Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

Secretariat · Jul 2, 2019

Satar said:
Allowing Kymai to have its own laws fundamentally undermines the Epulian League; please, I beseech that those voting from it consider the longer-term implications and switch.

I really don't think it does. Again, I think we need to be able to integrate larger polities if the League is going to grow past its origins, and especially if we want to be integrating poleis of comparable size or wealth to Eretria.

Cavalier · Jul 2, 2019

Japanime said:
And what are we going to say when the other Epulian League cities demand the same right to found their own colonies by bucking the Linean Laws? Are we going to just let them?

As if we vote to let the Kymaians have their own laws so quickly after establishing these laws, the precedent will have been set, trading a short term benefit of more Kymaians for the long term headache of dealing with the other Epulian cities becoming more likely to buck our edicts as we've just proven that we aren't very committed to them.

Also, you never answered the question I asked.

The situations here are not the same. For the first, Kymai isn't even a member of the Epulian League and has not agreed to be bound by its laws. Secondly, the plan here is not founding a new colony but rather moving as much as possible the existing city of Kymai with its people and institutions and laws and collective identity. If Pylona (for example) wanted to transport itself in more or less its entirety across the Adriatic for whatever reason, that would not be founding a new colony. And while a precedent might be set, I do not think it onerous; some leeway in convincing established colonies presently outside the League to join the League, by giving them exemption from the Linean laws, may be necessary to coax over Kerkyra's former colonies as well.

Should we tell Epidauros that no, they are going to have to accept as citizens anyone who comes in for the next two decades? They would spit in our faces and rightly so.

The downside to giving the Kymaians greater cohesion as the successor to Kymai is that it will be a more powerful influence on the Adriatic, not that it would destabilize our relations with the rest of the League. They might not agree to join the League, or might seek to contest our influence within it because they won't be less than a tenth of our size. Diluting them with new citizens as a colony is a means of control and diminishing the challenge that a more equal (not really even a near-equal) peer city might pose over the long run. In any case we have an answer for someone trying to use the precedent; that this situation is unique and theirs is not and also we have forty triremes and 6000 men at arms to support our vote.

Kipeci · Jul 2, 2019

Secretariat said:
If it's up to me, I give it to them -- every member city gets one colony round-robin, and if they can't afford it, the rest of the League supports them.

I think that's a strictly good thing, if we're trying for Adriatic dominance -- we want more colonies tied to the League, and we want them sooner rather than later, both to resolve Metic pressures and to secure the best harbors before others get to them.

Providing them the exceptions means that the Metic pressure is not resolved (because only the mother city or close relatives can settle it with their own spare populace, not the whole league) which potentially ends up in ideal harbors being snapped up by tiny cities that cannot provide them enough of an initial colonist base to be a reasonable city. Sort of like how Brention is neutered as a port because a small population of the Messapii hold it and we won't let any Greeks settle there, and they are poorly suited to gain the full benefit of Hellenic maritime trade compared to actual Hellenes.

Cetashwayo · Jul 2, 2019

There appears to be a tie in the vote for Kymai. Very well. I'll extend voting out to tomorrow evening, as it's clear discussion is ongoing and even the vote totals can't decide.

Japanime · Jul 2, 2019

Secretariat said:
If it's up to me, I give it to them -- every member city gets a colony, and if they can't afford it, the rest of the League supports them.

I think that's a strictly good thing, if we're trying for Adriatic dominance -- we want more colonies, and we want them sooner rather than later.

So essentially, we're flip flopping then? As the laws we just passed the Linean Laws for colonization, are meaningless.

Furthermore, what point is there in having more colonies if the other Epulian League cities do not feel connected to Eretria, and start to take a page from Kymai?

It's already well known that unlike the other Hellenic Leagues we aren't exactly as culturally united as the rest of them, so undermining the cultural identity of the Epulian League so early before we have already established what it means to be Epulian is a mistake in my eyes.

Secretariat said:
I really don't think it does. Again, I think we need to be able to integrate larger polities if the League is going to grow past its origins, and especially if we want to be integrating poleis of comparable size or wealth to Eretria.

I don't think that should come at the expense of looking like we're playing favorites however, by favoring other cities or founded colonies with less restrictions and granting them exceptions to the rules that the others have to follow. Because then we will have set a precedent.

Cavalier said:
The situations here are not the same. For the first, Kymai isn't even a member of the Epulian League and has not agreed to be bound by its laws. Secondly, the plan here is not founding a new colony but rather moving as much as possible the existing city of Kymai with its people and institutions and laws and collective identity. If Pylona (for example) wanted to transport itself in more or less its entirety across the Adriatic for whatever reason, that would not be founding a new colony. And while a precedent might be set, I do not think it onerous; some leeway in convincing established colonies presently outside the League to join the League, by giving them exemption from the Linean laws, may be necessary to coax over Kerkyra's former colonies as well.

Should we tell Epidauros that no, they are going to have to accept as citizens anyone who comes in for the next two decades as citizens? They would spit in our faces and rightly so.

