Eh, I have to admit that the whole Kerkyra stuff doesn't seem that important to me. It is the anti-piracy option and the two potential new colonies that make that option so attractive in my eyes. I mean installing a friendly a regime on Kerkyra would nice and I don't think it would upset Sparta/Korinth and Athens that much (and certainly the former more than the later) but I wouldn't be that distraught if we fail at starting the whole thing and I certainly won't vote for any massive expedition towards the city either.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I do feel its worth mentionning that historically the democrats in Kerkyra retook power by themselves. Granted, its not an insurance it will happen but as of yet the Peloponesian War is going slightly better for Athens then in OTL, thanks to the Hippeis Eskatha, with no massive changes so I'd say its a pretty likely possibility.
So no point breaking further what will probably fix itself.
So no point breaking further what will probably fix itself.
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- Location
- Central Europe
Will have to content with the dominant Athenian navy, if they are now siding with Korinthios.
Also, Kerkyra probably still lost a large share of their navy before the start of this quest at the Battle of Sybota
@Cetashwayo I'm guessing that still went down roughly like OTL? I think I remember you referencing the follow-up "battle" of 20 Athenian triremes vs. the Korinthian fleet.
Colonies really grow so slow, that 4-8 years really doesn't make that much of a difference in my eyes and the domestic policy really doesn't have much chance to win this turn (For that we should wait for the harbor great works, which is more popular than the Prometheus Temple).
Yes, our income would grow more under the Demos Drakonia, but we really don't have any issues with money right now. Especially since we are not starting a new Great Work this election. Which means there will actually be 1 year without construction, further increasing our treasury.
The pirate risk to our trade routes has been addressed. It might actually play in our favor. If the Ekklessia has to revolt against the Demos to fund pirate hunting, then we might soon see a new system for assigning Xenoparakletor missions.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Yeah, but they didn't lose much at that battle. It was mostly about the Athenians owning the shit out of them so badly they didn't want to face them in sea battle again.
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
The anti-piracy option and the colonies have my approval as well. However, the developments in Italy and Sicily are crucial in my eyes, much, much more so than what may happen on the other side of the Adriatic.
It's as Skippy and Cavalier said: An Italiote League is our best shot for long-term survival, matched only, perhaps, by assimilating the local barbaroi. It should be our highest foreign policy priority.
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- Location
- Central Europe
I meant Kerkyran losses in the first battle versus Korinthos.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Oh yeah, that still happened.
You are the second or third guy to state this and by god it is starting to annoy me because I am really struggling to come up with a poor but populous state that was successful in this era while I know a lot of wealthy states that were successful even with limited manpower. And the funny thing about wealth is that it tends to attract people, even in those ancient times.
The Exorian slate, for the third time, brings in about twice the trade revenue that the Drakonid slate does, when you factor in both the overland trade routes and the 2% boost to Tariff Efficiency.
It also starts development of our Overland Trade Routes earlier, which is important because they are uncapped, and so will represent our main source of expanding trade for next fifteen years.
The Drakonid slate represents the right policies for the wrong time. When we've built the Great Harbour and can continue growing our sea trade, or actually established a thriving overland trade which is also growing? A boost in Tariff Efficiency would be wonderful!
Right now though, it is essentially an improvement to a fixed quantity, rather than establishing growth for the future. It is also just straight up half the revenue.
If you want to pursue commercial development, and look beyond the branding and at the hard figures, then the Exorian slate is clearly superior. Again, this game is about choosing the right policies at the right time, and starting overland trade lays a really strong foundation for our future prosperity, one that a Drakonid policy later on could capitalise on.
It also starts development of our Overland Trade Routes earlier, which is important because they are uncapped, and so will represent our main source of expanding trade for next fifteen years.
The Drakonid slate represents the right policies for the wrong time. When we've built the Great Harbour and can continue growing our sea trade, or actually established a thriving overland trade which is also growing? A boost in Tariff Efficiency would be wonderful!
Right now though, it is essentially an improvement to a fixed quantity, rather than establishing growth for the future. It is also just straight up half the revenue.
If you want to pursue commercial development, and look beyond the branding and at the hard figures, then the Exorian slate is clearly superior. Again, this game is about choosing the right policies at the right time, and starting overland trade lays a really strong foundation for our future prosperity, one that a Drakonid policy later on could capitalise on.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
- Location
- France
[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
Are we so soon forgetting the lessons of the last war? Must we remain blind to the waning of the ties that bind us to our Hellenic allies? To the envy that our rise is sparking among many? War is brewing in the west; war is coming from Hellas through Kerkyra. Our peril is great, that we could be forced to fight unexpectedly both in the East and in the West.
