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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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McLuvin said:
And both of my examples literally took that into account. Their funding of the Messappi and the Sicilian Expedition were not clear in how they were supposed to help Athens win their war, yet they were done anyway! In fact that's one of the major reason the Sicilian Expedition failed so badly.
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The Sicilian Expedition was sold by Alkibiades as an easy way to get a bunch of resources to use against Sparta. Yes, it was a massive blunder but it wouldn't have been atempted had it not been presented as a way to win the war.

As for the money to the Messapii, Taras had deep ties with Sparta since its foundation and Athens didn't gain anything directly by helping the Messapii so the most logical explanation is that the money was seen as a good way to keep them busy, just to be on the safe side of thing.

Besside, simply limiting the analysis to the Peloponesian War would be a mistake here. Athens had sent fleets and hoplites before and it didn't need Kerkyra to do so...
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Kerkyra is not the key to us controlling the Adriatic.
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They may not be the key to controlling it, but they are the key to containing Korinthos for long enough for us to do so.
Ironanvil1 said:
Why, when we can let Athens handle that slowing and profit thereby?
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Because there's no guarantee they will do so. Of course, they will want to, but with their current situation it's hardly a stretch to imagine them deciding they need to focus on other issues right now. And even if they decide they want to intervene - as they did historically - there's no guarantee they succeed. Things have already changed, we can't rely on history playing out as we want it to.
Driven by Apathy said:
They're also about to get their shit ruined by the Athenians, who will in turn be weakened by that battle.
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We hope they'd be about to get their shit ruined by Athens.

As we draw the near entirety of our wealth from the Adriatic I prefer not to rely on hope.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
That's why we spend the time cementing our position in Italy and Sicily, such that we are far less open to interference than if we let our own backyard fester while we make a risky lunge for a prize that will lead us into conflict with Hellas.

The Messapii under our yoke, and Taras content with our pre-eminence mean neither Athens nor Sparta have an easy means to intrude upon Epulia. An agreement with the other Italiotes to resist such foreign interference would make it even harder. The goals you want to achieve are not best realised by the plan you've selected.
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What part of "the majority of our trade goes through the Adriatic" escapes you? I worry not about an invasion of our city, but rather that the city might be beggared!
 
Cavalier said:
That's not saying "they won't do that." It's saying "they'd have to work at it."

Putting a bull's eye on Eretria by pissing off Athens and Corinth at the same time seems a poor way to secure Eretria's lack of involvement in the Peloponnesian War in any case. Then we face the prospect of simple failure of the plan to succeed in toppling the oligarchs. Suppose we happen to wind up faced with a Corinthian fleet at Kerkyra? Or that our attempted coup is betrayed from within? Or simply that the body of Kerkyrans as a whole reacts badly to armed foreigners storming ashore and decide to fight our force?

It might be best if Symmachos' delegation just doesn't convince the Democrats to separate themselves from Athens and comes home empty-handed.

In any case there is no threat to our position in the Adriatic from the Corinthians or the Athenians for some time. Time we can use to settle issues far nearer at home. We can mount an expedition to the Illyrians later, or pass a user motion to send out triremes on patrol as a lesser measure to alleviate some of the pressure of piracy, or discuss a joint operation with the Enetoi. The matter of the Adriatic is not so pressing that we must attempt a dangerous coup d'etat of another state tied to both sides of the most brutal war between Hellenes ever.
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All of these are reasonable objections, though I will say that Athenai would not generally be willing to start a war with Eretria over Kerkyra, given that Eretria has a feared naval reputation in the Adriatic Sea, one that is higher than that of Korinthos or Kerkyra.
 
Satar said:
Yes, there is risk in war? Of course there is a chance that it all goes belly-up, but there is that risk with diplomacy in Taras (what if they take it as an insult?) and likewise with the Messapi.
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In the case of Taras or the Messapi, the consequence of failure is something we know we can deal with, for we have done so in the past.