I never stated nor claimed that Kymai was a member of the Epulian League. However, considering their likely geographic location, as well as previous discussion, it almost seems like a foregone conclusion that the New Kymai would eventually become a member of the Epulian League. If our goal is to later admit New Kymai into the Epulian League later down the line, I think it would a be very poor start if we started off doing so by exempting them from one of our recently passed laws.

As to your second point, while the settlement we are founding is not a traditional Greek colony in the traditional sense of the word, as the Kymaians are not metics or poor citizens of ours, the rest of the endeavor is similar enough as we are still founding a new settlement with settlers who do not wish to be part of our own city.

As for your example with Epidaurous, and other established colonies as a precedent, looking at the Linean Laws, the premise you use is not correct:

Cetashwayo said:
Passed by the ekklesia 352 OL and named after their main advocate, Epiktetos Linos. For the first twenty-four years after a colony's foundation by the Epulian League, that colony, as a member of the Epulian League, will grant any Hellene willing to settle there a parcel of land and citizenship. In Eretria this passage is actually subsidized for poor citizens or Metics. The founding of colonies is centrally controlled by Eretria Eskhata.

If we are trying to induct already established colonies into the Epulian League, then by the letter of the law their settlements would not be bound by the Linean laws, in the sense that they are not colonies founded by the Epulian League, and thus wouldn't have to grant other Hellenes the right to settle there as citizens. So I find your point moot.

Secretariat · Jul 2, 2019

Kipeci said:
Providing them the exceptions means that the Metic pressure is not resolved (because only the mother city or close relatives can settle it with their own spare populace, not the whole league) which potentially ends up in ideal harbors being snapped up by tiny cities that cannot provide them enough of an initial colonist base to be a reasonable city. Sort of like how Brention is neutered as a port because a small population of the Messapii hold it and we won't let any Greeks settle there, and they are poorly suited to gain the full benefit of Hellenic maritime trade compared to actual Hellenes.

They will be tiny cities that are controlled by Eretria through the League, though. Given time, they'll grow; and while they're there, they show the League flag and serve as visible outposts of our sphere of influence. If we're pursuing an Adriatic strategy, we want to secure these points before others do, especially given our window of opportunity while Corinth is otherwise occupied.

EDIT:

Japanime said:
If we are trying to induct already established colonies into the Epulian League, then by the letter of the law their settlements would not be bound by the Linean laws, in the sense that they are not colonies founded by the Epulian League, and thus wouldn't have to grant other Hellenes the right to settle there as citizens. So I find your point moot.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that Cetash's point isn't... illustrative of his own thinking?

kilopi505 · Jul 2, 2019

Simon_Jester said:
Leukos the Accountant:

"Speaking as one of those thus honored, I don't want to go to Kymai this year. Maybe next year."

"That said, I must praise you, Hermesdora, for your voice is like unto thunderous Stentor, herald of the Achaeans in the works of immortal Homer! Truly, you are the most bull-throated of the Eretrians this day. Your voice, large in its size, has shaken the very foundations of the city! Perhaps literally."

[nods respectfully]

*Grins*

*Starts patting his damaged decorated helmet, whose top has broken off*

Wonderful. Oh little helmet, it is wonderful to discover you can still serve in peace now that you can't serve in war.

From now on I shall call you 'The Speaking Helmet'

Cetashwayo · Jul 2, 2019

Also in part I extended voting out since I felt bad; there was an eighteen minute downtime of SV during the hour left. So a day seems fair.

Let me make a few things clear in the current discussion.

1. It is possible to make Nea Kymai's foundation legally acceptable with the letter of the league laws even if it isn't bound by those laws, if it is argued that Nea Kymai is a continuation of the previous city.
2. It is however, obviously against the spirit of the law.
3. A "Nea Kymai", as its provisional name is for now, would most likely join the Epulian League for mutual protection and gratitude to Eretria.
4. A Nea Kymai that is not bound by Linean laws would likely bar Epulians and other foreigners from owning land, and would be less likely to adopt Eretrian cultural norms and institutions.
5. However, despite Linos' fears, it is possible, as Eupraxis and Mnemnon might counter, that ties will naturally grow from cooperation.
6. Your decisions can close and open potential routes. Think of the Kymai decisions as a branching path. If you choose the maximal path, you will get options to deal with the issues that comes with, while the more moderate path will have its own issues and options. Each has advantages and people have already highlighted some: prestige and more manpower for the former and more cohesion and closer ties in the latter. But as the paths branch you'll get new choices based off those basics. I said this was a rescue quest chain, and I meant it.
7. The inner Epulian League is lukewarm on the whole Kymai situation but there are some in the league who see the potential of a large Nea Kymai as a counterweight to Eretria's complete dominance of the league, while others see it as a threat to the status quo or foreign interloper. Still others see it as an opportunity to greatly enlarge the league as a whole and bring safety to the central Adriatic by gaining such a large manpower boon in that trade region, potentially transforming trade networks across the Adriatic.

Kipeci · Jul 2, 2019

Secretariat said:
They will be tiny cities that are controlled by Eretria through the League, though. Given time, they'll grow; and while they're there, they show the League flag and serve as visible outposts of our sphere of influence. If we're pursuing an Adriatic strategy, we want to secure these points before others do, especially given our window of opportunity while Corinth is otherwise occupied.