Yet, there is also opportunity, in the news that the Xenoparakletor brings. It is time to renew our sacred bond with the Sikeliote league. Syrakousai has not forgotten how we broke their attempt at hegemony in Sicily. My father Theodotos fought then. Today, they ready themselves for another attempt. Should they succeed, we shall suffer. They would siege our walls, they would attack our ships. We must stop them while our allies stand! We must aid the Sikeliote league!
It is time also to attempt to soothe resentment among those in Taras. Memnon reports that the political situation in Taras is favourable, Myron the warmonger has been cast down, for now. Yes, we must seize this opportunity while it lasts. Obander Eupraxis speaks true : we have the ability and the opportunity to defuse negative sentiments in Italy, to remind our allies that we stand by our word, and to contain an ancient enemy. Thus the West can grow in peace and stability. Then, and only then, can we deal with the growing unrest to the East.
Yet we need not remain idle while Liburnian pirates raid and plunder! Epiktetos Linos' proposals will strengthen our allies in the Epulian league. With mightier allies, a springboard is ready to cross the Adriatic and burn down the havens and ships of our foes. Our merchants would enjoy greater protection. And crucially, his policy of awarding citizenship in Ankon and the smaller League members to metics and volunteers among our own citizens is shrewd. I am a hoplite myself. Yet I, Nereus, had a lot of time to speak with those who cannot afford a panoply, while we were sieging Taras, and I know something of their plight. Few have spoken in this assembly today. Yet their complaints must be heard, and Epiktetos Linos has listened! There was grumbling, growing in strength as the siege lasted, that the psilloi would be beggared further. Many are struggling even now to afford a spear and some boiled leather as armour. Epiktetos Linos proposes a wise solution, with the chance of fortune for those who depart, and lessened pressure on those who remain.
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
Are we so soon forgetting the lessons of the last war? Must we remain blind to the waning of the ties that bind us to our Hellenic allies? To the envy that our rise is sparking among many? War is brewing in the west; war is coming from Hellas through Kerkyra. Our peril is great, that we could be forced to fight unexpectedly both in the East and in the West.
Yet, there is also opportunity, in the news that the Xenoparakletor brings. It is time to renew our sacred bond with the Sikeliote league. Syrakousai has not forgotten how we broke their attempt at hegemony in Sicily. My father Theodotos fought then. Today, they ready themselves for another attempt. Should they succeed, we shall suffer. They would siege our walls, they would attack our ships. We must stop them while our allies stand! We must aid the Sikeliote league!
It is time also to attempt to soothe resentment among those in Taras. Memnon reports that the political situation in Taras is favourable, Myron the warmonger has been cast down, for now. Yes, we must seize this opportunity while it lasts. Obander Eupraxis speaks true : we have the ability and the opportunity to defuse negative sentiments in Italy, to remind our allies that we stand by our word, and to contain an ancient enemy. Thus the West can grow in peace and stability. Then, and only then, can we deal with the growing unrest to the East.
Yet we need not remain idle while Liburnian pirates raid and plunder! Epiktetos Linos' proposals will strengthen our allies in the Epulian league. With mightier allies, a springboard is ready to cross the Adriatic and burn down the havens and ships of our foes. Our merchants would enjoy greater protection. And crucially, his policy of awarding citizenship in Ankon and the smaller League members to metics and volunteers among our own citizens is shrewd. I am a hoplite myself. Yet I, Nereus, had a lot of time to speak with those who cannot afford a panoply, while we were sieging Taras, and I know something of their plight. Few have spoken in this assembly today. Yet their complaints must be heard, and Epiktetos Linos has listened! There was grumbling, growing in strength as the siege lasted, that the psilloi would be beggared further. Many are struggling even now to afford a spear and some boiled leather as armour. Epiktetos Linos proposes a wise solution, with the chance of fortune for those who depart, and lessened pressure on those who remain.
Unless the system is horribly broken and extremely unrealistic overland trade should be a very limited thing compared to naval trade because it so god damn expensive so I highly doubt that this idea of use endlessly establishing landroutes for the next fifteen years has any bearing on reality. And I am less interested in the precise revenue and more in the colonies and the policies connected to it since the sooner we start with that the better.
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
(@Admiral Skippy I summon thee to support Deme Exoria)
Given that the boule will force an anti-piracy action, I am shifting vote from Demos Drakonia to Demos Exoria. I fiercely oppose the Antipatrid xenoparakletor still.
Consider:
1. The Italiotes are themselves split between those who support Syracuse and those who oppose it. While this is yet so, it doesn't make much sense to establish closer contacts when we will be fighting half of them in a few year's time.
2. Demos Antipatrid leaves the question of the Dauni unresolved. Yes, we successfully forced their king into an unenviable position and thus averted a two-front war. In the intervening years he will no doubt labor to unite the cities which previously opposed him, and thus we may find ourselves under attack from the Dauni while our men are busy in Sicily. Now that we have unbalanced the Dauni, we ought strike.
