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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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My concern is that between the pirates and a newly hostile Kerkyran fleet, we wouldn't be able to support our Sicilian allies in the first place. With both Kerkyra and Epidamnos in their hands, the Korinthians can effectively block the exit to the Adriatic.
 
Driven by Apathy said:
Actually, manpower is even more important than gold in the current age. Something which we won't gain by trade.

Not that trade isn't nice, but it's not as important as you seem to believe.
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One of the starter options had this: [Start with improved land levies and a 20% rise in the cost of all army upkeep]

Note the upkeep increase and that there would be further reforms we can work on. A better military both on land and sea costs money, trade is our best shot at gaining the money to pursue such reforms as well as innovation which tends to be costly.
 
[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
 
The Sandman said:
My concern is that between the pirates and a newly hostile Kerkyran fleet, we wouldn't be able to support our Sicilian allies in the first place. With both Kerkyra and Epidamnos in their hands, the Korinthians can effectively block the exit to the Adriatic.
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Normally you would be right but, thankfully, Athens has just sunk the Corinthian fleet two years ago so they simply don't have the naval assets to project their power that far at the moment.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
So, just as a reminder here, the Exorian domestic slate opens up more trade than the Drakonid one, and actually brings in about twice the revenue.

Overland trade routes are also not capped, and likely to grow over time, which for the next fifteen years until we can build a larger harbour, is a very good thing from our perspective.
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Exoria opens up trade with domestics, Drakonid improves tariff efficiency which applies to all our trade. That will apply to Exorian trade routes in the future and the amber luxury trade route from the Draknoid foreign policy and we found dye to be exploited at our current colony. All things that get boosted by the tariff efficiency boost.

Drakonid also seems to open up further merchant reform.
 
Void Stalker said:
The Drakonid policies also between the probolus colonial emmigartion act and the xeno getting the Amber trade and setting the stage for follow up Illyria and Venice colonies plus the merchant reforms that boost our efficiency (which means future trade will generate more revenue) is an excellent way to increase Etria fund and then turn around next turn and work on reforms and other expensive projects. Doing so now also keeps Athens from getting ideas of future missions past Kerkyra as once they have done a successful mission there, the idea that they can do a successful mission even further carries more weight.
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I'm all on board the Drakonid policies, but I have to agree with the others here: There is little reason to rush.
Our greatest rival for the Amber trade Korinthos and Kerkyra are both gonna be busy this turn.
The same goes for the colonies. Yes, it is a shame to have to postpone this again, however does it really matter that much if we do this in 4 years or now?
Compare this to the long term benefits we gain from: 1) Diplo intervening on Sicily before war can break out (which would destroy any chance of taking Adriatic focused actions). 2) Establish diplomatic relations with all the important players in the west. 3) Making sure that Taras goes, in EU4 terms, from Outraged (willing to join any coalition against us) back to Cold.
The greatest short term risk was the piracy, but as we heard: As soon as they damage our trade we can simply spend some talents and manpower to launch that anti-piracy mission.

I really wanna go for that Adriatic "Empire", but these are not the right mix of policies at this point in time from the Demos Drakonia.
 
Void Stalker said:
One of the starter options had this: [Start with improved land levies and a 20% rise in the cost of all army upkeep]

Note the upkeep increase and that there would be further reforms we can work on. A better military both on land and sea costs money, trade is our best shot at gaining the money to pursue such reforms as well as innovation which tends to be costly.
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Again, as a reminder, the Exorian slate boosts our trade income by considerably more than the Drakonid slate does, and also boosts our Tariff Efficiency, if by a little less.

The cattle trade also lays the foundation of overland trade with the barbaroi, and remember, overland trade routes are uncapped, so the growth potential here for the next fifteen years is huge.

I'm all for developing Eretria's commercial strength, but we should be smart in how we grow.
 