We voted collectively for settling small numbers of places with massive immigration because the scattershot approach creates a lot of fledgling colonies with not much heft that may easily be exterminated if they upset the local barbaroi. Tiny Ankon is on a path to start causing troubles with the Picentini with its expansionism down the line, which is fine if we're able to build it up into a relatively strong city and can support it without much distraction elsewhere in the meantime; if however we are putting out fires all across the Adriatic that a bunch of tiny colonies may cause by settling at vital points without having the numbers to defend themselves, we're more likely to lose a good number of them in the meantime- and, bear in mind, presenting enough of a threat that barbaroi need to band together into increasingly well-organized states to oppose us as well as providing insights into our cultural and military advancements with organized if small cities nearby to model themselves after makes it much harder to re-establish. If we can firmly secure the central Adriatic as Epulian turf it will be quite hard for Greeks to trade and colonize past us except by our express permission, so I feel that Greek expansionism at least in the north Adriatic is not something that requires us to proceed there with all possible speed, regardless of whom we may upset.

Cavalier · Jul 2, 2019

"The matter of Kymai has become contentious among all citizens, even those who doubted the wisdom of our venture. We should look at our motives to resolve this deadlock. Arktos Arkadios pushed for this motion above all citizens out of philia. He saw an opportunity to rescue citizens of a daughter-city of Eretria and to cement bonds between Hellenes in the foreign land of Italia to all our advantage. These motives are noble and idealistic, not pragmatic. Many who joined his call did so for the same reasoning. We did not seek advantage by coming to the aid of Kymai but rather acted against our interests. We have many unresolved issues at home to look to, after all. Even to gain a unseemly subservient colony in the Adriatic could not make up for the expenses and efforts we are putting into this matter.

But consider the glory of the measure! Should we rescue and aid to relocate thousands of citizens of Kymai we will have accomplished a task almost unknown among Hellenes save by our own arrival. The more generous and magnificent our attitude and the more citizens we rescue, the greater the impact of our action on other Hellenes. Kleos, for our polis, not just for one man, is worth more than what we have expended and could expend in this measure.

As for the concerns expressed regarding our League, I think they are misplaced. The proxenoi of the League cities have not protested our actions. The synedrion of the League has not vetoed or so far as I am aware even discussed our actions. They cannot help but be impressed, or not, by the results of our actions and that will determine their attitude. If they see us treat Kymai with generosity and benevolence they will be reassured that will treat them just as well. If we instead act only to further our own advantage in this action they will see the League, even as we use its rules to impose our will upon Kymai, as a mere instrument of our aggrandizement. Further the Linean Laws only apply to colonies established by the Epulian League; if certain members of the Assembly will not accept the logic that the situation with Kymai does not apply based on the circumstances involved, then we may consider the founding a founding of Kymai and not of the Epulian League. That would answer any question of 'precedents' that might be invoked- though in any case we would be capable of accepting or dismissing such precedent as we see fit.

The danger pointed to by Linos is rather that a new Kymai in the Adriatic would be powerful enough to challenge us. He seeks to forestall this threat by diluting the identity of Kymai with many new settlers. This is certainly to our advantage, but it is not generous. It is cynical and self-interested and will be seen by others as such. This was not in the spirit according to which the Assembly embarked on this venture. I believe it is self-defeating as well. For we would compromise the true gain we could expect, the renown among our fellow Hellenes and perhaps even a strengthening of the fellow-feeling between Hellenes needed to resist the barbaroi of this dangerous land, in favor of trying to recoup spent efforts and money. That Eretria might become a danger did not stop Taras from sending grain and fighting along side our ancestors after the arrival, even if we were estranged from them for a long time by the machinations of Kerkyra. Imagine had they thought in such terms at the arrival! How many men in this assembly might have had their fathers and grandfathers starve to death ere they were sired?

An exemption is justified by the circumstances of this venture. Kymai is not ungrateful to ask. When our ancestors fled to Italia with the Mede having sacked our home, they rebuilt it as Eretria Eskhata. We should not deny a similar opportunity to Kymai. And if we aid them I believe the gods will smile upon our city for having done a kind and hospitable gesture, and that Hellenes will see it for what it was. Such rewards are of far greater worth than can be measured in talents. And should any man fear that this new Kymai should become a threat they should remember the fallibility of the wisest men attempting to see the future even with the aid of Oracles and prophecy. In the time that men are alloted and may foresee clearly, generosity of spirit and grandness of our charity will serve better than a miserly attempt to serve our interests in the misfortune of others.

So Phokion Aristedeis urges his fellow citizens to be generous to Kymai and not impose the Linean Laws upon them as a precondition for our aid."

Japanime · Jul 2, 2019

Cetashwayo said:
3. A "Nea Kymai", as its provisional name is for now, would most likely join the Epulian League for mutual protection and gratitude to Eretria.

So is Nea Kymai assured to join the Epulian League if we successfully conduct the rescue mission? Even if we make them adhere to the Linean Laws?

Cetashwayo said:
4. A Nea Kymai that is not bound by Linean laws would likely bar Epulians and other foreigners from owning land, and would be less likely to adopt Eretrian cultural norms and institutions.

