Comedy Hour: Leukos the Accountant, On the Matter of Alkibiades

twelfth dimensional chessmaster right here
Leukos, son of Pytheas, widely styled "the Accountant:"

"Let us praise the gray-haired wisdom of Obander! For the xenoparakletor must surely have known that where that Athenian sets foot, the daughter of Old Night dances behind. This we have learned from his time in our own city! To this day, none know how "ALKIBIADES WAS HERE" came to be painted inside the very walls of the Sacred Treasury! He fled our city wanted for ten crimes- impiety, public drunkenness, greater impiety, gambling, even greater impiety, horse stealing- the list goes on! And yet, Obander went to Sicily. Where Alkibiades was to be present. For weeks. And- for a wonder!- the island did not sink into the sea! All praise Obander for this achievement!"

[others ask Leukos if he was joking]

"I DO NOT KNOW!"

Anyone else wonder if we could purchase Alkibiades' service for helping us with Kymai? Controlled chaos sounds like it couldn't hurt here.
"CHAOS CANNOT BE CONTROLLED!"

"...Especially not when Alkibiades is nearby. Let the fate of the Sicilians be a warning: do not let this man into your city, if you value the peace."

Now I'm curious, let's kidnap him.
"NOOO!"

[also, now speaking out of character]

I'm kinda afraid to go too deep now that I think about it.
...That's what Obander said!
 
Could it be? Genuinely good Eretrian theatre? Not another Eusebiad sequel or some other garbage!? Eutychion acclaims his shock at the prospect!

Honestly I'd say it's pretty mediocre compared to like Sophocles or Euripides, and doesn't even really follow the (later) "unities" of play structure laid out by Aristotle. Of course the full formal strictures of Attic theater have yet to be established and it's Alexis' first submitted play so we can be generous there.

It's something of an attempt to cast a new Eretrian founding mythos, building on recent events and using the mythic past as a way of legitimizing the discourse. There are some very, very obvious Eretrian touches in there. It's not particularly subtle. More so than the Eusebiad, and can be performed as a more universal story, but it's basically a narrative about Eretria's relationship to the natives. The bad evil natives conspired to kill the exiles by treachery and were justly punished by the gods. The good, proper, submissive natives were freed and uplifted by Hellene intervention. It's only a few steps removed from the mission civilisatrice, though that puts it in opposition to the brutal settler ideology that sees displacing the natives with Hellene settlers as a natural right of the strong over the weak.

Of course that same settler ideology is also responsible for the extremely tight social cohesion of Eretria and its unique democratic arrangements. @Cetashwayo remarked earlier that the founding of Eretria Eskhata was a truly revolutionary act that fundamentally overturned the power of the aristoi. It was only the extreme danger of the Eretrian position that forced all the factions together under the present compromise as an alternative to suicidal civil strife. That's since been ennobled as a sort of compact between the classes to place the polis as an organic whole before all other concerns so as to project strength against the barbaroi. So Eretria is still at least part-ways a very rough settler society with a tendency to respond with ultra-violence to being threatened, and there are liable to be all sorts of interesting consequences if/as that changes in favor of being a thalassocracy.
 
I just worry that as the initial core of the colony, rather than mix and integrate with the later colonists, they form a isolated, distinct pocket of resistance, if not outwardly, then subversively. The wealthiest citizen may also come to dominate the artisanal and merchant classes of the new colony.
 
Honestly I'd say it's pretty mediocre compared to like Sophocles or Euripides, and doesn't even really follow the (later) "unities" of play structure laid out by Aristotle. Of course the full formal strictures of Attic theater have yet to be established and it's Alexis' first submitted play so we can be generous there.

It's something of an attempt to cast a new Eretrian founding mythos, building on recent events and using the mythic past as a way of legitimizing the discourse. There are some very, very obvious Eretrian touches in there. It's not particularly subtle. More so than the Eusebiad, and can be performed as a more universal story, but it's basically a narrative about Eretria's relationship to the natives. The bad evil natives conspired to kill the exiles by treachery and were justly punished by the gods. The good, proper, submissive natives were freed and uplifted by Hellene intervention. It's only a few steps removed from the mission civilisatrice, though that puts it in opposition to the brutal settler ideology that sees displacing the natives with Hellene settlers as a natural right of the strong over the weak.

