The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
Introduce the Pythagoreans to the concept of zero and watch as they marvel at it.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Diomedea
A piece of the continent
- Location
- The interblag
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
No.
Diomedon the Terse in response to a long and eloquent speech in support of Athenagoras Symmachos's proposed intervention in Kerkyra.
OOC: I am ashamed to admit that I spent 10 minutes fiddling with a name generator, before I remembered my username is ancient greek.
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
No.
Diomedon the Terse in response to a long and eloquent speech in support of Athenagoras Symmachos's proposed intervention in Kerkyra.
OOC: I am ashamed to admit that I spent 10 minutes fiddling with a name generator, before I remembered my username is ancient greek.
Last edited:
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
He's a Spartan spy! Apprehend him!
No man who speaks in sentences shorter than three words is to be trusted!
Last edited:
Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
I wish I had time currently to work out a roleplay argument for this vote but at present I can't. It's tough to decide between pirate hunting and barbarian commerce as the additional action though.
Voting between "good" and "also good" and "also also good" is hard!
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
I wish I had time currently to work out a roleplay argument for this vote but at present I can't. It's tough to decide between pirate hunting and barbarian commerce as the additional action though.
Voting between "good" and "also good" and "also also good" is hard!
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
You'd only be choosing between additional foreign policy options next turn.
- Location
- Austria
Yeah, @Admiral Skippy has the right of it: festivals, bonding barbaroi closer and celebrating another one of divine marriages are all very important and are going to grow further our culture as something to behold.
I have issue with their immigration strategy, but other than that...
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
I have issue with their immigration strategy, but other than that...
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I mean, it's a tossup. Either they marvel at it, or they go "THIS IS KROTON!" and kick you into very deep pit full of beans.
There is no middle ground with these guys.
Leukos:
"When Alcibiades the Athenian came to Eretria, I overheard him tell Diomedon that he thought he could make our terse countryman say at least three words."
"Diomedon said "You lose." "
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A more important spy blowing the cover of a disposable one to earn trust is a time-honored technique.
Something I was noting as well based on a bit of research I was doing was that most of the Greek cities founded along the Adriatic coast are actually joint or sole colonies between Kerkyra and/or Korinth.
With both Kerkyra's and Korinth's navies indisposed (Kerkyra by civil war and Korinth because they're terrified of Athens), we will win a lot of accolades by crushing Illyrian pirates currently running amok. Ideally, we'd even be able to peel a few of the Adriatic Greeks from Kerkyra's/Korinth's orbit and encourage them to join the Epulian League. A lot of those cities depend on commerce and have to be thinking to themselves how long they can tolerate the losses inflicted. It was Korinth and Kerkyra that kept the pirates down and made their living tolerable; most of the Adriatic Greek colonies depend on trade, primarily in slaves, but also in shipbuilding materials. If pirates are preventing them from trading, their bottom line will be hurting, especially since agriculture is relatively poor in Illyria.
Looking at the situation from the outside, no one can tell how long Korinth is going to be at war with Athens. They've been fighting for years already and there's no end in sight. Given how Sparta murdered literally everyone who opposed them in Platia, the war's beginning to turn vicious. When does it end? Given how they've been toppled, Kerkyra is going to be distracted as long as Korinth's involved in the war. They're either going to be subordinate to Korinth and following their overall policy, or they're going to regain their freedom and fight Korinth in revenge.
Even if Korinth and Sparta win, how softly is Spartan Hegemonia going to sit on top of Korinthian shoulders? We know that IRL, within a few years of Athen's defeat, Korinth and Thebes both turned their armies against Sparta and started another war. Everyone has to know that the Peloponnesian League is fundamentally unstable. As soon as they win, they're going to explode into feuding factions.
Athens isn't likely to win. I mean that in that they have no way to defeat Thebes, Korinth, and Sparta. They simply lack the manpower to fight all three of them on land and then win. They need to acquire treasure, mercenaries, manpower, allies, something from elsewhere and then bring it back to gain an advantage in Hellas. Korinth isn't likely to easily fall and free Kerkyra to allow them to being pursuing Hegemonia in the Adriatic. As long as Korinth stands, Kerkyra will not be able to sleep soundly and thus has to keep focused east or else they're vulnerable to another coup.
While Kerkyra and Korinth are distracted, it's the perfect time to give the Adriatic Greeks a better offer. The Epulian League is down right generous in how much control and representation it gives to the minor cities that make it up and we only take 10% of their income as tribute (when we formed the Epulian League, it was the lightest tribute we could ask for). Athens and Sparta run their Leagues like dictatorships and vehicles for extractive tribute.
The only issue I can foresee is in that most of the cities whose governments I could find information on, tended to be oligarchies in the Adriatic. Korinth founded cities and aggressively spread their type of government. That could cause friction with the greater Epulian League and Magna Gracia in general since Democracy is so entrenched. We've never gone on a crusade to force democracy onto other polis, so we can truthfully offer assurances to the Adriatic Greeks that we would respect their internal governance. The League has their veto to ensure it and we're not irrationally democratic.
Of course, there's an easy way for us to comply with this while still pressuring the Adriatic city-states to adopt true democracy. The Demos Drakonia have already hit the nail on the head here: League colonization. By allowing anyone in the Epulian League to join a colony within its first 25 years and gain citizenship, it makes it significantly more likely that disenfranchised Greeks from the already existing member states will 'vote with their feet' and leave. Being able to wait 10-15 years to see if a particular colony works out removes a lot of the risks for early colonists. The existing city-states will have to offer compromise or else they will empty out into irrelevance. The oligarchs need the merchants, poor, and artisans that make up their cities.