This is my main contention with giving the Kymaians an exception.

I prefer the idea of forming an Epulian League that is more than just a mutual protection pact made out of self-interest, but instead is also held together through mutual shared cultural norms and institutions. While I have no issue relying on Eretrian hard power to force our aims, I would prefer it if we didn't need to act like Athenai or Sparta in relation to their League members. To me, giving the Kymaians an exception here is not really an issue of the present troubles it could cause us, but instead a hit towards the idea of Epulian unity and identify later on within our league.

Cetashwayo said:
Each has advantages and people have already highlighted some: prestige and more manpower for the former and more cohesion and closer ties in the latter.

I would much rather have cohesion and closer ties, as while it wouldn't give us a hard power advantage that more manpower would, in terms of League levies and League dues from Nea Kymai, it would give us a greater chance of having the whole of the League united behind us in times of crisis. What point is there in having more manpower when there is a chance for the erosion in cohesion to lead to the League overturning our veto and now giving us any levies at all?

Crazy7s1 · Jul 2, 2019

[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

Cavalier · Jul 2, 2019

Cetashwayo said:
Also in part I extended voting out since I felt bad; there was an eighteen minute downtime of SV during the hour left. So a day seems fair.

Let me make a few things clear in the current discussion.

1. It is possible to make Nea Kymai's foundation legally acceptable with the letter of the league laws even if it isn't bound by those laws, if it is argued that Nea Kymai is a continuation of the previous city.
2. It is however, obviously against the spirit of the law.
3. A "Nea Kymai", as its provisional name is for now, would most likely join the Epulian League for mutual protection and gratitude to Eretria.
4. A Nea Kymai that is not bound by Linean laws would likely bar Epulians and other foreigners from owning land, and would be less likely to adopt Eretrian cultural norms and institutions.
5. However, despite Linos' fears, it is possible, as Eupraxis and Mnemnon might counter, that ties will naturally grow from cooperation.
6. Your decisions can close and open potential routes. Think of the Kymai decisions as a branching path. If you choose the maximal path, you will get options to deal with the issues that comes with, while the more moderate path will have its own issues and options. Each has advantages and people have already highlighted some: prestige and more manpower for the former and more cohesion and closer ties in the latter. But as the paths branch you'll get new choices based off those basics. I said this was a rescue quest chain, and I meant it.
7. The inner Epulian League is lukewarm on the whole Kymai situation but there are some in the league who see the potential of a large Nea Kymai as a counterweight to Eretria's complete dominance of the league, while others see it as a threat to the status quo or foreign interloper. Still others see it as an opportunity to greatly enlarge the league as a whole and bring safety to the central Adriatic by gaining such a large manpower boon in that trade region, potentially transforming trade networks across the Adriatic.

What about treating Nea Kymai as a colony founded by Kymai rather than the League which then subsequently happens to join the League? Or is that just part of the end-run around the Linean Laws?

Cetashwayo · Jul 2, 2019

Japanime said:
So is Nea Kymai assured to join the Epulian League if we successfully conduct the rescue mission? Even if we make them adhere to the Linean Laws?

The ones who come over are those willing to adhere to it, so yes.

Japanime said:
I would much rather have cohesion and closer ties, as while it wouldn't give us a hard power advantage that more manpower would, in terms of League levies and League dues from Nea Kymai, it would give us a greater chance of having the whole of the League united behind us in times of crisis. What point is there in having more manpower when there is a chance for the erosion in cohesion to lead to the League overturning our veto and now giving us any levies at all?

Manpower is assured and a chance for erosion in cohesion is a chance. You take a risk and use your judgment, and then either decide it's worth it or it's not, and choose accordingly.

Cavalier said:
What about treating Nea Kymai as a colony founded by Kymai rather than the League which then subsequently happens to join the League? Or is that just part of the end-run around the Linean Laws?

It's a possibility, but Ankon existed before the Linean Laws but was made to follow them anyway. It's an awkward question either way but one resolvable legally, even if the political implications don't go away.

Secretariat · Jul 2, 2019

Kipeci said:
We voted collectively for settling small numbers of places with massive immigration because the scattershot approach creates a lot of fledgling colonies with not much heft that may easily be exterminated if they upset the local barbaroi. Tiny Ankon is on a path to start causing troubles with the Picentini with its expansionism down the line, which is fine if we're able to build it up into a relatively strong city and can support it without much distraction elsewhere in the meantime; if however we are putting out fires all across the Adriatic that a bunch of tiny colonies may cause by settling at vital points without having the numbers to defend themselves, we're more likely to lose a good number of them in the meantime- and, bear in mind, presenting enough of a threat that barbaroi need to band together into increasingly well-organized states to oppose us as well as providing insights into our cultural and military advancements with organized if small cities nearby to model themselves after makes it much harder to re-establish. If we can firmly secure the central Adriatic as Epulian turf it will be quite hard for Greeks to trade and colonize past us except by our express permission, so I feel that Greek expansionism at least in the north Adriatic is not something that requires us to proceed there with all possible speed, regardless of whom we may upset.

I'm not clear on why these are bad things.