I'm honestly more concerned about the opportunity cost of not establishing regular relations with the rest of Italia and preparing for the General Congress in Sicily. We voted for Syracuse to be filled with a burning hatred of Eretria. They are our core rival, not Corinth and not Athens (thank the gods). There is no prospect of either Corinth or Athens displacing Eretria from the Adriatic or shutting down our trade routes in the near future. There is every reason to be concerned that, unopposed by Eretrian diplomacy or even interest, the Syracusans can win a huge diplomatic victory imperiling the Sikeliote League in three years time. And then who knows how long there will be a window to try to reconcile with the Tarantines and thereby neutralize the biggest vulnerability of the city, a revanchist Taras aligned with a powerful naval ally.

Not to mention the folly of having made enormous progress on establishing the norm of an active and sophisticated diplomacy in Italia only to turn our backs on participating in it. There is no doubt in my mind that Obander is the perfect representative to fellow Greeks and that he can create a network allowing for regular diplomatic contact and intercourse with the Italiotes and furthermore that this system might yet spread out further across the Mediterranean.

So yes, Kerkyra is not the most pressing concern around. And Cetashwayo has said if the pirates get bad enough we will be able to force the boule to deal with them. We have time to put together an Adriatic Empire. We have three years to thwart Syracuse escaping out of its diplomatic confines and becoming a threat to Eretria motivated not by interest but by hatred.
 
phil03 said:
Normally you would be right but, thankfully, Athens has just sunk the Corinthian fleet two years ago so they simply don't have the naval assets to project their power that far at the moment.
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And the Kerkyran fleet?

Note that the issue isn't that Kerkyra was overcome by invasion, it's that an oligarchic coup installed a Korinthian puppet regime. Their navy is presumably still intact.

That said, if we can deal with the pirates outside of the Drakonid slate, that does overcome some of my concern.
 
phil03 said:
Normally you would be right but, thankfully, Athens has just sunk the Corinthian fleet two years ago so they simply don't have the naval assets to project their power that far at the moment.
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Korinthos' navy wasn't destroyed, they just don't want to engage the Athenian fleet for dominance of the Ionian Sea again.
 
Let's remember, we fought a difficult contest with Taras, and then ended it on good terms. We did so in order to gain a better reputation in Italy.

We have a time limited opportunity here to prevent Taras from becoming revanchist and angry with us, and instead gain a friend. We also have the chance to create a stronger diplomatic network amongst all the Italiote cities, laying the groundwork for a truly strong Italiote League, which provides an alternate route to state formation. This may not be a chance we have again.

Remember our discussions about building a stronger league of Italian cities? Remember our hopes of building something that could defend against the Samnites, against Rome?

This is our chance to do that.

We have bled for it. We have fought for it. We have made peace for it.

Let's not throw it away now by getting easily distracted.
 
Leukos the Accountant, while deeply wary of the prospect of Pythagoreans coming to the city, casts his vote for Obander as xenoparakletor, that the other Italiote Greeks may not come to hate us because Mnemnon kicked sand in their faces in an attempt to befriend them Peuketii-style or something.

[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

He will under no circumstances vote for the Antipatrid candidate for proboulous because Pythagoreans. Also Epiktetos, perhaps struck with some divine madness in punishment for his cunning victory at Taras, is proposing to construct a temple to Prometheus when Zeus is grumpy, which seems like a bad idea.

And besides, it was the Exorids who first proposed the sewers.

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
 
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[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
 
The Sandman said:
And the Kerkyran fleet?

Note that the issue isn't that Kerkyra was overcome by invasion, it's that an oligarchic coup installed a Korinthian puppet regime. Their navy is presumably still intact.

That said, if we can deal with the pirates outside of the Drakonid slate, that does overcome some of my concern.
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They have very strong ods of being brought back to the fold back by an athenian-sponsored coup and if not they are likely to still be busy dealing with the athenian fleet for the forseable future. Considering how it ended for the Corinthians while Athens was still railing from the plague I don't give them good ods of survival if it come to that...

Ultimately they're is only power who has both the means and the motives of potentially being a truly existential threat to Eretria: Syracuse. Keeping them boxed in is and must remain priority #1, at least until we got some serious breathing space in that regard again.