From the perspective of a colonist, going to an Epulian League colony isn't much of a drawback. Sure, they have to get there, but ships are constantly plying the trade routes. They have to rebuild their lives, but it means they'll have access to land and wealth they never could've dreamed of. They will also have franchise and can contribute to their own self-determination. They will have to deal with new threats, but the Epulian League is there to defend the colonies. Given how much larger our military is than most other city-states, wherever they go will enjoy the same relative protection.
Last edited:
- Location
- Hell
...
...That was not what I asked. I was wondering how much bigger the office is since the Epulian League asked for universal coinage, weights, and measures for all the league and how they planned to do that.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
The League would simply adopt Eretrian weights. They didn't mention coinage.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
SKANTARIOS: I have been an Eretrian hoplite since mute Diomedon was suckling at his mother's teat. Much more likely that his mother's milk was laced with subversive Lacedaemonian agitprop. It's quite the epidemic.
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Interpretive dance, obviously. The Spartans have always been known for their... dances.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
They grunt at each other, or so my Athenian friend tells me.
@Cetashwayo, I've looked over this statement it doesn't make sense; I can't square the numbers.
In 345 OL, our total adult freeman population was 21,721. In 349, it's 22,883.
That's a difference of ~5.3% = ((22883-21721)/21721*100%), not the 7% that the Probolous claims. Our population should be 23,241 if we actually grew 7% over the last four years.
If 23,241 is our actual population, then our manpower should be:
3,300 Rowers
500 Sacred Ekdromi
50 Kleois Exoria
Levies = Adult Freemen*0.5 - Men Employed as Rowers or in Special Units
Levies = (23241*0.5) - (3,300 + 500 +50)
Levies = 7,770
Unfortunately, I cannot calculate what our levies should be because I'm not sure how the hoplite ratio changed. Is it still 45% or did our disbursement of public lands increase hoplites by a static number (+351), but the ratio then changed again due to differing wealth levels of new metics?
- Location
- Pilipinas
Is the number 0 invented yet? Anyway...
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
My brethren among the Demos Exoria speaks the most sense in issues regarding the internal needs of the city and as I promised, I will vote in the favor of increasing our livestock and agriculture, for better horses and oxen, for the domestic boar and wool of the sheep, for the use of the ass, the mule, and donkey. For festivals that favors the weasel which the dog only comes close in terms as being a true man's companion. Not only would these increase our coffers but also bind the barbaroi closer to us, for when they see our fair city, they will know that our prosperity means also their prosperity. As to the Xenoparakletor, Taras was once like a brother to us, it should be so again, and like all of the other Italiote Greek, let us make use of the treaty to bind all of the other city-states to us and under our sphere of influence.
So says I, Calyx the animal breeder.
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
My brethren among the Demos Exoria speaks the most sense in issues regarding the internal needs of the city and as I promised, I will vote in the favor of increasing our livestock and agriculture, for better horses and oxen, for the domestic boar and wool of the sheep, for the use of the ass, the mule, and donkey. For festivals that favors the weasel which the dog only comes close in terms as being a true man's companion. Not only would these increase our coffers but also bind the barbaroi closer to us, for when they see our fair city, they will know that our prosperity means also their prosperity. As to the Xenoparakletor, Taras was once like a brother to us, it should be so again, and like all of the other Italiote Greek, let us make use of the treaty to bind all of the other city-states to us and under our sphere of influence.
So says I, Calyx the animal breeder.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Several hundred people died in the war last turn and their numbers were subtracted.
It went down to 44% at census time.
That seems to be a really weird way to explain the census then and counter-intuitive for population growth. Everyone who died in the Sallentine War was dead before the Census would've been conducted. Shouldn't the Probolous have just said we grew by over 5% then? Since they're only counting individual people before and after, battle casualties don't matter; the census is only taking snapshots at specified time intervals and they extrapolate the growth rate from that.
Though it does put into perspective how costly war is when a relatively simple several month campaign resulted into the deaths of approximately 2% of all adult freemen. Any other time period and those loses would be considered grievous. That's not even getting into the fact that our allies lost far more.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Actually yes, that's a good point. I've corrected it with those numbers and I'll do the same for the next one.
inawarminister
I ♥ anime
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
- Location
- Luton Airport
@Cetashwayo am I right in thinking that the Exodia Military Mission would address some of the same issues in integrating the Messapii as the Tributary mission, just over a longer timespan?
- Location
- USA
Two things.
Firstly, I am not sure if this has been discussed, but it looks like for Deme Antipatria's foreign policy objectives, it looks like we're probably going to be involved in a small minor war in the future as this mission to Taras is partially contingent on a joint conquest of Lykai. Is that correct @Cetashwayo ?
I am not particularly sure how the other Hellenes will view this action, or of the long term consequences, so I figured I may as well bring up the topic so that others could potentially enlighten me on the ramifications of this choice.
Secondly:
When it comes to choosing one of other six missions offered by the other Demes, assuming Deme Antipatria keeps its lead, what other missions do people want to undertake? For as I understand it a lot of people would like to address the Adriatic Pirate Problem rather soon.
Firstly, I am not sure if this has been discussed, but it looks like for Deme Antipatria's foreign policy objectives, it looks like we're probably going to be involved in a small minor war in the future as this mission to Taras is partially contingent on a joint conquest of Lykai. Is that correct @Cetashwayo ?
I am not particularly sure how the other Hellenes will view this action, or of the long term consequences, so I figured I may as well bring up the topic so that others could potentially enlighten me on the ramifications of this choice.
Secondly:
When it comes to choosing one of other six missions offered by the other Demes, assuming Deme Antipatria keeps its lead, what other missions do people want to undertake? For as I understand it a lot of people would like to address the Adriatic Pirate Problem rather soon.