They are potential challenges, absolutely -- but, like the Linean laws, each of these challenges is best addressed by a strengthening of League institutions, including collective defense agreements; an increase in communal commitments; and the development of a common identity through collective struggle.

That's the endgame we're looking for, is it not?

Simon_Jester · Jul 2, 2019

Japanime said:
So essentially, we're flip flopping then? As the laws we just passed the Linean Laws for colonization, are meaningless.

They are laws FOR COLONIZATION. The point here is that Kymai is not, in the normal sense, a "colony." It is not a scattered collection of individuals from (potentially) all over the Hellenic world creating a new polis out of nothing. It is a polis that, being trapped in an untenable location, has been offered a chance to relocate.

If we wanted to offer the Kymaians the opportunity to settle in our existing colonies, or even to found a new colony on the site we've planned for them ourselves and say 'oh hey you can come here,' we wouldn't be engaged in large scale evacuation planning. That's the default. As @Cetashwayo pointed out, the Kymaians already have the option to evacuate, and if we just wanted to offer them places in our colonies... well, under the Linean Laws we can do exactly that since we have several colonies they could settle in and become citizens.

But in that case, while some number of Kymaians would survive, the city of Kymai would cease to exist.

What we are doing here that is special and requires so much extra effort on our own part is to not just save some number of Kymaians as the population of the city scatters to the four winds, but rather to save Kymai itself.

Which means that we cannot treat Kymai as a new city growing from a seed. No, it is a transplant. You treat a transplant differently from a fresh seed.

As @Cavalier pointed out, we wouldn't get far trying to bring new pre-existing cities into the Epulian League if we insisted that on joining the League, all of them were subject to the Linean Laws and had to accept new immigrants as citizens for a period of 20 years or so. Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros would never stand for such, and we're hoping to recruit them into the League here and now, as you may recall.

Our newly founded colonies will know that they are not transplants of an existing polis from one place to another place. They know the Linean Laws exist primarily to ensure that the new colonial poli we found can grow and flourish, and that it makes sense for the first generation to be an "open" period of defining the colony's new civic identity.

But Kymai already has a civic identity. We would not be enabling newcomers to define a new identity by enforcing the Linean Laws on them. We'd be destroying the old one.

Furthermore, what point is there in having more colonies if the other Epulian League cities do not feel connected to Eretria, and start to take a page from Kymai?

It's already well known that unlike the other Hellenic Leagues we aren't exactly as culturally united as the rest of them, so undermining the cultural identity of the Epulian League so early before we have already established what it means to be Epulian is a mistake in my eyes.

We'll be working on that by building up our culture. Eretria will still be by far the largest and most powerful city of the League, the center of its trade, the repository of its wealth, and the guarantor of its security. New Kymai will not be a meaningful rival any time in the foreseeable future, regardless of whether we deliberately try to dilute and destroy their civic identity by forcing them to accept Epulian colonists as 'Nea Kymai' citizens for a few decades.

Japanime said:
So is Nea Kymai assured to join the Epulian League if we successfully conduct the rescue mission? Even if we make them adhere to the Linean Laws?

"Assured?"

I mean, this is starting to sound like us saying to the Kymaians "we'll let you become members of our league as long as you agree to sell yourselves into servitude to us." This reminds me of the deal we've given to the forcibly relocated citizens of Lykai after that city was destroyed by the peace agreement between us and Taras.

We're helping them, not subjugating them.

This is my main contention with giving the Kymaians an exception.

I prefer the idea of forming an Epulian League that is more than just a mutual protection pact made out of self-interest, but instead is also held together through mutual shared cultural norms and institutions. While I have no issue relying on Eretrian hard power to force our aims, I would prefer it if we didn't need to act like Athenai or Sparta in relation to their League members. To me, giving the Kymaians an exception here is not really an issue of the present troubles it could cause us, but instead a hit towards the idea of Epulian unity and identify later on within our league.

I mean, the big problematic thing about the way Athens and Sparta treated their leagues is that the leagues were blatantly extractive- that membership in the leagues was meant to do whatever would benefit Athens or Sparta, even if it was costly and oppressive to the member cities.

Trying to force League membership on Kymai, after forcing them to accept a wave of new non-Kymaian colonists for twenty years in order to dilute their identity as an independent polis, is exactly the kind of thing Athens or Sparta might do to a polis they deigned to resettle. It would be a very obvious move to weaken the new polis and make it more subservient to Eretria.

And that will undermine any attempt to bind together the Eretrian League through ties stronger than self-interest. Because the other League cities will look at this, and know that Eretria is deliberately clipping the wings of a potential rival for power within the League, and that it's willing to use the laws of the League as a tool to weaken a city that might otherwise grow to rival it. That's going to undermine trust in the shared institutions of the Eretrian League.

Japanime · Jul 2, 2019

Simon_Jester said:
They are laws FOR COLONIZATION. The point here is that Kymai is not, in the normal sense, a "colony."

Not by the letter of the Law, by the spirit of the law is rather clear:

Cetashwayo said:
1. It is possible to make Nea Kymai's foundation legally acceptable with the letter of the league laws even if it isn't bound by those laws, if it is argued that Nea Kymai is a continuation of the previous city.
2. It is however, obviously against the spirit of the law.