In the case of Kerkyra, not only is the risk of failure far higher, but even success might still result in disaster and draw us into the war! And the consequences of that disaster would be far more dire than failing to achieve a lasting reconciliation with Taras or the Messapi being less loyal than we might wish.
Satar said:
Because unlike in OTL it isn't guaranteed that Athens loses. If they win, they will hold round our necks a tight leash.
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Yeah, no. At worst, they'd be in a position to blockade our trade. Which is something they have absolutely no reason to do, given that said trade is largely going to them.
Satar said:
If they win the war they won't need our grain anymore and will be perfectly positioned to choke off our trade.
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If they win the war, they'll still need our grain just as much as before. And they'll still have no motive to interfere with our trade.
 
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Ironanvil1 said:
That's why we spend the time cementing our position in Italy and Sicily, such that we are far less open to interference than if we let our own backyard fester while we make a risky lunge for a prize that will lead us into conflict with Hellas.

The Messapii under our yoke, and Taras content with our pre-eminence mean neither Athens nor Sparta have an easy means to intrude upon Epulia. An agreement with the other Italiotes to resist such foreign interference would make it even harder. The goals you want to achieve are not best realised by the plan you've selected.
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All that are words, same words we gave to Taras before we turned our back on them.
Will those words matter when there is Athenai fleet on Italys doorstep ? Are we willing to go to war against Athens even in face of their potential alliance with Syracuse?

By allowing them to take Kerkyra we are opening ourselves and Italy to Peloponnese war .
 
HastyGaming said:
As we draw the near entirety of our wealth from the Adriatic I prefer not to rely on hope.
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We draw most of our wealth from taxation and the city survived just fine without making an Adriatic Empire in the two episodes before this one. Consolidating the Iapygians under our control and increasing inland trade and developing links to southern Italia to supplant trade with the upper Adriatic and Hellas would also be highly viable paths. A thalassocracy is only one possible path for Eretria and to be honest aside from the vote at the beginning of this quest is not one that Eretria has been particularly focused on- if anything choices in the previous quest had heavily favored a land-based military power and a more egalitarian hoplite-based democracy over a mercantile state.
 
So looking at the vote, I'm really shocked and upset here at the low turnout for Demos Exoria for proboulos.

It's still early days, so I'm hoping we may be able to reverse this!

The Exorian domestic slate does the most to boost our trade, and strengthen positive economic and cultural ties with our barbaroi neighbors and allies. Given we spent so much time talking before the last update about the value of just this, I hope that we can all remember what a good idea it is. It also regularises our festivals, boosting our trade efficiency, but also meaning that Eretria can develop more of her own distinctive culture, something we have strongly wanted to do. Local festivals linked to the agricultural calendar have a real rustic charm, and I would like to see the Running of the Weasels made an official festival.

Overland cattle trade routes have multiple benefits, ones that accrue over time. Firstly and most obviously, they provide money, and in fact the Exorian platform boosts our trade income by more than any other. Moreover though, they build cultural and positive economic ties, strengthening our bonds with our allies and helping to further Hellenise them. They also lay the foundations to grow our trade into the future; cattle routes are especially good because driving large numbers of animals has the kind of bulk throughput that means it is very easy to bring glasswork or pottery back with you, or salt when we get Salpia up and running. The earlier we start, the earlier growth will start.

The festivals tie in with this wonderfully, because they will bring in local, syncretic influences, showing the contribution that the locals have made to our culture and worship, and that which we have made to theirs. This further ties our barbaroi neighbours to us because traders coming to the city can participate in festivals similar to their own. Recall also @Cavalier's excellent idea to establish a Sacred Grove to Artemis outside the city, at which the barbaroi can come and make sacrifices. The Temple of Artemis atop the Hill of the Divine Marriage is an excellent foundation for this, and can be the start of a cult of Artemis and Orion, further tying us with our neigbours.

Every single part of this slate works perfectly in concert with every other part. The other slates have interesting options, but taken as a whole, this is far and away the best one. Appealing to your greed for a moment, it also brings in by far the most revenue, and promises to do so greater in future.

For our financial and diplomatic future, this seems like a really good idea to me, especially as the Mesapii are fragile right now, and our Dauni allies unsure. Now is the best time to strengthen positive ties.

