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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Random Member said:
Dareios: "Hypocrite that you are! You claim to wish to save as many of them as we can, yet neither of the two proposed solutions truly save 'the greatest amount of people possible'. So why are there no proposals that would allow us to save yet even more Kymaians? Clearly it must be because 'saving the greatest number of people possible'is not truly our aim here."
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Hypocrite? What would you propose then? Shall we invade the city and place them all in irons? We take as many as are willing to go. Shall we force them to abandon their home? A fools errand! Go then, take up your spear and march upon the city and see what happens. They are far from us, and we already expend much silver moving them of their own free will. How much more silver will we expend forcing them to leave their homes at the point of a spear? To what end? To place an enemy nearest to us? No!

Either they come willingly, or not at all. I will not doom all of the citizens of Kymai attempting to force the unwilling to flee their doomed city. To force all to flee is to lose them all to the cruel and wicked yoke of the Barbaroi.

To take all, is to lose all.
 
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[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].



I hold my head in contempt for Metic but if this is fail then that mean assembly is fail and I can't tolerate that.
 
skaro said:
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].



I hold my head in contempt for Metic but if this is fail then that mean assembly is fail and I can't tolerate that.
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Brother, i am saddened that I failed to convince you in trying to save as many Kymaians as possible, what can i say for you to change your mind?
 
Godwinson said:
This entire approach of "But what do I get out of this?!" is directly undermining the prestige and soft-power benefits that this quest would have brought us.
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It should be noted that the proposal to let the Kymaians have their own laws appears to be winning over the "force the Linean Law on them" proposal. Unless I misread that tally.

Star said:
If we wish to invite other polis in the Leauge we must show them that they will be respected there and ignoring the rules of entire Leauge for our own wishes is no way to do it.
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So the best way to convince a future polis that they will be respected after being accepted into the Eretrian League...

...Is to take this polis, Kymai, that is being invited into the League...

...and force it to accept mass migration of every Tom, Dick, and Harry who wants to join up as citizens, while in the process paving over a lot of the existing Kymaian institutions.

I'm not seeing it, myself.

The Linean Laws were only ever conceptualized in terms of colonies we found. Like, that was all we were even thinking about.

Ankon was an edge case in that it predated the Linean law, but it was still in every sense a colony budded off of Eretria.

Obviously we were never going to apply the Linean Law to pre-existing Greek city-states like Melaina Kerkyra.

Kymai occupies a weird middle ground between Ankon and Melaina Kerkyra. On the one hand, the city is new to the Adriatic, it is very much being built from the literal ground up as a new city in our League. But on the other hand, the city is not new demographically. It has an established population and culture and has firmed up the divide between citizen and non-citizen that makes a Greek polis what it is.

In a very profound sense, one made all the more profound by the fact that Greek cities are city-states, nations unto themselves along with being cities in the geographic sense...

Well, moving a city is not the same as founding a city.

...

In essence, this vote is about whether we are offering the Kymaians a chance to move their city/mini-nation to a new and safer location, or whether we are offering individual survivors of the dying Kymai a chance to abandon the collapsing city/mini-nation and join a new one under our aegis.

kilopi505 said:
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].

I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the Psiloi, have been convinced by the reasoning of other citizens on the necessity of having Nea-Kymai follow the same laws as the rest of the Epulian League. As such, I now revote my stance on Kymai!



Err...I cooked something up. Tell me if it's ok or if I need to reword it.

Also I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the Psiloi, propose the following motion to the citizens of Eretria Eschate!