Simon_Jester said:
Trying to force League membership on Kymai, after forcing them to accept a wave of new non-Kymaian colonists for twenty years in order to dilute their identity as an independent polis, is exactly the kind of thing Athens or Sparta might do to a polis they deigned to resettle. It would be a very obvious move to weaken the new polis and make it more subservient to Eretria.

That is a false dichotomy we are not forcing Kymai to take League membership:

Cetashwayo said:
The ones who come over are those willing to adhere to it, so yes.

Those who choose to come with us would be willing to take League membership and still be grateful. The only difference here is that less people would come with us if we tell them that they would have to abide by the Linean Laws.

Secretariat · Jul 2, 2019

Japanime said:
Those who choose to come with us would be willing to take League membership and still be grateful. The only difference here is that less people would come with us if we tell them that they would have to abide by the Linean Laws.

The difference here is the low-emigration path, where we get a loyal League member of approximately 2000 people or less; and a high-emigration path, where we can potentially get a loyal League member of approximately 12000 people or more.

Japanime · Jul 2, 2019

Simon_Jester said:
As @Cavalier pointed out, we wouldn't get far trying to bring new pre-existing cities into the Epulian League if we insisted that on joining the League, all of them were subject to the Linean Laws and had to accept new immigrants as citizens for a period of 20 years or so. Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros would never stand for such, and we're hoping to recruit them into the League here and now, as you may recall.

Our newly founded colonies will know that they are not transplants of an existing polis from one place to another place. They know the Linean Laws exist primarily to ensure that the new colonial poli we found can grow and flourish, and that it makes sense for the first generation to be an "open" period of defining the colony's new civic identity.

But Kymai already has a civic identity. We would not be enabling newcomers to define a new identity by enforcing the Linean Laws on them. We'd be destroying the old one.

Except, by the Letter and Spirit of the Law, the pre-existing cities such as Epidauros would not be bound by Linean Laws in respects to having to accept citizens within their lands. Ankon was included in the Linean Laws as it was a recent colony founded by the Epulian League. The cities of Melaina Kerkya and Epidauros on the other hand are already existing cities that were founded by another polis in the form of Kerkyra, so your example and comparison falls completely flat here.

So even if we find a way to legally finesse our way into getting the Kymaians out of the Linean Laws, everyone would still know that it was in contravention of the spirit of the law.

Secretariat said:
The difference here is the low-emigration path, where we get a loyal League member of approximately 2000 people or less; and a high-emigration path, where we can potentially get a loyal League member of approximately 12000 people or more.

You do know that there is a middle ground right, that this is not the end all and be all of the choices regarding Kymai and the many branches we could take on it? And that your 12,000 figure is mere conjecture?

Karugus · Jul 2, 2019

Secretariat said:
The difference here is the low-emigration path, where we get a loyal League member of approximately 2000 people or less; and a high-emigration path, where we can potentially get a loyal League member of approximately 12000 people or more.

Why do you think this is the final tally? That despite the option to not bind Kymai to the Linean Laws offering less than the sum of their freemen, it's the option that offers 12000 people, whereas there's nothing we can do to ameliorate the adverse reaction to the Linean Laws?

This is step one of a branching path, to assume one path allows for numerous steps and the other doesn't is absurdly presumptuous.

This is a simple question blown stupidly out of proportion- which do you value more; manpower for our league as a power, or cohesion for our league as a nation? Dreams of Epulian nationhood versus dreams of Adriatic hegemony. I can understand the appeal in transplanting Kymai, materially and idealistically and the belief we can reap the rewards of both paths with cunning, diligence and luck. But I find the appeal of nationhood far too compelling to risk.

Secretariat · Jul 2, 2019

Japanime said:
You do know that there is a middle ground right, that this is not the end all and be all of the choices regarding Kymai and the many branches we could take on it? And that your 12,000 figure is mere conjecture?

Per Cetash,

Cetashwayo said:
Think of the Kymai decisions as a branching path. If you choose the maximal path, you will get options to deal with the issues that comes with, while the more moderate path will have its own issues and options. Each has advantages and people have already highlighted some: prestige and more manpower for the former and more cohesion and closer ties in the latter. But as the paths branch you'll get new choices based off those basics. I said this was a rescue quest chain, and I meant it.

12,000 people total is an approximation, based off the 4000-plus freemen number Cetash mentioned as the best-case outcome of the maximal path. It's a pretty robust approximation -- it's crude and not perfect, but the assumptions are clearly stated and you can use your best judgement to evaluate its correctness.

We know, from WOG, that the best outcome to this event chain is the one where the most people relocate. Not giving Kymai its own laws locks us off the branch containing the maximal path, by definition.

Japanime · Jul 2, 2019

Simon_Jester said:
We'll be working on that by building up our culture. Eretria will still be by far the largest and most powerful city of the League, the center of its trade, the repository of its wealth, and the guarantor of its security. New Kymai will not be a meaningful rival any time in the foreseeable future, regardless of whether we deliberately try to dilute and destroy their civic identity by forcing them to accept Epulian colonists as 'Nea Kymai' citizens for a few decades.

