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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Fun fact: when he was exiled for failing to retake Amphipolis Thucydides ended up in Magna Graecia, where he wrote his famous History of the Peloponesian War.

Now, granted the butterflies might easily have his life take a completely different course but having the first real historian take on Eretria-Eskhata, after visiting the city, would probably be extremely interesting...
 
The Sandman said:
Honestly, I wasn't even figuring on a discount. More just an agreement between the Drakonians and Exorians that regardless of who wins the proboulos slate, those projects are both going to be done in that sequence, and there'd be enough joint planning so that they don't interfere with each other and actual use is made of the waste stone and dirt from the water project.
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That is done anyways, the planners have other constructions in mind.

phil03 said:
Fun fact: when he was exiled for failing to retake Amphipolis Thucydides ended up in Magna Graecia, where he wrote his famous History of the Peloponesian War.

Now, granted the butterflies might easily have his life take a completely different course but having the first real historian take on Eretria-Eskhata, after visiting the city, would probably be extremely interesting...
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I thought he retired to his Thracian estate?
 
General question to the thread: As someone who is having a lot of fun with this thread, is there any recommendations for stuff to read that's similar?
 
Cetashwayo said:
I thought he retired to his Thracian estate?
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After verification, you are right: I confused some facts of his life with stuff that happened to his grandfather, serve me right for letting my fanboy enthusiam carry me without looking stuff through :oops:

dontpressenter said:
General question to the thread: As someone who is having a lot of fun with this thread, is there any recommendations for stuff to read that's similar?
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Even If I disagree with some of his thesis (mainly that the Peloponesian War remained preventable until almost the last minute and that the devastic of Attica did more then give Athens a slap on the wrist) Donald Kagan four volumes history of the Peloponesian War is a must for political stuff in Ancient Greece.
 
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dontpressenter said:
General question to the thread: As someone who is having a lot of fun with this thread, is there any recommendations for stuff to read that's similar?
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The Anabasis should be a good read.

The Peloponnesian War has two problems: it's apparently rather dry, and Thucydides died before he got around to writing about the last seven or so years of the war.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I mean, if we turned into the kind of state capable of doing that, we would cease to be enlightened and benevolent, so yeaaaah. :p

But for example, targeting the Illyrian pirates and promoting solidarity against single aggressive big actors in Italiote Greece are good examples of what we should be trying to accomplish here. Internally, the way we've disarmed the prospect of large scale slave latifundias is a good start, with the biggest looming problem being how we handle the citizen/metic divide.
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I'm not sure that serf-based farms are going to be that much of a win over the latifundias, because they're still subject to economies of scale annihilating smallhold farmers and permitting the aristocrats to buy up their land and labor.
 
The Sandman said:
The Anabasis should be a good read.

The Peloponnesian War has two problems: it's apparently rather dry, and Thucydides died before he got around to writing about the last seven or so years of the war.
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Xenophon wrote a self-declared continuation of Thucydides called the Hellenica, dealing with what came after up to the Epaminondas death. He doesn't came to Thucydides ankle as an historian and his pro-Sparta trend is a bit too glaring for my taste but it is readable and is a great primary source.
 
Godwinson said:
I'm not sure that serf-based farms are going to be that much of a win over the latifundias, because they're still subject to economies of scale annihilating smallhold farmers and permitting the aristocrats to buy up their land and labor.
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In the long run, we can resolve that issue by further legislation limiting the size of estates; the two-slaves-per cap already creates a precedent.

The reason that didn't work in Rome is that the senatorial class held a "commanding heights" of Rome's political institutions; the city was de facto closer to an oligarchy than to a democracy. Thus, there was no way to coordinate resistance to the senators amassing insane amounts of economic power, fueled by the sheer disproportionate size of Rome's conquests in the last 150 or so years of the Republic.

If we'd made different choices in the very early game, maybe we could have evolved into something like late Republican Rome with slave/serf latifundia being the prevailing form of agriculture. But it would have created a lot of dissension between the big landowners and the rest of the citizenry- who with Greek rather than Roman expectations wouldn't be very tolerant of the situation. And with things the way they are right now, it would require radical changes to the social institutions and customs of the city for us to be in a place where that could plausibly happen to us.
 
Given the scale of territory here and the limited nature of serf labour I don't think that is a big concern at this point.
 
Simon_Jester said:
OK basically yes.

I was trying to provide an example of a new foreign crop that was such a big deal that a significant number of countries actually DID radically alter their agricultural and culinary practices to accomodate it. Because potatoes, given some basic awareness of how to prepare them safely, really do provide the kind of advantage that encourages a bit of risk-taking and experimentation.