3. The business with the Messapi remains unfinished. If left to their own devices they could rebuild under their king, and prove themselves a truculent thorn in our side. It's best to strike while the iron is hot and suborn them to our will.
4. Likewise let us reforge the League to better serve us while they still feel deep gratitude towards us for the concessions we gave them. Later we will find them more ornery.
And note that:
1. Taras received a lenient peace and, by defeat, the war faction was discredited. If we let in the Pythagoreans this turn then we can attempt to allay Tarentine feelings more effectively on the next. Trying and failing this turn is a worse idea than waiting and striking with a stronger hand.
2. The Sikleotes aren't themselves helpless. They will definitely be pushing against Syracuse and doing the job of assembling an anti-Syracuse coalition. It is deep hubris to assume that, were we not there, they would totally fail. We ought trust in the verve of our allies and let them head the anti-Syracuse effort while we consolidate the gains of the last war.
--
THUS:
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
Given that the boule will force an anti-piracy action, I am shifting vote from Demos Drakonia to Demos Exoria. I fiercely oppose the Antipatrid xenoparakletor still.
Consider:
1. The Italiotes are themselves split between those who support Syracuse and those who oppose it. While this is yet so, it doesn't make much sense to establish closer contacts when we will be fighting half of them in a few year's time.
2. Demos Antipatrid leaves the question of the Dauni unresolved. Yes, we successfully forced their king into an unenviable position and thus averted a two-front war. In the intervening years he will no doubt labor to unite the cities which previously opposed him, and thus we may find ourselves under attack from the Dauni while our men are busy in Sicily. Now that we have unbalanced the Dauni, we ought strike.
3. The business with the Messapi remains unfinished. If left to their own devices they could rebuild under their king, and prove themselves a truculent thorn in our side. It's best to strike while the iron is hot and suborn them to our will.
4. Likewise let us reforge the League to better serve us while they still feel deep gratitude towards us for the concessions we gave them. Later we will find them more ornery.
And note that:
1. Taras received a lenient peace and, by defeat, the war faction was discredited. If we let in the Pythagoreans this turn then we can attempt to allay Tarentine feelings more effectively on the next. Trying and failing this turn is a worse idea than waiting and striking with a stronger hand.
2. The Sikleotes aren't themselves helpless. They will definitely be pushing against Syracuse and doing the job of assembling an anti-Syracuse coalition. It is deep hubris to assume that, were we not there, they would totally fail. We ought trust in the verve of our allies and let them head the anti-Syracuse effort while we consolidate the gains of the last war.
--
THUS:
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
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Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
*Cough* Central Italian Swamp-Hicks *Cough*
You know, the most successful ancient state of them all? Who famously beat the shit out of a certain trade-focused empire centered on a city state in Africa? Who went on to become the largest empire in European history, lasting for, depending on how you count, between one and two millennia?
The Romans of this age were a primarily agrarian and martially focused culture. Which is not to say that they didn't do trade, but they were certainly far less concerned with it than either the Greeks or the Carthagians.
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There are some good Drakonid domestic policies; I particularly like the idea of incentivising immigration to the colonies through citizenship, which could be a great boon to Eretria's landless poor. But they can probably wait five years or so, and may in fact be better suited then.
As far as Overland Trade goes, in the bigger picture, yes, sea trade will always bring in considerably more revenue. But remember here that we only have one more maritime trade route open to us. So for the next fifteen years, until the Great Harbour is completed, presuming we want to do the sewer first, we are severely limited in our maritime trade growth. Remember also that the saltworks at Salpia will probably give us the ability to export salt overland, as the inland barbaroi will be willing to pay a premium for it. Cattle trade routes also open the option for trade in luxury goods brought back by traders on their journey home.
Overland trade will not be a majority of our trade, ever, but for the next fiteen years it is where the greatest growth potential lies. It is also worth double the revenue right now, although of course this is not the only important aspect. Just as interesting to me are the exciting and beautiful possibilities of formally adopting our syncretic local festivals like the Running of the Weasels, as well as the stronger ties and friendships with our barbaroi allies that trade will bring.
A great deal of strength comes from our barbaroi levies and allies, with them we are a real power in Italia rather than just one strong city-state. So strengthening ties without committing ourselves to a war with the Dauni so soon after the last one makes a lot of sense to me.
- Location
- USA
And you are ignoring that Drakonid domestic policy increases that tariff further then Exorian does which will apply to Exorian trade routes should we pick Exorian domestic next time. Draknoid also opens up further reforms to boost our trade ability further, Exorian does not. Drakonid foreign lets us fill our last trade slot with a luxury trade good, amber, on which we would have a monoply in trades with other Greeks please not we are not told what that talent gain will be but it will be high and it will have 3% more trade with Drakonid then Exoria.