Of course that same settler ideology is also responsible for the extremely tight social cohesion of Eretria and its unique democratic arrangements. @Cetashwayo remarked earlier that the founding of Eretria Eskhata was a truly revolutionary act that fundamentally overturned the power of the aristoi. It was only the extreme danger of the Eretrian position that forced all the factions together under the present compromise as an alternative to suicidal civil strife. That's since been ennobled as a sort of compact between the classes to place the polis as an organic whole before all other concerns so as to project strength against the barbaroi. So Eretria is still at least part-ways a very rough settler society with a tendency to respond with ultra-violence to being threatened, and there are liable to be all sorts of interesting consequences if/as that changes in favor of being a thalassocracy.
How do you mean exactly?
 
I just worry that as the initial core of the colony, rather than mix and integrate with the later colonists, they form a isolated, distinct pocket of resistance, if not outwardly, then subversively. The wealthiest citizen may also come to dominate the artisanal and merchant classes of the new colony.
Perhaps, but then wouldn't they be the ones most invested in maintaining trade with the rest of the Adriatic through the Epulian League? Why would they then threaten the trade wealth that would then supply them their luxuries by shearing the ties that had been built up with the rest of the league?
 
Perhaps, but then wouldn't they be the ones most invested in maintaining trade with the rest of the Adriatic through the Epulian League? Why would they then threaten the trade wealth that would then supply them their luxuries by shearing the ties that had been built up with the rest of the league?
People can be motivated to do extraordinarily irrational and self-destructive actions through spite, and holding grudges and long-standing feuds is not just a Dawi thing.
 
People can be motivated to do extraordinarily irrational and self-destructive actions through spite, and holding grudges and long-standing feuds is not just a Dawi thing.
No clue what Dawi are, but settling them in the colonies precisely aims to minimize their spite. Rather than they and their descendants being permanently locked into a despised underclass in cities that they hate while the family lore is that their continued lack of rights is due to the treachery of Eretria, they may hold privileged citizenship and maintain strong rights in a new city where they may claim abundant land. There could still be some fraction of them and their descendants that never forgives Eretria, but I imagine it would be a considerably smaller fraction and they already would constitute less than half the initial population of the islands, and substantially less by the time the 24 years of immigration are up and citizenship gets locked in. Holding onto the hatred and trying to betray Eretria in the future runs the risk of lost citizenship for them and their descendants, the risk of not being supported against the vicious torturing pirates a short sail north- and at whose urging? Why would Kerkyra or Athens devote the time for this in their present situation?
 
People can be motivated to do extraordinarily irrational and self-destructive actions through spite, and holding grudges and long-standing feuds is not just a Dawi thing.
And if they want to be suicidal, then they die. Either at our hands or at the Liburni's. Simple as that.

They are a small city surrounded by Hostile Barbaroi and backed only by a powerful League. To stir up trouble is to die and be remembered in the times as an example to all those who would follow in their footsteps.
 
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There's pretty good momentum going on for colonizing the Illyrian colonies with the people of Lykai, that was at less than five only a few hours back.
Adhoc vote count started by Kipeci on Jun 17, 2019 at 10:51 PM, finished with 226 posts and 48 votes.
 
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There is also Kymai to consider. If we are successful in relocating them, we could also settle them on Pharos. The Lykai problem, if it ever was a problem, will be drowned in a sea of refugees we just saved from certain death.

To be honest, I want to offer Kymai the chance to resettle at the head of the Adriatic. Potentially on those islands off the coast near the Enetoi (IRL Venice).

We have to remember that, above all, Kymai is proud and we need to heed their pride. If we don't respect it, people are going to refuse our aid and walk to their deaths.

What we need to do is instead to appeal to their pride. By giving them their own colony to found, they're adventurous refugees, just like Eretria was when we carved our city out of the Iapyges. They're not victims hiding behind their mother's skirts, they're trailblazers. By giving them the head of the Adriatic, we also give them a fair degree of perceived independence. They're not dependent on the Epulian League (though they will be part of it). They also have nearby neighbours in the Northern Etruscans; a culture they know relatively well. If they set up on the Venetian islands, then they also have significant new defenses protecting them from barbaroi invaders. Their city will be a trade city, just like Kymai was.

