Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
Cetashwayo depicted Eretria and Taras as two brothers torn apart.
He also depicted Kymai as follows:
This is clearly not a city which treasures Etretia as a parent or sibling.
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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
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- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Cetashwayo depicted Eretria and Taras as two brothers torn apart.
He also depicted Kymai as follows:
This is clearly not a city which treasures Etretia as a parent or sibling.
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
I Phylakos, the seller of Kymaians... no, that doesn't sound right, makes me seem like a slave trader. What about seller of passage? No. I've got it!
Ahem
I Phylakos, SAVIOUR OF KYMAIANS, would speak to this Assembly!
Citizens, we stand at crossroads. Either we demonstrate our Arête and Magnificence by saving Kymai and elevating them not as a conquered subject but as a friend or we show ourselves as no better than Athenai, so insecure in our Arête that we must dominate our allies.
Many here claim that the Kymaians are ungrateful for our assistance. I have heard it claimed that they spurn our help and spit in our face. My fellow citizens this is not true. I, with many of this city's honourable merchants, carried grain to Kymai over the last year. When I arrived into their harbour with my hull filled with grain I saw grown men who have proved themselves in battle break into tears. They thought they stood alone and were overjoyed to find that their mother city stood with them still.
Do not judge Kymai for their demands. They are a city on the brink of destruction facing the possibility of losing everything. Is it not right that they should fear that our salvation would hide a knife to their heart? Who here can argue that Athenai would do any different?
Does it not speak to our Arête that our offer of salvation involves no subjugation? Does it not show our Magnificence that we can afford to do this simply because we decide it should be so rather than base reasons of personal gain.
I also hear many claiming that we must apply the Linean Laws because of the precedent it would create with other members of the league. I disagree.
The Linean Laws state that a new colony must accept all immigrants as citizens for the first 25 years of the colony. I also do not dispute that Kymai is an Eretrian colony. My only observation is that Kymai as a colony is over 300 years old and therefore the Linean Laws clearly no longer apply.
Frankly, if my honourable fellows are so blind that they cannot see the difference between a new colony settled by peoples from across the Adriatic and moving a city across the sea then maybe I should begin selling shaped glass instead of wheat!
Would you consider Eretria to be a 'colony' of old Eretria? Maybe we should accept every immigrant Metic as a citizen as well!
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
Ahem
I Phylakos, SAVIOUR OF KYMAIANS, would speak to this Assembly!
Citizens, we stand at crossroads. Either we demonstrate our Arête and Magnificence by saving Kymai and elevating them not as a conquered subject but as a friend or we show ourselves as no better than Athenai, so insecure in our Arête that we must dominate our allies.
Many here claim that the Kymaians are ungrateful for our assistance. I have heard it claimed that they spurn our help and spit in our face. My fellow citizens this is not true. I, with many of this city's honourable merchants, carried grain to Kymai over the last year. When I arrived into their harbour with my hull filled with grain I saw grown men who have proved themselves in battle break into tears. They thought they stood alone and were overjoyed to find that their mother city stood with them still.
Do not judge Kymai for their demands. They are a city on the brink of destruction facing the possibility of losing everything. Is it not right that they should fear that our salvation would hide a knife to their heart? Who here can argue that Athenai would do any different?
Does it not speak to our Arête that our offer of salvation involves no subjugation? Does it not show our Magnificence that we can afford to do this simply because we decide it should be so rather than base reasons of personal gain.
I also hear many claiming that we must apply the Linean Laws because of the precedent it would create with other members of the league. I disagree.
The Linean Laws state that a new colony must accept all immigrants as citizens for the first 25 years of the colony. I also do not dispute that Kymai is an Eretrian colony. My only observation is that Kymai as a colony is over 300 years old and therefore the Linean Laws clearly no longer apply.
Frankly, if my honourable fellows are so blind that they cannot see the difference between a new colony settled by peoples from across the Adriatic and moving a city across the sea then maybe I should begin selling shaped glass instead of wheat!
Would you consider Eretria to be a 'colony' of old Eretria? Maybe we should accept every immigrant Metic as a citizen as well!
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
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- Location
- Central Europe
Taras as Eretria were Brothers 40 years ago, after which came betrayal, rivalry and conflict...
I also find it quite disingenuous to purposefully remove the dice results from your Kymai reaction quote. Obander rolled a 4 and 3 with two d10, the reaction he got has more to do with bad rolls than our past relation with that city.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Kymai arguing in the Assembly about how to save the city. (Colorized)
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
And now we're friendly again after feasting on the corpse of Lykai. Feel free to catch up on the quest events.