Cetashwayo said:
Korinthos' navy wasn't destroyed, they just don't want to engage the Athenian fleet for dominance of the Ionian Sea again.
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Fair enoug, but if they can't even seriously compete in the Gulf of Corinth anymore I really don't see them having the means to threaten us for sometimes.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 2, 2019 at 6:40 PM, finished with 394 posts and 89 votes.
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Going for the Drakonid option now will also damage the Drakonid ideal of an Adriatic Empire in the longer term, because we'll spend four years buggering about with Kerkrya, then immediately have to turn around and try and scrabble to deal with the huge crisis that will have developed in Sicily.
I'd rather settle the issues to the West first, so we can then focus on building our maritime economy without distraction.
 
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
 
Kerkyra is a small island but its navy is to be feared, and coupled with Corinth, could prove a major threat.

I question the wisdom of establishing better relations with the Italiotes when we will soon march to war against half of them! The whole point of closer relations with the Italiotes is to prevent them from forming a coalition against us but the conflict in Sicily will accomplish that anyways. It is a good idea but now is too early.

With Taras we have a time window broad enough that we can hope to wait four years and still soothe their tempers.
 
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Spacegnom said:
I'm all on board the Drakonid policies, but I have to agree with the others here: There is little reason to rush.
Our greatest rival for the Amber trade Korinthos and Kerkyra are both gonna be busy this turn.
The same goes for the colonies. Yes, it is a shame to have to postpone this again, however does it really matter that much if we do this in 4 years or now?
Compare this to the long term benefits we gain from: 1) Diplo intervening on Sicily before war can break out (which would destroy any chance of taking Adriatic focused actions). 2) Establish diplomatic relations with all the important players in the west. 3) Making sure that Taras goes, in EU4 terms, from Outraged (willing to join any coalition against us) back to Cold.
The greatest short term risk was the piracy, but as we heard: As soon as they damage our trade we can simply spend some talents and manpower to launch that anti-piracy mission.

I really wanna go for that Adriatic "Empire", but these are not the right mix of policies at this point in time from the Demos Drakonia.
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25.66% of our current income derives from trade which runs by sea at this point. In addition we took the starter option for more trade efficiency and now can boost that further. Postponing the colonies delays how long before those colonies can support a trireme or two to add to our league defense and patrol for pirates in there area. It gives time for another nation to potentially gain the trade and colonies for themselves. It gives more time for the pirates to harm our trade and reduce our treasury. It also runs the real risk of why not put it off until next time each election cycle (the same thing was said last election about pirates and trade we can do it in 4 years) at which point any action we take we are doing so with less funding. Also another benefit is that this and the domestic policy will create more landowners in the colonies which in turn increases the number of hoplites we can call on from the league which if we do Draknoid this turn and then Antripa foreign and Exoria domestic next cycle we will have more hoplites, more money and naval security in the Adriatic so that we can focus our full attention to the West.

That is a part people are not factoring in that by getting Kreyka to Etrian aligned we are shutting the Pelonpesian war out of the Adriatic allowing us to focus westwards in future turns.
 
Furthermore, there is a deep hubris in assuming that without Eretrian involvement the Sikleotes will suffer a diplomatic catastrophe. They have twice forced Syracuse to pay tribute and for them it is an existential matter. In the Adriatic we are alone and our position is unbuttressed by allies.
 
Let's look at the long term here. Korinthos are unlikely to even be able to hold Kerkyra against Athens. Historically, Athens smashed them.

If they do manage to hold on, they will not be able to hold it long, and just trying to do so against Athenian interference will give them far too much to worry about than picking a fight with us, a near-peer naval power. It makes no sense from their perspective.

Korinthos also can't "cut off" the Adriatic by holding Kerkyra, because that is not how naval power works in this century, or this millennium for that matter. Just to clear that up. :V

Our best bet for an Adriatic Empire is to let them bleed themselves in games like this whilst strengthening and securing our position at home, perhaps establishing a few more trade colonies or doing an anti-piracy operation, and then, when we are ready, sweeping in and smashing them in a decisive naval battle, if we even need to. Which we may not by that point. Kerkya is essentially a distraction that will weaken us before we are ready.

In the unlikely scenario that it does become a problem, we can move to intervene supported by our Italiote neighbours. Because they have an interest too here in other powers playing games in Italy, let's remember.

Acting unilaterally and too early here would be a real blunder.
 
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