Also Drakonid gives us long term growth to our colonies as a policy and it takes time for those colonies to grow to the point that they can contribute men and ships to the common defense, but with Draknoid it both does it quicker and gives us a relief valve on Metics which allows them to become citizens elsewhere which will also boost our Hoplite numbers.
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
Demos Exoria for proboulos is tempting. It's almost solely the military reforms which keep me voting Antipatrid.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
The best way to keep Athens and the Peloponnesians out of the Adriatic is to resolve the Kerkyrian issue before Athens gets involved. Once they get involved, Korinth gets involved, and once Korinth gets involved their allies won't be far behind. Far better to just resolve the issue rapidly, before one things lead to another and we have a fight between the two just next door. Because if the two fight, whoever wins may start making demands of us, and that probably would push us to take a side, which could end disastrously.
So we need to ensure we remain the dominant force in the Adriatic for the foresseable future, lest either side sense a power vacuum and move to occupy it. Eretria Eskhata is Mediterranean port city, and it is going to live or die based on what trade flows through its harbor. That trade and our dominance over it must come first. If our economic base is not secure, we will have less power to contest our enemies. So I'm a fan of the Drakonid foreign policies for now.
Domestically, the Drakonids create a path to citizenship for some of our huge metic population, which is exactly the direction our city needs to head in to survive, because getting full use of our metic population is going to make or break our polity. Especially once the Pelonponnesian war begins to escalate, because that will spur even further immigration.
[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
So we need to ensure we remain the dominant force in the Adriatic for the foresseable future, lest either side sense a power vacuum and move to occupy it. Eretria Eskhata is Mediterranean port city, and it is going to live or die based on what trade flows through its harbor. That trade and our dominance over it must come first. If our economic base is not secure, we will have less power to contest our enemies. So I'm a fan of the Drakonid foreign policies for now.
Domestically, the Drakonids create a path to citizenship for some of our huge metic population, which is exactly the direction our city needs to head in to survive, because getting full use of our metic population is going to make or break our polity. Especially once the Pelonponnesian war begins to escalate, because that will spur even further immigration.
[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
- Location
- Central Europe
@Admiral Skippy If you promise to vote for the Drakonian Proboulos next time the new harbor comes up (so probably in 4 years), I would be willing to switch to Exoria for this election. 
The Amber trade route alone would presumably give us + 11.2 Talents (45% of 25).
- Location
- USA
Reforms are expensive though so we need more income if we want to pursue them, which for foreign is Exoria for partial Mesapii tribute and Drakonia for Amber trade.
Opening up further options for maritime reform is supposition, and may not take place within this boule.
Overland trade equally opens up options to further grow our trade with the barbaroi, who represent massive untapped commercial oppurtunties, and moreover, economic ties with them increase our strategic position. The sooner we begin this and start growth, the better.
The Luxury trade route in Amber is very nice, but it is tied to the poison pill that is sticking our arm in the Kerkyan meatgrinder for no good reason. We can afford to wait a little longer.
The question as I see it is, do we really need them right now, though?
Personally, I don't want to go to war with another city-state on land in a conventional war for another decade or so. At the last vote, we were comitted to basically spending some five or ten years really securing our position with the Mesapii and the Dauni. If we can do that, we will have huge resources and levies to draw on. Personally I still think that's a really good idea, along with avoiding unnecessary entanglements. We're in a fantastic position right now.
Military reform is great, but it's also expensive, and I think we can afford to wait a bit? I don't want us tempted into adventurism when we don't need to be, and it's not like we aren't well defended at the moment.
Our strategoi and hoplites are not going to forget their last war, so the option should remain open, I think.
@Admiral Skippy If you promise to vote for the Drakonian Proboulos next time the new harbor comes up (so probably in 4 years), I would be willing to switch to Exoria for this election.
Deal. The Sewers will probably win, and I'm happy for them to do so, but keeping Drakonid ideas in circulation is a perfectly good policy.
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Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
We're really not hurting for money right now.
You mean the guys whose city was founded on one of the major nexus of traderoutes in the area, who if I remember my facts right made a lot of their early profit via taxing the salt trade going through their city/town, fought wars to ensure said salt and a useful port fell under their control? Those guys? The ones with the large empire whose (early) expansion was financed to no small degree thanks to its fabulous income from trade with like I said earlier the trade with india via egypt playing a very significant role in the success of Augustus and his successors?
It was trade that allowed Rome to appear and trade that gave it the ability to become a legend.
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
Hmm... that is a good point. But I'm not entirely confident we'll still have the political will for reforms without our hoplites' disappointing performance in recent memory, so I'm afraid I'll have to stick with Antipatrid.
I'll probably be voting Exoria soon, but not this turn.
- Location
- Central Europe
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
They probably will, but if the Drakonids go for Colonial policy + Harbor next time it could be tempting.