It's not disingenuous at all. I cut out a bunch of text as well, for the reason that regardless of rolls or subsequent information on the state of Kymai, that's how Cetashwayo depicted the relationship.
He could have said 'Kymai has long enjoyed friendship and brotherhood with Etretia, but now is suspicious of their friendship with Rhegion and wonders if they like Taras have found themselves with a fairweather friend", for example.
He didn't do that.
He didn't give a caveat to indicate it was purely within the realm of rolls that our relationship wasn't great. He did however cite Rhegion as an issue, cite the disunity and chaos of the polis and say that we weren't quite as close on familial terms given the long history between Old Etretia, Kymai's Founding and Furthest Etretia.
Those are the points on which I'm viewing Kymai's view of us. If you have alternate text to present in contention, do so.
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- Location
- Space
Indeed we are not as Sparta and Athens and that is why we must respect our Leauge allies by respecting the rules we agreed to.
Yes we will demonstrate our magnificence, but we will also demonstrate to every potential polis that would be willing to go into negotiations with us that Eretria is the city that agrees on one thing today and is perfectly willing to break it tomorrow.
Now tell me will any polis be willing to entertain idea of joining a Leauge dominated by the polis which obviously won't respect other members? Remember Delian Leauge also started on more equal footing before Athenai transformed it in its personal empire.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm sorry, I misread - I'm for Kymai keeping its laws, not imposing ours.
Want to change your vote back? If so, I'll support this.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Arbitrariness is found as often in rigid adherence to established rules even when not suited to the situation at hand. Instead of Athenians you would have us be Spartans.
This situation is different from founding a new colony. It is more a negotiation between two established poleis. And Cetaswayo just made it clear that we lose prestige by driving a harder bargain and saving fewer people.
This situation is different from founding a new colony. It is more a negotiation between two established poleis. And Cetaswayo just made it clear that we lose prestige by driving a harder bargain and saving fewer people.
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
The thing is I have been convinced that we also should take the opinion of the other members of the Epulian League into consideration, especially when we have the present examples of the Sikeliote League and the Delian League to get contrasted with at the turn's moment in time.
That is why the motion is mostly about convincing Kymai about the why they should move and follow the Linean Law, with the help of all Eretria's most rewarded speakers.
Hmm...I think I should also add in explaining to Kymai why we are forced into asking them to follow the Linean Law to the motion. Assuage their irritation by meekly directing them to glare at the other Epulian League members?
So in this case...we might get Kymai as a strong supporter of Eretria whenever a veto comes in the future because we explained to Kymai that asking them to abide by the Linean Law in the Adriatic was because our hands are tied by already passing a low with the support of most of the Epulian League, therefore directing their anger at the other members because the other members unintentionally stabbed them from the front.
...anyone understood where I'm coming from?
Here's the edited motion:
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- Location
- Southern Virginia
A bad reaction from the rest of the League wasn't even mentioned in the down side of letting Kymai keep it's old laws. It was that Kymai would retain a greater cohesion and that the precedent might allow other cities to press for concessions.
- Location
- Space
Another important thing to note is that even if we let Kymai keep its laws it will only make it harder for them and us down the line. Our Leauge is still in need of reforms and by making them an exception to the rules but having them be members of our Leauge we are basically having a polis that is set in its way and will potentially refuse any changes that will endanger it's status wich could result in stopping Leauge from reforming as a whole down the line.
The citizens we are taking in now are also the one that are not stuck in old ways and are willing to adapt and change.
The citizens we are taking in now are also the one that are not stuck in old ways and are willing to adapt and change.
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- Location
- Central Europe
I placed Kymai among Eretrias friends in Magna Graecia, because thats what they were before the timeskip (edit: if you want quotes on that give me some time to get home and search the old threads) and we wouldn't be having this Rescue Quest chain if that feeling still didn't exist somewhere. Maybe, it is completely onesided by parts of the playerbase and @Cetashwayo is now showing us the reality.
You are right that in this thread our relationship has not been depicted as warmly as before the timeskip. I would argue this is due to them not being featured heavily until now (were we got a bad reaction roll). However, you could be right and the relationship really has deteriorated.
Our relationship with Taras is a whole other can of worms. Personally, I think two powers so close in both power and distance can never be true friends. At some point one of them will to come to dominate the other. By taking dominion over the Messapii away from them and having a fast growing Adriatic Empire time is now on our side. If they want to come out on top, it will be their turn to take hostile actions to disrupt our powerbase. That is IMO why we are currently interested in friendly relations. I will gladly debate you on Eretrian-Tarantine relations when it comes up in the future, but for now let us not stray too far off topic.