I don't dispute any of that. None of my concerns that I've stated have ever been about New Kymai being a rival to us as I always assumed we would try to culturally and diplomatically integrate them anyways. My main concern is this:

Cetashwayo said:
He'd prefer a mixed empire of Epulians stretching across the Adriatic, not an exception for Kymai that others can stretch in the future so that only their own exclusive clique of colonists can gain land and citizenship

My fear is that in the far future, no matter how much we try to build our culture up, which you have to admit for a League culture is rather meager at best, that the self-interest of the other Epulian League members would cause them to grow distant from us as they try to play the same game Kymai will be playing at. Whereas instead of having one singular Epulian identify which we've build up within them, we will instead have that be chipped away as the other Epulian League cities will first and foremost pursue policies that are not cohesive and more self-interested.

Simon_Jester said:
I mean, this is starting to sound like us saying to the Kymaians "we'll let you become members of our league as long as you agree to sell yourselves into servitude to us." This reminds me of the deal we've given to the forcibly relocated citizens of Lykai after that city was destroyed by the peace agreement between us and Taras.

We're helping them, not subjugating them.

Except that is not how this works at all. We're not giving the Kymaians an ultimatum of "accept our laws or stay stuck here, trapped", we're telling them that we will apply the Linean Laws to them, and that those that still want to join us can come, while those who don't want to come with us don't have to. They have a choice in the matter here.

Cetashwayo said:
The ones who come over are those willing to adhere to it, so yes.

For if we look at what has been said, it can be implied that there are those who are willing to come over and still be grateful to us for saving them. While the rest just wouldn't come over at all.

Secretariat said:
Per Cetash,

12,000 people total is an approximation, based off the 4000-plus freemen number Cetash mentioned as the best-case outcome of the maximal path. It's a pretty robust approximation -- it's crude and not perfect, but the assumptions are clearly stated and you can use your best judgement to evaluate its correctness.

We know, from WOG, that the best outcome to this event chain is the one where the most people relocate. Not giving Kymai its own laws locks us off the branch containing the maximal path, by definition.

Even so, just because we may end up not taking the most generous course of action with Kymai, thus granting us the maximal path, that does not automatically lock us into the most minimal path by default as your earlier post seemed to suggest. We could still choose actions after this that allow us to be generous to them.

So to use your earlier phrase, if we make the right choices we could still end up with a Loyal League member that has 8,000 people, which is in my opinion worth it for the price of not setting a precedent that will encourage only self-interest by the rest of the Epulian League.

Simon_Jester · Jul 2, 2019

Japanime said:
Except, by the Letter and Spirit of the Law, the pre-existing cities such as Epidauros would not be bound by Linean Laws in respects to having to accept citizens within their lands. Ankon was included in the Linean Laws as it was a recent colony founded by the Epulian League. The cities of Melaina Kerkya and Epidauros on the other hand are already existing cities that were founded by another polis in the form of Kerkyra, so your example and comparison falls completely flat here.

So even if we find a way to legally finesse our way into getting the Kymaians out of the Linean Laws, everyone would still know that it was in contravention of the spirit of the law.

There are two ways to establish strong institutions.

One is "iron law," the other is "mutual trust." Establishing a law and forcing it on everyone, uniformly and without exception, does have the effect of getting others to know that the law is consistent.

The problem is that it does not predispose people to trust the controller of that law. Especially not in a case like this, where it's obvious how forcing the Linean Law on Kymai benefits Eretria at Kymai's expense, at a time when the Kymaians are weak and vulnerable and at our mercy.

Giving Kymai an exception to the Linean Law will give future generations of Kymaians and of the League cities in general reason to think that Eretria cares more about saving and protecting the cities of the League than it does about its own power and primacy in the League. It is an act of magnificence, in other words- an act that distributes goods to the greater community, rather than hoarding them to oneself, when others need them more.

Demonstrating that we are implacable in enforcement of a pre-existing law when it benefits us anyway will not do as much to create a strong pro-League sentiment among the League cities, as demonstrating that we are capable of making exceptions when on an errand of mercy, out of respect for the needs of the desperate.

Karugus said:
Why do you think this is the final tally? That despite the option to not bind Kymai to the Linean Laws offering less than the sum of their freemen, it's the option that offers 12000 people, whereas there's nothing we can do to ameliorate the adverse reaction to the Linean Laws?

This is step one of a branching path, to assume one path allows for numerous steps and the other doesn't is absurdly presumptuous.

This is a simple question blown stupidly out of proportion- which do you value more; manpower for our league as a state, or cohesion for our league as a nation? Dreams of Epulian nationhood versus dreams of Adriatic hegemony. I can understand the appeal in transplanting Kymai, materially and idealistically and the belief we can reap the rewards of both paths with cunning, diligence and luck. But I find the appeal of nationhood far too compelling to risk.

Engaging in a calculated decision to marginalize a polis that is dependent on our mercy for survival, in an attempt to "build a nation," is unlikely to provide a strong foundation for a nation.