[X] USER MOTION: Eretria shall send all the Citizens who had been given rewards for their eloquent speeches and arguments to Kymai for the sole mission of convincing the Kymaians, whether citizen or metic, of the benefits of the Linean Law as it would apply to their new site in the Adriatic Sea. They shall emphasize the sheer numbers of freemen they could gain from interested potential citizens if their entire city goes to the Adriatic as one undivided polis because of Kymai's prestige and because of safety in numbers. They shall emphasize that by numbers alone, if they migrate to the Adriatic as an undivided polis and follow the Linean Law they would quickly catapult to one of the three most powerful polis in the Adriatic, after us and Kerkyra. They shall emphasize that if they are metics here in Kymai, in the Adriatic they will be citizens thanks to the Linean Law. Emphasize that in the Adriatic they won't stand alone against non-Hellenes if they were attacked but they would be among friends, since they would be a full member of the Epulian League and friends with non-Hellene allies of the Epulian League because of Eretria Eschate. They shall emphasize that the Sybil of Kymai would be more famous the nearer they are to other Hellenes and Hellenized non-Hellenes, which would bring more money to the polis of Kymai. And most importantly of all, explain and profusely apologize to Kymai that our hands are tied because the Linean Law had been passed by majority vote by the members of the Epulian League and tell them we are willing to support them asking for a reasonable amendment to the Linean Law once they have moved to the Adriatic.

Now, who shall lift my old and small rock!
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Leukos the Accountant:

"Speaking as one of those thus honored, I don't want to go to Kymai this year. Maybe next year."

"That said, I must praise you, Hermesdora, for your voice is like unto thunderous Stentor, herald of the Achaeans in the works of immortal Homer! Truly, you are the most bull-throated of the Eretrians this day. Your voice, large in its size, has shaken the very foundations of the city! Perhaps literally."

[nods respectfully]
 
fasquardon said:
Hm. A while back I did some reading up on Athenian Metic relations. In Athens the Metic population wasn't stable and at about this time Athens was using some fairly heavy-handed laws to keep citizen and metic populations as separate classes. I don't much fancy applying Athenian law in Eretria (to be honest, I find it annoying enough at how very Athenian Eretria is, which I kinda understand, given that our sources are so Athens-biased, but still, nuts to Athens). Also, the Athenian system didn't work. The bulk of the Metic population gained citizenship perhaps during this period or perhaps just after, largely it seems through buying citizenship or just bluffing their way through to becoming established citizens (though this latter approach had some risk, it doesn't seem to have had very much risk).
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I'd be curious to read your sources, they sound interesting, but it sounds like the period you're referring to is the Hellenistic period. Athenai did not sell citizenship during the later classical period and we have records of the citizenship they awarded; it was in the dozens or low hundreds across the entirety of the 4th century BCE until Philip II's victory. Then Athenai lost its independence and its democracy in short order during the early Hellenistic period and never regained a place as a geopolitical actor of any consequence.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Further, I ask that people do not read things that are not there. Linos was concerned about setting a legal precedent, not pushback from the league. Ankon might grumble but the laws are still formative and it is in Eretria's rights to go either way. It was about what it means for the future.
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Can you elaborate a bit on what Linos' fears for the future are here? I was forced to rely on what inferences seemed reasonable to me as all that's explicitly in favor of this vote from the most recent update and your subsequent comments is a single line:
As pointed out by Linos himself in the course of the ekklesia debate, not doing so would create a poor precedent for the other Adriatic cities, and it would also allow the Kymaians to keep a cohesive identity, rather than being subsumed in an Epulian whole.
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If the league cities (current and potential) don't actually care about what Eretria does here and everyone would just see Eretria as being dickish in having Kymai keep to league law instead of it cast in the light of applying the law equally and defending their league rights to send colonists to that harbor, then I see very little reason to continue advocating for this option solely on account of Linos' unexplained hunch. If this is just as Secretariat says and it's some vehicle for trying to force assimilation onto a hard-pressed people and we're going to be seen as jerks for it with the only 'benefits' being that forced assimilation and our league cities thinking twice about asking for rights from us, then I'm not in favor.