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- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
The greater cohesion thing could also be accomplished if the entire polis of Kymai decides to move to the Adriatic, right? Even if large numbers of metics come in to become Kymaian citizens, the original Kymaians would outnumber them, right? So let's just double down on the convincing part to achieve cohesion via another path.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
They won't come if we don't let them keep their laws and identity.
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
I genuinely do think it's mostly player goggles looking to save Kymai. Which is fine, because I'm totally wearing those same goggles. But I don't want those goggles to lead to a nasty walk of shame the morning afterwards.
In my mind, it's Naruto vs. Sasuke as fuck. By which I mean we'll team up to fight an ancient rabbit enemy of unimaginable power (yes, Kaguya is Rome) and unlock our own hidden potential as a result.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Dareios: "Then let them perish! You cannot save those who do not wish to be saved."
- Location
- Central Europe
In my mind Kaguya would be the Oscans and the Shinobi Alliance would be the Italiote League. Still, my point is that only Naruto became Hogake...
Btw does that make Metapontion Sakura?
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
In my mind Kaguya would be the Oscans and the Shinobi Alliance would be the Italiote League. Still, my point is that only Naruto became Hogake...
Btw does that make Metapontion Sakura?
No, perhaps more like Kakashi trying to peacekeep between his boys. The Oscans would most likely be Sand-Sound Invasion, I think.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
My depiction of Kymai was quite blunt. In the presence of panic, at the brink of destruction, with the city in grief and mourning and flooded by those seeking refuge from the countryside, the first thing that they are going to seek is not to ensure that the Eretrian welcome wagon is gilded.
If the first thing you expect in a mass rescue operation is cloying gratitude then you are somewhat missing the point. It requires time and the right choices to build trust, and they have no reason to trust your intentions yet.
If the first thing you expect in a mass rescue operation is cloying gratitude then you are somewhat missing the point. It requires time and the right choices to build trust, and they have no reason to trust your intentions yet.
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
You had the opening for a Trojan Horse joke and you just left it laying there. Almost like how we'll leave the Kymai citizenry laying in their mass graves when the Oscans come because they're too gosh darn ungrateful!
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
You have convinced me of the wisdom of granting them this indulgence. It is a simple thing for us to grant, and it is no slippery slope, for this is different from founding a new colony. We are moving a polis, as we were ourselves moved and fled from the Mede in bygone years.
*flowery flower*
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Further, I ask that people do not read things that are not there. Linos was concerned about setting a legal precedent, not pushback from the league. Ankon might grumble but the laws are still formative and it is in Eretria's rights to go either way. It was about what it means for the future.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
[x] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
--
It is not about simply creating a new colony. We have many places in which to place a colony, and many opportunities to place them, and many strong and wise metics who will move to the colonies to become citizens.
Kymai is our long lost child, and we are now bringing them home to safety, despite them being many years estranged. They are a long separated, distant member of our family, but they are our family none-the-less. As the wise patriarchs of our household, adopted and of blood, should we not endeavour to save as many children as we can from the flame? Together, we can grow strong and wealthy, and the new citizens that would be enabled by forcing Kymai to abide by the rules of the league as if they were just another settlement of metics would pale in comparison to the story that would be told. In the proof of our intent, not to simply build another colony, but to care for, and save the people of another Polis.
We have sent forth our fleet and we have moved an entire city to a place of safety, moving as many as we could with naught but our own charity and generosity. Yes we will benefit from the act, but so will they. In the expense of time, currency, and effort, we have enriched us both.
What other city can claim likewise?
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[x] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[x] [Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
--
It is not about simply creating a new colony. We have many places in which to place a colony, and many opportunities to place them, and many strong and wise metics who will move to the colonies to become citizens.
Kymai is our long lost child, and we are now bringing them home to safety, despite them being many years estranged. They are a long separated, distant member of our family, but they are our family none-the-less. As the wise patriarchs of our household, adopted and of blood, should we not endeavour to save as many children as we can from the flame? Together, we can grow strong and wealthy, and the new citizens that would be enabled by forcing Kymai to abide by the rules of the league as if they were just another settlement of metics would pale in comparison to the story that would be told. In the proof of our intent, not to simply build another colony, but to care for, and save the people of another Polis.
We have sent forth our fleet and we have moved an entire city to a place of safety, moving as many as we could with naught but our own charity and generosity. Yes we will benefit from the act, but so will they. In the expense of time, currency, and effort, we have enriched us both.
What other city can claim likewise?
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Dareios: "Hypocrite that you are! You claim to wish to save as many of them as we can, yet neither of the two proposed solutions truly save 'the greatest amount of people possible'. So why are there no proposals that would allow us to save yet even more Kymaians? Clearly it must be because 'saving the greatest number of people possible'is not truly our aim here."