given how many of the metics are agricultural tenant farmers who are almost certainly kept working on their farms through debt and sharecropping arrangements, I wouldn't be too sure of that. We might very well see a sudden surge of metics who are free not to work certain farms, which would have its own knock-on effects little or no different from a tax cut or allowing the richer metics to buy houses.
We explicitly set up the Linean Laws to increase labor mobility, because we needed it as a release valve for disaffected metics.
Making the metics more disaffected by convincing them that nothing will change for them also makes them more likely to strike out for the colonies where they can actually get to participate in the political process and blaze their own trails for a change.
That applies both to the impoverished metics currently pinned down by debt, and to the wealthy metics currently frustrated by bans on property-holding and high taxes.
What it's going to do is to shift the balance- but the stability of our economy is related to that balance, so modest changes in the rate at which metics leave for the colonies can still disrupt our economy.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I won't dispute that they're is risks to both options, and therefore I find the decision of those sharing Linos apprehension fair enough, even if I am closer to Obander and Memnon and think Nea Kimay very probable integration in the Epulian League would naturally have it drift toward Epulian institutions and culture over time.
I do feel that other motivations to vote against letting them keep their own laws, however, a bit less solid.
Some have expressed annoyance with what they perceived as Kimay ingratitude, her unwilingness to sign with the plan straight away and without conditions. Here I will restate some of the arguments given by the QM but I believe they bear repeting: we are dealing with an utterly shelshock polis and we should consider their reaction in that light.
In a few years Kimai whent from a solid regional power to essentially loosing everything. It had good trade routes, now it can't afford to entertain them. It had something of an Etruscan buffer with whom it had, at this point if not always in the past, cordial relations and they have seen it destroyed. It had a reasonably numerous army of hoplites and dependencies in her immediate vicinity. The first was decimated and most of the seconds have been lost. The Samnites who had once been only ''in the background'', so to speak, suddenly turned into an irrestible tide. Now they are besieged in their city with seemingly no mean of escape and all this happened in a few years. Even Eretria at the start of the quest isn't really a good comparaison, as its citizens had at least the time between the escape from the Old city and the arrival to Epulia to catch their breath and recover their balance while Kimay is very much still in the center of the maelstrom.
As a result they are utterly fearfull of any new factor that might appear, since those have always worked against them recently, and for them to not embrace our offer right away was probably innevitable. The sheer fact that they now have some kind of exit door and aren't as alone as before will probably help bring back a semblance of calm in Kimay and I would expect that we would have a far more rational interlocutor next time around.
Others seem to be voting against letting them keep their own law to limit Eretria involvement. Many of those where among the minority who voted against the rescue in the first place and they see going minimalist as the closest thing to their originally prefered option that is still a possibility. While I can see the logic in that ligne of reasoning the issue with it is that many sacrifices to be made to go rescue Kimay have already been made and aren't gonna be diminished by limiting the scope of the revenue. Wheter we let the Kimaians keep their own laws or not we still have spend some political capital with Rhegion, we will still piss of somebody and we will still have a four years with one less mission for our xenopralector, as well as without any mission going to a truly ambitious foreign policy proposal. Maybe we where right to go rescue Kimay, maybe we where wrong but either way we are gonna do it and most of the sacrifices it emply are gonna be made so lets go with the option that give us the most for our efforts, so to speak.
I do feel that other motivations to vote against letting them keep their own laws, however, a bit less solid.
Some have expressed annoyance with what they perceived as Kimay ingratitude, her unwilingness to sign with the plan straight away and without conditions. Here I will restate some of the arguments given by the QM but I believe they bear repeting: we are dealing with an utterly shelshock polis and we should consider their reaction in that light.
In a few years Kimai whent from a solid regional power to essentially loosing everything. It had good trade routes, now it can't afford to entertain them. It had something of an Etruscan buffer with whom it had, at this point if not always in the past, cordial relations and they have seen it destroyed. It had a reasonably numerous army of hoplites and dependencies in her immediate vicinity. The first was decimated and most of the seconds have been lost. The Samnites who had once been only ''in the background'', so to speak, suddenly turned into an irrestible tide. Now they are besieged in their city with seemingly no mean of escape and all this happened in a few years. Even Eretria at the start of the quest isn't really a good comparaison, as its citizens had at least the time between the escape from the Old city and the arrival to Epulia to catch their breath and recover their balance while Kimay is very much still in the center of the maelstrom.
As a result they are utterly fearfull of any new factor that might appear, since those have always worked against them recently, and for them to not embrace our offer right away was probably innevitable. The sheer fact that they now have some kind of exit door and aren't as alone as before will probably help bring back a semblance of calm in Kimay and I would expect that we would have a far more rational interlocutor next time around.
Others seem to be voting against letting them keep their own law to limit Eretria involvement. Many of those where among the minority who voted against the rescue in the first place and they see going minimalist as the closest thing to their originally prefered option that is still a possibility. While I can see the logic in that ligne of reasoning the issue with it is that many sacrifices to be made to go rescue Kimay have already been made and aren't gonna be diminished by limiting the scope of the revenue. Wheter we let the Kimaians keep their own laws or not we still have spend some political capital with Rhegion, we will still piss of somebody and we will still have a four years with one less mission for our xenopralector, as well as without any mission going to a truly ambitious foreign policy proposal. Maybe we where right to go rescue Kimay, maybe we where wrong but either way we are gonna do it and most of the sacrifices it emply are gonna be made so lets go with the option that give us the most for our efforts, so to speak.
Last edited:
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
In retrospect, the Spartans were clearly in the right and did nothing wrong ever.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Ah yes, the "Thanos should have snapped twice" position.
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
Clearly SV! Rome would be fierce patrons of the Cult of Saturn, given his somewhat communist-leaning themes as an agricultural and prosperity god.
- Location
- USA
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].