The League city-states will remember this, and know that if they find themselves utterly dependent on Eretria, Eretria is likely to extract high prices and exploit the disaster to break them more fully to Eretria's will. Because that is precisely what we are doing to Kymai.

skaro · Jul 2, 2019

[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

This is pretty intense vote,I think I will vote with my heart on this time.What is more important ?

Kipeci · Jul 2, 2019

Cavalier said:
"The matter of Kymai has become contentious among all citizens, even those who doubted the wisdom of our venture. We should look at our motives to resolve this deadlock. Arktos Arkadios pushed for this motion above all citizens out of philia. He saw an opportunity to rescue citizens of a daughter-city of Eretria and to cement bonds between Hellenes in the foreign land of Italia to all our advantage. These motives are noble and idealistic, not pragmatic. Many who joined his call did so for the same reasoning. We did not seek advantage by coming to the aid of Kymai but rather acted against our interests. We have many unresolved issues at home to look to, after all. Even to gain a unseemly subservient colony in the Adriatic could not make up for the expenses and efforts we are putting into this matter.

But consider the glory of the measure! Should we rescue and aid to relocate thousands of citizens of Kymai we will have accomplished a task almost unknown among Hellenes save by our own arrival. The more generous and magnificent our attitude and the more citizens we rescue, the greater the impact of our action on other Hellenes. Kleos, for our polis, not just for one man, is worth more than what we have expended and could expend in this measure.

As for the concerns expressed regarding our League, I think they are misplaced. The proxenoi of the League cities have not protested our actions. The synedrion of the League has not vetoed or so far as I am aware even discussed our actions. They cannot help but be impressed, or not, by the results of our actions and that will determine their attitude. If they see us treat Kymai with generosity and benevolence they will be reassured that will treat them just as well. If we instead act only to further our own advantage in this action they will see the League, even as we use its rules to impose our will upon Kymai, as a mere instrument of our aggrandizement. Further the Linean Laws only apply to colonies established by the Epulian League; if certain members of the Assembly will not accept the logic that the situation with Kymai does not apply based on the circumstances involved, then we may consider the founding a founding of Kymai and not of the Epulian League. That would answer any question of 'precedents' that might be invoked- though in any case we would be capable of accepting or dismissing such precedent as we see fit.

The danger pointed to by Linos is rather that a new Kymai in the Adriatic would be powerful enough to challenge us. He seeks to forestall this threat by diluting the identity of Kymai with many new settlers. This is certainly to our advantage, but it is not generous. It is cynical and self-interested and will be seen by others as such. This was not in the spirit according to which the Assembly embarked on this venture. I believe it is self-defeating as well. For we would compromise the true gain we could expect, the renown among our fellow Hellenes and perhaps even a strengthening of the fellow-feeling between Hellenes needed to resist the barbaroi of this dangerous land, in favor of trying to recoup spent efforts and money. That Eretria might become a danger did not stop Taras from sending grain and fighting along side our ancestors after the arrival, even if we were estranged from them for a long time by the machinations of Kerkyra. Imagine had they thought in such terms at the arrival! How many men in this assembly might have had their fathers and grandfathers starve to death ere they were sired?

An exemption is justified by the circumstances of this venture. Kymai is not ungrateful to ask. When our ancestors fled to Italia with the Mede having sacked our home, they rebuilt it as Eretria Eskhata. We should not deny a similar opportunity to Kymai. And if we aid them I believe the gods will smile upon our city for having done a kind and hospitable gesture, and that Hellenes will see it for what it was. Such rewards are of far greater worth than can be measured in talents. And should any man fear that this new Kymai should become a threat they should remember the fallibility of the wisest men attempting to see the future even with the aid of Oracles and prophecy. In the time that men are alloted and may foresee clearly, generosity of spirit and grandness of our charity will serve better than a miserly attempt to serve our interests in the misfortune of others.

So Phokion Aristedeis urges his fellow citizens to be generous to Kymai and not impose the Linean Laws upon them as a precondition for our aid."

"We may yet further magnify the glory. Here, let us open our Sacred Treasury for them, another unheard of generosity that would echo among the Hellenes. Let us suspend the work on our harbor and rather spend it in labor to build a great city of Illyria, so that the people of Kymai have not a barbarian waste to develop of their own toil, but move to a fair and gleaming city. This would be an act unique of the world, a glorious extravagance that would excel any feat of the Medes! How proud we would be, for a time.

But, it is not pride and glory alone that feeds our people. There must be a limit to our magnificence, ere we find ourselves starving and begging at the feet of those we have impoverished ourselves in service to. It is not only the glory we accrue that we should concern ourselves with, but the cost at which that glory is purchased. Having bought the people of Kymai their freedom from groaning under a barbarian yoke, their passage across the waves, their food, their lodging, the land upon which they will settle- is it truly excessive to ask that they respect the wise laws of Linos, that a handful of our number may settle among them? That our citizens and metics through whose thrift a new life and liberty has been made possible for Kymaians might own some scrap of the land their efforts have purchased? Thus states Kipekos."

Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

Knight of Futility

Lord of Ten Thousand Years

Lord of Ten Thousand Years

Knight of Futility

Excellent

Knight of Futility

Lord of Ten Thousand Years