I wouldn't expect Linos to be for something publicly seen as a villainous imposition since the character he cultivates seems to be quite generous and merciful, and that's the only reason I haven't immediately flopped. But if him having concerns is all we have to go off of, we should ask if he is willing to explain himself; I don't want to spend any more of my time trying to be a mindreader for him if all the effort does is to get me called out for being off-base.
 
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Kipeci said:
I wouldn't expect Linos to be for something publicly seen as a villainous imposition since the character he cultivates seems to be quite generous and merciful, and that's the only reason I haven't immediately flopped. But if him having concerns is all we have to go off of, we should ask if he is willing to explain himself; I don't want to spend any more of my time trying to be a mindreader for him if all the effort does is to get me called out for being off-base.
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It's not really a villainous imposition, it's an impression that Kymai is going to secure quite a bit of land, and it's going to want to keep that land to itself and its citizens. Linos' colonial laws, however, are meant to encourage mixing of different Epulians together in the colonies and so ensure that any cohesion that emerges is in Eretria's favor, and to relieve land pressure for Eretrians and other Epulians. By granting Kymai the land and not enforcing the Linean laws, you create an entity that could one day be far more hostile to you and doesn't provide as much value in the one realm where the laws are explicitly meant to provide value by creating a release valve for your citizenry. It's a waste, in his eyes, to do all of this negotiation legwork for the sake of charity if that charity isn't benefiting Eretrians all that much.

He'd prefer a mixed empire of Epulians stretching across the Adriatic, not an exception for Kymai that others can stretch in the future so that only their own exclusive clique of colonists can gain land and citizenship, or the creation of a member of the Epulian League which has no reason to maintain common ties with Eretria after the first generation because it doesn't have real familial and cultural ties back "home".
 
So it really boils down to whether our goodwill will last, and what is that worth compared to the value of a culturally homogenous and unified Epulian Empire?

I can't really see the transitory prestige, goodwill, and slight population bumps as more advantageous. It seems like there would be more permanent sources of prestige we can pursue that cleave closer to our interests in creating an Epulian identity. Things like an internationally renowned temple dedicated to the Divine Marriage, a worthy stadium for the Epulian Games that garners respect from all Hellenes.

At the risk of appealing to mad panic- allowing Kymai's sovereignty to trump the Linean Laws threatens the greatest possible innovation therein- the future of a unified and binding Epulian culture that transcends poli, what can Kymai offer to justify that risk? To undermine our planned national character before it lays its foundations. I truly don't know, and I have yet to see Kymai's advocates elucidate that matter for me.
 
Well, it isn't slight population bumps. You could get up to 4,000 freemen or even more if you take the right choices.
 
Karugus said:
So it really boils down to whether our goodwill will last, and what is that worth compared to the value of a culturally homogenous and unified Epulian Empire?

I can't really see the transitory prestige, goodwill, and slight population bumps as more advantageous. It seems like there would be more permanent sources of prestige we can pursue that cleave closer to our interests in creating an Epulian identity. Things like an internationally renowned temple dedicated to the Divine Marriage, a worthy stadium for the Epulian Games that garners respect from all Hellenes.

At the risk of appealing to mad panic- allowing Kymai's sovereignty to trump the Linean Laws threatens the greatest possible innovation therein- the future of a unified and binding Epulian culture that transcends poli, what can Kymai offer to justify that risk? To undermine our planned national character before it lays its foundations. I truly don't know, and I have yet to see Kymai's advocates elucidate that matter for me.
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Furthermore, when the time comes for the rest of the Epulians to follow in Kymai's example, we really wouldn't have any leg to stand on when it comes to arguing down any of their attempts to skirt the Linean Laws and found future colonies of their own exclusively out of their own colonists. I mean, what would it look like in the future if we tried to veto any attempts by them to follow the Kymaians and found their own colonies based on the prior exception we are applying here? Our only argument would be because we said so, and that would look grossly hypocritical to the rest of the Epulian League, seeing as we allowed Kymai to remain an exception for...reasons.
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 2, 2019 at 8:22 PM, finished with 5987 posts and 75 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 2, 2019 at 8:40 PM, finished with 5991 posts and 75 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 2, 2019 at 8:43 PM, finished with 5993 posts and 75 votes.
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[X] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].