I feel that his package is significantly more attractive and will be an easier sell. More people can likely be talked into taking this deal than settling them on Pharos. I believe that we don't want to settle the people of Lykai (who we forced out of their homes) alongside a people who just lost their homes. I feel that natural immigration will fill Pharos sufficiently on its own over the next few years.

I also like the fact that a Venetian colony settled by a large population will grow into a mercantile powerhouse more readily and begin contributing Triremes, Taxes, and Trade much sooner. We also have recently fought a war alongside the Enetoi so we should be able to strike while the iron is hot and get permission for another colony. We've been friends with them and now we're war buddies.

It entirely reverts the stability bonus from pushing out unhappy metics to the colonies by replacing them with more and unhappier metics, and in the case of Ankon which is already unhappy about some of our policy choices we're just dumping in 100 of these guys when that's not a negligible part of their population.

To echo on this: @Cetashwayo commented a little while ago that the population of the Epulian League was less than 20,000.

The largest city of the lot is Pylona with 7,092 free residents, including women and children. The overall free population of the league is 18,746, as compared to 79,732 for Eretria Eskhata.

We're resettling 800 Metics. That actually means we're actually resettling ~2,400 people. For every adult male (both Metic and Citizen); Eretria has a roughly 1:3 ratio to the total free population. These Metics we take from Lykai are going to be bringing wives and children with them, but the latter are effectively invisible due to cultural misogyny and for age-related reasons.

This means that if we resettle Lykai's residents across the entire Epulian League, 15% of each city will be disloyal, on average. Given how 1 of the now 9 League cities makes up ~40% of the population (Pylona), it's going to be much higher in many cities.

That's going to be substantially more disruptive than us packing Lykai into one convenient package. Sure, they can rebel more easily as a single unit, but if they do, they're isolated. We can pick them off when we have time or simply let the Liburni exact their revenge. Stamping out widespread and relatively popular grudges would be much harder, especially as splitting the Lykiians up disenfranchises them.

Spreading out the Lykiians is also dangerous because of the League Veto. If they're all stuck in one city, it's only one vote out of nine against us (six votes are needed for a Veto). If we disperse them across all of our League cities, it means that every city suddenly has a significant population base that wants to screw with us.
 
We're resettling 800 Metics. That actually means we're actually resettling ~2,400 people. For every adult male (both Metic and Citizen); Eretria has a roughly 1:3 ratio to the total free population. These Metics we take from Lykai are going to be bringing wives and children with them, but the latter are effectively invisible due to cultural misogyny and for age-related reasons.

Sorry, this is general population, not just Metics. It's a bit of a lack of clarification on my part, but it's 800 people period, not 800 adult freemen. Metic is a status which applies to women and children as well as men, just as a woman can be a citizen, but only Adult Male Citizens have the franchise. So a smaller fraction will actually be adult freemen.

This is an unfortunate confusion that resulted from the fact that for league cities I try to count overall population but for Eretria only the Adult freemen. Probably shouldn't do this.
 
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To be honest, I want to offer Kymai the chance to resettle at the head of the Adriatic. Potentially on those islands off the coast near the Enetoi (IRL Venice).

We have to remember that, above all, Kymai is proud and we need to heed their pride. If we don't respect it, people are going to refuse our aid and walk to their deaths.

What we need to do is instead to appeal to their pride. By giving them their own colony to found, they're adventurous refugees, just like Eretria was when we carved our city out of the Iapyges. They're not victims hiding behind their mother's skirts, they're trailblazers. By giving them the head of the Adriatic, we also give them a fair degree of perceived independence. They're not dependent on the Epulian League (though they will be part of it). They also have nearby neighbours in the Northern Etruscans; a culture they know relatively well. If they set up on the Venetian islands, then they also have significant new defenses protecting them from barbaroi invaders. Their city will be a trade city, just like Kymai was.