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
 
Satar said:
What part of "the majority of our trade goes through the Adriatic" escapes you? I worry not about an invasion of our city, but rather that the city might be beggared!
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It may have escaped you, but the Adriatic is this rather large body of water, while Kerkyra is a rather small island...
Satar said:
If they win the war they won't need our grain anymore and will be perfectly positioned to choke off our trade.
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Which war? The one that historically lasted twenty five years? That one?

Star said:
All that are words, same words we gave to Taras before we turned our back on them.
Will those words matter when there is Athenai fleet on Italys doorstep ? Are we willing to go to war against Athens even in face of their potential alliance with Syracuse?

By allowing them to take Kerkyra we are opening ourselves and Italy to Peloponnese war .
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What part of "Athens feeds itself off Eretrian grain" is difficult to understand here? We sell them food, they eat the food, without having to send armies stomping around Italy, destroying said food before they can eat it...
 
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I really dislike the distribution of diplo "actions" this election.
Demos Drakonia goes all Adriatic/East, Demos Antipatria goes all West, Demos Exoria goes all Barbaroi. Both the Kerkyra and the Dauni actions feel simply much more risky than a simple diplomatic mission to shore up support in the west. Especially since their respective payoffs are quiet ambivalent (Kerkyra = potential for conflict with Athens/Corinth, Dauni = More unhappy barbaroi subjects and longer Samnite border).
Spending at least one "action" to address a different region, like last election, would make more sense for ALL three Demoi.

Well, since we cannot change that anymore let me switch to:
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Proboulos: Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia)

I hate that this will continue to ignore the pirate threat.
I fear that this will endanger our trade.
I dislike that this makes us even more likely to get entangled in some big coalition war in the west.

However, this is narratively mainly a protest vote to show Demos Drakonia and Demos Exoria that they simply cannot ignore Italiote diplomacy. Just like all "parties" now include immigration policies, the establishment of new proxenoi in the west should force all Demoi to deal with Italiote diplomacy.
Epiktetos Linos gets my vote to keep up Drakonia's share of vote, which is relevant for the lower offices. My prefered outcome is now a full Antipatria or Exoria/Antipatria government.
Next election I'm very likely going to go for full Drakonia or some mix of Drakonia and Exoria....

@Cetashwayo How do you feel about a user-motion in which we change the election system, going forward? I think the citizens should be allowed to force a Xenoparakletor to undertake a different mission. Obviously, this should cause a significant malus if we force the Xenoparakletor to go on a mission that lies outside his skill set (e.g. sending Mnemnon to Greeks or Obander to Barbaroi). Right now I feel the candidates simply focus on what they are good at, and any potential failures are caused by particularly bad rolls.
 
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Cavalier said:
A thalassocracy is only one possible path for Eretria and to be honest aside from the vote at the beginning of this quest is not one that Eretria has been particularly focused on- if anything choices in the previous quest had heavily favored a land-based military power and a more egalitarian hoplite-based democracy over a mercantile state.
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For good reason. The swamp-hicks from central Italy won't be stopped by ships. There's no water between us, unfortunately.

In the more short- and medium-term, the Tarentines, Daunii and Samnites won't be stopped by ships either. Eretria may, or may not be a strong sea power, but it absolutely has to be a strong land power.
 
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Athens or Corinth in control of Kerkyra may become a threat, after perhaps two decades of more grueling war. Meanwhile Syracuse is an avowed threat determined to overthrow the Common Peace imposed on it and restore its hegemony over Sicily and Italia.

Also if we're totally determined to deal with pirates can we just submit a User Motion to pay for some triremes to go out and patrol to sink pirate ships? Something far less than an expedition, but enough to dampen down on the pressure from piracy for a bit?
 
Admiral Skippy said:
So looking at the vote, I'm really shocked and upset here at the low turnout for Demos Exoria for proboulos.

It's still early days, so I'm hoping we may be able to reverse this!