At the same time though, that's a great example of the pitfalls in attempting to introduce even the most absurdly beneficial food crops to a new society unfamiliar with the cultural practices of how to prepare them.
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Speaking as someone who ate a little bit of the green and spent a very miserable, poisoned week due to preparing potatoes in poor lighting...I rather suspect where potatoes were first eaten it was less out of choice and more out of desperation.
To discover how to eat them safely is something a gatherer tribe might be forced to learn as one of the many wild roots out there, sure a whole bunch died, but the whole bunch is dying regardless.


Simon_Jester said:
Fair. Arguably my first two examples are better because the reason to work hard and take risks to introduce the new product (chocolate and tobacco) are immediately obvious to the consumer.

If you've never seen a potato before, or seen them only as hog feed, it's not obvious why growing potatoes for human consumption is a better idea than growing wheat.
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Mind you, raw chocolate isn't self evident either.
Its pretty bitter, despite the fragrance.
The Sandman said:
Speaking of improvements, what about glass? It does seem to have been available as a luxury product at this point in time, and a slightly less expensive luxury product if it was manufactured locally (i.e. the aristocrats might be able to afford some as grave goods or displays of vast wealth, instead of being restricted to royalty, temples, and public buildings). And there's very, very good sand for glassmaking just south of Brention. I think there's actually a possibility of starting both a primary and secondary glass industry in Epulia (i.e. both manufacturing chunks of raw glass and converting those chunks into finished products), especially given that the region has a much larger and richer population than IOTL, and one tied into the broader Mediterranean trade networks.
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Glass...good sand, lots of artisan class people to play with it, and cheap fuel are the key. Glassmaking uses up a pretty large amount of fuel!
KlinkerKing said:
To them, it was poisonous. This isn't just something they thought: eating tomatoes regularly killed people. Tomatoes are acidic enough, and contain enough fluid that, if eaten on high-lead plates (very common at the time), it will actually give you lead poisoning.
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Meanwhile in Rome: "Mmm, delicious lead acetate, lets make more."
 
veekie said:
Mind you, raw chocolate isn't self evident either.
Its pretty bitter, despite the fragrance.
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To be fair the fruit is pretty good, so they might have just started with that

A good way to avoid the worse was also just observing other animals and seeing what they eat. Monkey see, monkey do worked more often than not.
 
On the subject of the vote, I feel like maybe the best way to represent the spring festival choice is to just have the day be taken up by both festivals (Persephone starting at dawn and running through the morning, Plouton in the afternoon and evening) and dedicate the whole day to women in general.
 
zac1 said:
We must save this library! D:
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What library? We're in the 420s BCE right now. Alexander is over 100 years away from conquering Greece, much less founding Alexandria. The Great Library won't be built for even longer than that.

veekie said:
Meanwhile in Rome: "Mmm, delicious lead acetate, lets make more."
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Italians, man. There's nothing we can do. Even lead poisoning can't keep them away - spaghetti is their destiny.
 
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What's the main difference between a serf and a slave in Eritrea nowadays? I forgot the vote from the old thread.

Edit: Eretria, my bad
 
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butchock said:
What's the main difference between a serf and a slave in Eritrea nowadays? I forgot the vote from the old thread.
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Given that Eritrea is basically African North Korea, only less bombastic and more totalitarian, the answer is that the citizens wish they had as much freedom as the average serf or slave.

Now what the situation is in Eretria, I would have to look that up in the previous threads.
 
dontpressenter said:
General question to the thread: As someone who is having a lot of fun with this thread, is there any recommendations for stuff to read that's similar?
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Sivantic said:
Civ-quest? Yes, there are oodles.

But the social aspect shown here, not as much.
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Yeah, even on a forum as big as SV, with as long a tradition of Questing as we have, MG is honestly kind of special in the friendly community atmosphere, the elements of players getting stuck in to roleplay, and the amount of research from the GM and players. It really is quite special.

In terms of Greek sources, both of the recommendations above sound good, and I think @Cetashwayo also put in a biography at the front of the quest, so you might try something there. Soldiers and Ghosts for example has actually been on my to-read list for ages, I know a lot of our historical hivemind on SV speak pretty highly of it.
 
dontpressenter said:
General question to the thread: As someone who is having a lot of fun with this thread, is there any recommendations for stuff to read that's similar?
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Quest wise there isn't much in the same vein that I have come across though if you are simply interested in ancient Greece fiction there is always Christian Cameron and for example his Long War series. He is one of the best in my opinion when it comes to historical fiction and you won't find better battlescenes anywhere.
 
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Oh yeah, snap!

Christian Cameron is generally great in terms of sketching historical cultures which feel distinctive and alive, based on a real understanding of them. I haven't read his stuff set in the Classical and Hellenistic periods yet, only his Chivalry series, but I can whole-heartedly recommend him just based on that alone.
 