I feel that his package is significantly more attractive and will be an easier sell. More people can likely be talked into taking this deal than settling them on Pharos. I believe that we don't want to settle the people of Lykai (who we forced out of their homes) alongside a people who just lost their homes. I feel that natural immigration will fill Pharos sufficiently on its own over the next few years.

I also like the fact that a Venetian colony settled by a large population will grow into a mercantile powerhouse more readily and begin contributing Triremes, Taxes, and Trade much sooner. We also have recently fought a war alongside the Enetoi so we should be able to strike while the iron is hot and get permission for another colony. We've been friends with them and now we're war buddies.
That's not without its risks though. With a founding base of 7 000+ Citizens, a Venetian Kymai can easily grow to be a dangerous adversary to Eretria in a few generations. A City of that size with a harbor that lucrative plugged into a profitable trade network is Ouf.
 
@Cetashwayo

This doesn't have anything to do with the vote, but I just got curious. Besides Eretria (79,732) and Kymai (~17,000), what are the populations of other major Greek (or non-Greek) cities in Italy and Sicily? Particularly Taras and Syracuse.
 
@Cetashwayo

This doesn't have anything to do with the vote, but I just got curious. Besides Eretria (79,732) and Kymai (~17,000), what are the populations of other big Greek (or non-Greek) cities in Italy and Sicily? Particularly Taras and Syracuse.

I am really afraid to provide numbers. After all, these aren't city populations, they're total populations, meaning the entire polis. Athenai as a whole has something on the order of 1.5 million people in the entire Delian League, but only 40,000 live in the city. I might just end up tracking the populations of most of the major powers, though I won't do so every single election cycle.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry its people wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jun 18, 2019 at 6:07 AM, finished with 273 posts and 59 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Jun 18, 2019 at 7:31 PM, finished with 456 posts and 74 votes.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle]
 
That's not without its risks though. With a founding base of 7 000+ Citizens, a Venetian Kymai can easily grow to be a dangerous adversary to Eretria in a few generations. A City of that size with a harbor that lucrative plugged into a profitable trade network is Ouf.

Eretria has a (current as of last census) population of nearly 80,000 (25,000 of those adult men). Given we're expecting something like 7-10% population growth on our next census, our population will grow more in four years than the entire population of future Venetian Kymai. We're simply so much bigger, that, baring disaster, we're always going to be significantly more important than New Kymai. Given how their demographics are majorly screwed up due to men dying in war, their population growth is going to be reduced for decades. Manpower is power in the ancient world; it means more people to farm, to tax, to fight in the army, and produce works of culture. It improves everything.

If you're worried about the Venetian colony growing to eclipse Eretria, then that's an argument that we shouldn't colonize at all. If they're settled by an initial population of 2,000 or 10,000, it doesn't change the fact that they will continuously grow into the future. It'll take a century instead of decades for them to grow large with a smaller initial population, but they will grow eventually.

Given the fact that we've gone for Open, Controlled Colonialism, once we found any colonies, they'll rapidly balloon in size. It doesn't matter if we settle them with people from Kymai or throw open the doors for the League to populate them. We'll need to undergo some type of social or administrative change if we want to continue to grow and remain a power on the world stage.

I think there's going to be something shiny for rescuing Kymai. The population is nice, but it's only one growth cycle for Eretria alone. I'm thinking there might be technology, social organization, or cultural effects to saving the poleis long-term. Cetashwayo has named the Kymai rescue a quest chain and those always give rewards. Being able to evacuate thousands of people sounds like it will give an upgrade to admiralship or naval organization; we'd innovate out of necessity.


[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle]
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
I had thought about it but I'm not a huge fan of how the name sounds. Doesn't have enough syllables in "Kymai" to roll off the tongue as nicely as Eretria Eskhata.

Maybe Kymai Kaekias or Kymai Apeliotes? Going by classical compass winds those would seem correspond to northeast or east respectively, similar to how the western Italiote city of Lokri Epixephyrii has the latter part derived from the west wind (aka Zephyrus). Not sure if the grammer of it fits or if it's historical with the times, but at least to me those sound a bit better than Kymai Eskhata.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
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