The Exorian domestic slate does the most to boost our trade, and strengthen positive economic and cultural ties with our barbaroi neighbors and allies. Given we spent so much time talking before the last update about the value of just this, I hope that we can all remember what a good idea it is. It also regularises our festivals, boosting our trade efficiency, but also meaning that Eretria can develop more of her own distinctive culture, something we have strongly wanted to do. Local festivals linked to the agricultural calendar have a real rustic charm, and I would like to see the Running of the Weasels made an official festival.

Overland cattle trade routes have multiple benefits, ones that accrue over time. Firstly and most obviously, they provide money, and in fact the Exorian platform boosts our trade income by more than any other. Moreover though, they build cultural and positive economic ties, strengthening our bonds with our allies and helping to further Hellenise them. They also lay the foundations to grow our trade into the future; cattle routes are especially good because driving large numbers of animals has the kind of bulk throughput that means it is very easy to bring glasswork or pottery back with you, or salt when we get Salpia up and running. The earlier we start, the earlier growth will start.

The festivals tie in with this wonderfully, because they will bring in local, syncretic influences, showing the contribution that the locals have made to our culture and worship, and that which we have made to theirs. This further ties our barbaroi neighbours to us because traders coming to the city can participate in festivals similar to their own. Recall also @Cavalier's excellent idea to establish a Sacred Grove to Artemis outside the city, at which the barbaroi can come and make sacrifices. The Temple of Artemis atop the Hill of the Divine Marriage is an excellent foundation for this, and can be the start of a cult of Artemis and Orion, further tying us with our neigbours.

Every single part of this slate works perfectly in concert with every other part. The other slates have interesting options, but taken as a whole, this is far and away the best one. Appealing to your greed for a moment, it also brings in by far the most revenue, and promises to do so greater in future.

For our financial and diplomatic future, this seems like a really good idea to me, especially as the Mesapii are fragile right now, and our Dauni allies unsure. Now is the best time to strengthen positive ties.
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Honestly, I love the Antipatria domestic policies because I think they are forging our unique culture, with grand temple of divine marriage and focus on loyalty to the city.
If Exoria were to build a Marriage Temple I would probably pick them, for festivals and cattle routes alike.
Marital reform thing is not really a factor in me voting for Antipatria, really.
 
Satar said:
If they win the war they won't need our grain anymore and will be perfectly positioned to choke off our trade.
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If they win the war better that we have an allied Kreyka to back our navy. Plus why would Athens be worried about us? We have not acted against them, kept grain flowing to them during the war, and occupied Taras at the start. They still have Persia in the East to contend with and trade and influence in other areas plus without having installed the Kreyka dems themselves less influence there so no good base to work out of in the Adriatic.

Plus if we want to do the military reforms those tend to be expensive (the one from the first vote in the quest is a good indication and that boost upkeep by 20%) and Drakonia opens up trade which is where we can get the funding from control of Adriatic trade to support military reforms.
Adhoc vote count started by Void Stalker on Jun 1, 2019 at 6:45 PM, finished with 164 posts and 46 votes.
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Ironanvil1 said:
It may have escaped you, but the Adriatic is this rather large body of water, while Kerkyra is a rather small island...

Which war? The one that historically lasted twenty five years? That one?


What part of "Athens feeds itself off Eretrian grain" is difficult to understand here? We sell them food, they eat the food, without having to send armies stomping around Italy, destroying said food before they can eat it...
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You guys are assuming that the war will be like otl and last two decades. It may or may not. We don't know.

My point is that as a victorious Athens ascends, it will peel off Spartan allies and thus will be able to source grain from elsewhere...thus no longer needing ours.

Driven by Apathy said:
For good reason. The swamp-hicks from central Italy won't be stopped by ships. There's no water between us, unfortunately.

In the more short- and medium-term, the Tarentines, Daunii and Samnites won't be stopped by ships either. Eretria may, or may not be a strong sea power, but it absolutely has to be a strong land power.
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The sinews of war are clad in gold and no easier avenue will we find than trade, trade with the wealthy East.
 