Yeah Christian Cameron is great his chivalry series is by far the best researched medieval series I have ever read and all his books are a fun read.
 
Yep, His fantasy series is also pretty good, especially if you like medieval stuff.

None of his stuff has dissapointed me yet.
 
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[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Return of Persephone. Favored by many married women, the return of Persephone is a re-enaction of the drama of Persephone's departure from Hades. Having been married happily to Hades for six months of the year, for in this interpretation she is not kidnapped but seduced away from her domineering mother, the young Persephone must say goodbye to her beloved husband and lord of the underworld. Persephone is presented here as a traditional woman, but also an icon of femininity, beloved by many women in Eretria for giving them someone to look up to. Embued in mystery and icons of the dead, the Return of Persephone is a festival that celebrates the transition from winter to spring and from death to life, the birth of new children, and draws heavily from the Eleusinian mysteries near Athenai, that famed mystery cult.
[X] [Winter] The Ascendency of Zeus Olympios. A monumental festival that celebrates the military victory of Zeus Olympios of the titans and the end of the titanomachia, the war against them. The ascendency has become increasingly popular in Eretria due to the influence of her olympic contestants who have been so shaken by the recently completed statue of Zeus at Olympia that have returned to their faith more vigorous than ever. The true supreme God of the Hellenes, Zeus deserves to be celebrated with vym and vigor in a military and civic parade. During the Ascendency, there is a battle among those representing the titans and olympians, with brawling and wooden swords, and a competition involving a ball which represents control of the heavens between two teams.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.
 
[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.

[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.

[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.

[X] [Honors] The city has no masters except the Gods, none to worship except those in the heavens. To elevate men to such a degree threatens the rise of tyrants.
 
veekie said:
Meanwhile in Rome: "Mmm, delicious lead acetate, lets make more."
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What could possibly go wrong :V

@Sivantic Of course, I wasn't implying that tomatoes are poisonous when ingested by themselves. Of course, a whole slew of ghosts of dead dudes who owned tin-lead pewter plates are likely furious with me, but hey ;)
 
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Have a little something I made. I'll put it in spoiler since it's a bit embarrassing for me.

Draft 1:
The Reconciliation of Zeus and Hera
by
Timanthes, son of Thymoetes​


Dramatis Personae:
Zeus - King of the Gods, husband of Hera
Hera - Queen of the Gods, wife of Zeus
Artemis - Goddess of the Hunt
Hestia - Goddess of the Hearth


Basic Plot:
Zeus, tired of Hera's nagging, once more leaves Olympus for the mortal lands to seek another lover. He has not yet even begun his search, however, when he hears a clamor coming from Olympus. Thus he turns back, in order to find out the cause of the ruckus.

Upon returning to the sacred mountain, Zeus finds that the realm of the gods has descended into chaos, half-revelry and half-battle. Aghast, Zeus seeks out Hestia for an explanation for the madness. Hestia says that Hera, who keeps order in Olympus when Zeus is away, as befits her role as Queen of the Gods, has gone away. To where? No one knows. After restoring order to Olympus, Zeus commands all the gods to go out in search of his missing wife.

It is Artemis who finds her, hidden in a cave in Italy, close to where Furthest Eretria was founded. She tells Zeus that Hera refuses to leave the cave for any reason but would not tell Artemis the reason why. Hearing this, all the gods begin to compete to draw Hera from her cave, having experienced the chaos that comes from her absence. None of their methods work, however. When everyone else has had their turn, Hestia speaks to Zeus of a plan she has devised. Zeus, in disguise as Hestia and wearing her shawl, will enter the cave and attempt to speak with Hera, in order to find out why she's hiding. Zeus agrees to the plan and enters the cave.

Inside the cave, Zeus finds Hera, alone and miserable. Prompting her under the guise of Hestia, Hera laments how all her brothers and sisters are in happy marriages, while she, the very goddess of marriage, languishes in her "union" with her boorish husband. Moved, Zeus tells his wife of the chaos that ensued in Olympus following her absence, noting that she is not only the goddess of marriage, but also Queen of the Gods. Her place will always be above her subjects, and beside her king. With that, Zeus sheds his disguise. Hera is taken by surprise at this revelation, and doubts the truth in his words. Zeus assures her that all he said is true, and that what he will say next is also true: no longer will Cronides search for another bride, not when the queen of brides is his. They share a happy moment.

Finally convinced, Hera leaves the cave hand-in-hand with Zeus. Together, they revel and admire the gods' handiwork in attempting to bring her out. She blesses the cave, as well as the fields and mountains that surround it with much bounty before departing with the other gods back to Olympus.
 
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