I don't see giving an exception to Kymai as benefiting us in the long run.
 
I am just a bit disappointed that those who proposed the Kymai rescue in the first place is not here with us to vote in favor of rescuing as many people as possible. What was the point then?
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
Secretariat said:
So, roughly 12000 people total, if we put ourselves on the generous path? That's very worthwhile, IMO.
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Cetashwayo said:
Freemen is a combination of citizens and metics in the city. The city has 5,500 freemen, citizens included. Freemen is a term for any free man, meaning a male citizen or metic.
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Cetashwayo has already told you that multiplying what figures he gives by x3 is not accurate when you did this earlier.
 
Secretariat said:
So, roughly 12000 people total, if we put ourselves on the generous path? That's very worthwhile, IMO.
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How is setting the example to the rest of the Epulian League that we will allow them to potentially skirt the very laws we very recently set up worth a few thousand more freemen? Especially when there is a potential for this to undermine the cultural unity of the Epulian League.
 
Kipeci said:
Cetashwayo has already told you that multiplying what figures he gives by x3 is not accurate when you did this earlier.
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It's an approximation, yes, but I think it's useful to get a sense of scale.

Japanime said:
How is setting the example to the rest of the Epulian League that we will allow them to potentially skirt the very laws we very recently set up worth a few thousand more freemen? Especially when there is a potential for this to undermine the cultural unity of the Epulian League.
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Because we're going to have to learn to work with other Hellenes who are much more culturally removed, if we're going to make the League something bigger than Eretria + Colonies. Kymai, being of common descent, is much closer to us culturally than, for example, the Dorian colonies in Megale Hellas.

Personally, we know the rewards are better the more people we attract, and I am curious what the Good End of the quest chain looks like.
 
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Secretariat said:
Because we're going to have to learn to work with other Hellenes who are much more culturally removed, if we're going to make the League something bigger than Eretria + Colonies. Kymai, being of common descent, is much closer to us culturally than, for example, the Dorian colonies in Megale Hellas.
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And what are we going to say when the other Epulian League cities demand the same right to found their own colonies by bucking the Linean Laws? Are we going to just let them?

As if we vote to let the Kymaians have their own laws so quickly after establishing these laws, the precedent will have been set, trading a short term benefit of more Kymaians for the long term headache of dealing with the other Epulian cities becoming more likely to buck our edicts as we've just proven that we aren't very committed to them.

Also, you never answered the question I asked.
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 2, 2019 at 8:54 PM, finished with 5996 posts and 76 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 2, 2019 at 8:56 PM, finished with 5997 posts and 77 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jul 2, 2019 at 9:19 PM, finished with 6004 posts and 78 votes.
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[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
[x] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
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Japanime said:
And what are we going to say when the other Epulian League cities demand the same right to found their own colonies by bucking the Linean Laws? Are we going to just let them?

As if we vote to let the Kymaians have their own laws so quickly after establishing these laws, the precedent will have been set, trading a short term benefit of more Kymaians for the long term headache of dealing with the other Epulian cities becoming more likely to buck our edicts as we've just proven that we aren't very committed to them.

Also, you never answered the question I asked.
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If it's up to me, I give it to them -- every member city gets one colony round-robin, and if they can't afford it, the rest of the League supports them.

I think that's a strictly good thing, if we're trying for Adriatic dominance -- we want more colonies tied to the League, and we want them sooner rather than later, both to resolve Metic pressures and to secure the best harbors before others get to them.
 
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Allowing Kymai to have its own laws fundamentally undermines the Epulian League; please, I beseech that those voting from it consider the longer-term implications and switch.
 
[x] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
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