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Cavalier said:
Also if we're totally determined to deal with pirates can we just submit a User Motion to pay for some triremes to go out and patrol to sink pirate ships? Something far less than an expedition, but enough to dampen down on the pressure from piracy for a bit?
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I tried that, it was rejected, don't know if we can try it again at some point, we might be blocked off from it though, the Exorian only got the land policy through due to having rolled well on winning the position that allowed them to push it.
 
Spacegnom said:
@Cetashwayo How do you feel about a user-motion in which we change the election system, going forward? I think the citizens should be allowed to force a Xenoparakletor to undertake a different mission. Obviously, this should cause a significant malus if we force the Xenoparakletor to undertake a mission that lies outside his skill set (e.g. sending Mnemnon to Greeks or Obander to Barbaroi). Right now I feel the candidates simply focus on what they are good at, and any potential failures are caused by particularly bad rolls.
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The increasing unwieldiness of the current system for the demes and growing frustration among the citizenry about having allowed greater leeway for the executive only for them to use it as an opportunity to zero on in their particular priorities over what some argue is the good for the whole polis is rapidly escalating as competition between the demes prevents focusing on a single region. It was acceptable during the rule of Demos Drakonia because the monomania of that deme on seapower and expanding trade networks worked well with a relatively stable political environment at home and abroad, in a period of peace in both Hellas and Magna Graecia. As the world becomes more threatening and the political situation at home becomes increasingly unstable with the death of Drako, the loss of memory for the great esteem in which he was held, and the declining currency that any single faction holds over the people, this will collapse. We're already starting to see this with the integration of immigration and religion into each platform, but effectively what you're talking about is an assembly revolt against the demes' failure to effectively address critical issues for the city, and it's something that will probably erupt by the end of this term.

Cavalier said:
Also if we're totally determined to deal with pirates can we just submit a User Motion to pay for some triremes to go out and patrol to sink pirate ships? Something far less than an expedition, but enough to dampen down on the pressure from piracy for a bit?
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If you start losing trade routes the anger of the populace at the demes ignoring the issue will be too much to ignore and there will be a significant devotion of talents and perhaps ships in order to at the very least manage the pirate issue by assisting Illyrian allies in fighting the Liburni on land and sea.
 
Void Stalker said:
If they win the war better that we have an allied Kreyka to back our navy. Plus why would Athens be worried about us? We have not acted against them, kept grain flowing to them during the war, and occupied Taras at the start. They still have Persia in the East to contend with and trade and influence in other areas plus without having installed the Kreyka dems themselves less influence there so no good base to work out of in the Adriatic.

Plus if we want to do the military reforms those tend to be expensive (the one from the first vote in the quest is a good indication and that boost upkeep by 20%) and Drakonia opens up trade which is where we can get the funding from control of Adriatic trade to support military reforms.
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One of the Drakonid votes seems to have been separated from the mass for the Xenoparakletor. So it should be 23
 
Kerkyra is one small city, and Athens are notionally our ally.

Athens taking control of Kerkyra will not suddenly transfer control of the whole Adriatic to them via witchcraft. Nor is Athens they likely to suddenly start interfering with our trade when we send them grain, and have essentially no quarrel with them. There is no profit to them in doing so, and they have a lot of other concerns.

Facing a punitive fleet of Athenian triremes if we do manage to take over Kerkyra (a gamble) and our diplomats are unsuccessful in smoothing things over, however? That could certainly dent our position in the Adriatic.

Taking the longer view here, if we want to strengthen our position in the Adriatic, then the Drakonid policies are absolutely good ones, in about five to ten years. We should let the other big players exhaust themselves first, allowing us to move in with trade colonies. Athens will be a broken reed soon, and Corinth weaker as well. The Drakonid proposal for immigration to trade colonies granting citizenship, for example, is genius, but we can afford to do it somewhat later, when our position at home is more secured.

Kerkyra represents no serious threat to us at present, other than the threat of overextending ourselves.
 
Satar said:
You guys are assuming that the war will be like otl and last two decades. It may or may not. We don't know.
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It may, or may not, but there is every indication that it will last for quite some time and be costly for both sides.
Satar said:
My point is that as a victorious Athens ascends, it will peel off Spartan allies and thus will be able to source grain from elsewhere...thus no longer needing ours.
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Will it? What major center of production would come under their influence? Also, what makes you believe Athens will be victorious? For that matter, why do you think a victorious Athens would turn its attention west, rather than east or south?

The problem with Demos Drakonia's plan is that it's based on assumptions, not facts. Those assumptions may come true, or they may not. Demos Antipatria and Demos Exoria, on the other hand, seek to to deal with issues on which we have real actionable intelligence we can base a reasoned plan on.
Satar said:
The sinews of war are clad in gold and no easier avenue will we find than trade with the wealthy East.
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Actually, manpower is even more important than gold in the current age. Something which we won't gain by trade.

Not that trade isn't nice, but it's not as important as you seem to believe.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Kerkyra is one small city, and Athens are notionally our ally.

Athens taking control of Kerkyra will not suddenly transfer control of the whole Adriatic to them via witchcraft. Nor is Athens they likely to suddenly start interfering with our trade when we send them grain, and have essentially no quarrel with them. There is no profit to them in doing so, and they have a lot of other concerns.

Facing a punitive fleet of Athenian triremes if we do manage to take over Kerkyra (a gamble) and our diplomats are unsuccessful in smoothing things over, however? That could certainly dent our position in the Adriatic.

Taking the longer view here, if we want to strengthen our position in the Adriatic, then the Drakonid policies are absolutely good ones, in about five to ten years. We should let the other big players exhaust themselves first, allowing us to move in with trade colonies. Athens will be a broken reed soon, and Corinth weaker as well. The Drakonid proposal for immigration to trade colonies granting citizenship, for example, is genius, but we can afford to do it somewhat later, when our position at home is more secured.

Kerkyra represents no serious threat to us at present, other than the threat of overextending ourselves.
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The Drakonid policies also between the probolus colonial emmigartion act and the xeno getting the Amber trade and setting the stage for follow up Illyria and Venice colonies plus the merchant reforms that boost our efficiency (which means future trade will generate more revenue) is an excellent way to increase Etria fund and then turn around next turn and work on reforms and other expensive projects. Doing so now also keeps Athens from getting ideas of future missions past Kerkyra as once they have done a successful mission there, the idea that they can do a successful mission even further carries more weight.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Honestly, I love the Antipatria domestic policies because I think they are forging our unique culture, with grand temple of divine marriage and focus on loyalty to the city.
If Exoria were to build a Marriage Temple I would probably pick them, for festivals and cattle routes alike.
Marital reform thing is not really a factor in me voting for Antipatria, really.
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It is the Exorian slate which actually develops our own unique culture, however! This is the one which makes our own local festivals official, and supports the development of our unique, syncretic culture. From charming festivals like the Running of the Weasels, to celebrating a divine partnership of Artemis and Orion with our barbaroi neighbours, it sees us continue to grow and become unique.

The Divine Marriage has been an established part of Eretrian culture for years, I believe we already have a Temple for it, it just won't be quite as big and swanky if we don't choose the Antipatrid option. Moreover, the Divine Marriage is what the entire hill that all the temples are standing on is named after. There's no danger of our culture being lost here, we're basically picking the safe option.

It is the Exorian slate which continues to see our culture grow, evolve, and become more distinctive, and supports this forging of our unique Eretrian culture.

Void Stalker said:
Plus if we want to do the military reforms those tend to be expensive (the one from the first vote in the quest is a good indication and that boost upkeep by 20%) and Drakonia opens up trade which is where we can get the funding from control of Adriatic trade to support military reforms.
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So, just as a reminder here, the Exorian domestic slate opens up more trade than the Drakonid one, and actually brings in about twice the revenue.

Overland trade routes are also not capped, and likely to grow over time, which for the next fifteen years until we can build a larger harbour, is a very good thing from our perspective.
 
Something that could be useful to try to develop if at all feasible is a split of the Xenoparakletor into two separate roles -- one man to speak with Hellenes, another to speak with Barbaroi.
 
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