[X] Plan Steel Ram
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
--[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
Fellow citizens, we have deliberated long and hard, and considered many paths. But sometimes the simplest and most direct plan is the best plan.
It is tempting to want to take the gradual approach, but the longer any war lasts, the more fickle Tyche is tempted to play games. We sought this war because we wanted to become pre-eminent in our corner of Italia. It is folly to seek out war to gain renown, then shy away from becoming noticed. Let us seek a bold victory and the glory and arete that comes with it, and a swift end to the war.
Between Metapontion and the Dauni, Metapontion is by far the most dangerous as a foe, we can agree. If sly and cruel King Ausculos should punish the cities who wished to be our friends, it is unfortunate. But we will retake them later and punish him in turn. If Metapontion should turn on us whilst we fight Taras also, it will be sheer calamity. Furthermore, we need Thurii spears if we meet Taras in the field. There is no choice between them, if we seek a decisive engagement.
The proposals of the League are all sensible and to our benefit, and as I have spoken on them to you before, I will not do so again.
Lastly we come to our commander. If we seek a single decisive clash in the field, the din of shield smashing against shield, the dread spear tearing life from breasts of young men and old veterans alike, can their be any choice at all as to who will lead us? It is not a long game of manoeuvre we are designing here. We seek to knock out the Tarantines' teeth and scramble their brains in one great blow.
Theron Zosimos is the most courageous captain we have, the deadliest and the most fearsome. He will inspire our phalanx to greater bravery against the Tarantines, stiffen our hearts and inspire us with his courage, making us fearsome indeed. We will fall upon the Tarentines in an onrush of steel and win the day. Who else should lead us, but the best of men?
I pledge my rock to him, and when the time comes, my spear and shield also. So speaks Arktos, son of Arktos Arkadios, hoplite of Eretria.
Who shall lift my stone?
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 25, 2019 at 8:59 PM, finished with 114 posts and 20 votes.
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] Greater Iron Storm
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities]. -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
[x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[X] Plan The Inevitable Consequences of Our Follies
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Reject the reforms and bribe the delegates from Ankon to prevent the use of a veto [-15 talents, Eretrian war against Taras is now veto-proof, League in disarray].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 26, 2019 at 2:07 PM, finished with 183 posts and 51 votes.
[X] Plan Steel Ram
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
[x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] Greater Iron Storm
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities]. -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
If you want a straightforward clash I think it would be better to take the option for more hoplites. Losing that much revenue hurts. But not as much as losing the war because our phalanx is insufficient.
If you want a straightforward clash I think it would be better to take the option for more hoplites. Losing that much revenue hurts. But not as much as losing the war because our phalanx is insufficient.
I considered that, but on balance I think that since the development of our public lands took decades, and it would be unwise to undo that rashly now. Also, I'm not sure it makes a really decisive difference to the battle; every extra hoplite is one less psilloi, and our decisive advantage in skirmishers is actually pretty useful in the skirmish and strategic phases of the battle. If we can get Thurii's spears to the battle I think we'll be doing fine regardless.
If you want a straightforward clash I think it would be better to take the option for more hoplites. Losing that much revenue hurts. But not as much as losing the war because our phalanx is insufficient.
Although the hoplites won't be of immediate impact, they can cushion the blow from any casualties at a battle with Taras or allow for the creation of additional armies of hoplites to face other threats.
If Storm of Iron wins it is with our already existing hoplite manpower that we fight with. No additional hoplites from giving land would come.
Speaking of the Storm of Iron, it's the vote for Strategos which currently divides those in favor for a decisive battle. If we were to consolidate somehow, rally behind a candidate, then we would be closer to tieing with the other strategy.
This I believe is untrue. It is stated in the update regarding Metapontion that their neutrality would be required for the Thurii infantry to come to our aid, and they will come if possible:
[] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
The city can call upon its ally of Thurii, which it will do so, but Thurii is blocked by Metapontion which does not want armies marching through its lands.
If we don't secure Metapontion's neutrality and right of pasage, I believe Thurii will support us navally and besiege Herakleia. as @Cetashwayo said before the update when asked. Presumably they might still besiege Herakleia if they do come to our aid; they won't be sending all their men and it's only a colony.
We have an advandate in psiloi compared to Taras, as well. Since this is all taking place after the battle anyway as @Zeitgeist Blue notes, how the Public Lands decision affects our forces compared to Taras is not a great reason to vote on by itself.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 25, 2019 at 9:41 PM, finished with 121 posts and 22 votes.
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] Greater Iron Storm
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities]. -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
[x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[X] Plan The Inevitable Consequences of Our Follies
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Reject the reforms and bribe the delegates from Ankon to prevent the use of a veto [-15 talents, Eretrian war against Taras is now veto-proof, League in disarray].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
"I would rather have been a fool than been correct, but right enough I was. We are at war in a cause whose justice is questionable, and we can only hope the gods will forgive our trespasses and neglect for we must call upon them more than ever.
We neglected preparations and now must choose Metapontion or the Dauni to try to coax to neutrality. Of the two Metapontion is the more dangerous. If they were to combine with the Tarantines the strength of their combined phalanx would be difficult to overcome. We might perhaps be the besieged rather than the besiegers. And if we do not attempt to reassure them of our intentions before the war begins they will give greater credit to the entreaties of the Tarantines later on. If we seek a decisive clash to decide the future of Epulia then that is all the more reason to send stalwart Mnemnon to them as soon as possible.
The Dauni on the other hand may raze the fields of our allies. This is regrettable, but we can ship them grain to hold out. Once we have won the victory over Taras we can then hasten to repay the barbaroi for their effrontery. There is also far less danger from that angle of other Hellene cities being involved in our struggle.
But now that I have raised one issue of half-measures caused by our neglect to prepare for this struggle, I hear other voices calling further for yet more half-measures. We have the opportunity to raise up new men to the dignity of hoplite status. They will not be ready for this season's campaign, to be sure, but a clash of pikes with the Tarantines will be a bloody affair even in the best of circumstances. We will need the strength of shield and spear in the years to come. This mere speculation about encouraging rowers to become merchants smacks of further arrogance, of putting the cart before a horse that might not exist. We need hoplites now, and will need them soon. And I find it unjust to further the stratification of our city, once renowned for the equality of its citizens, to save a few talents. If the loss of one stalwart citizen is to be regretted more than ten talents, then the gain of three hundred and fifty hoplitoi is surely a bargain as we embark on this uncertain course."
The Metapontines are the greater threat here, and assuring them of our continued goodwill is vital. We need access from them and we need their neutrality. Taras' weakness is their isolation, and we must exploit that as much as possible. We also don't want to give Taras the opportunity to find any allies, so defeating them rapidly is a priority.
The revenue loss from the hoplites is painful, but not as painful as defeat will be. The stakes are too high for half-measures.
Whilst the hurt of selling off our carefully built up stock of public lands is sore indeed for me, sometimes the needs of the city must come first. If we are to fight Taras, our losses may not be slight, and we may wish for more stout spears and shields to replace those we leave behind us on the field. On this basis I would be willing to adopt his motion."
Firstly, I'd like to thank those here that respect the will of the ekklesia, even when they disagree with the decision made. I hope that I will act with the same dignity and grace when the day that my desires differ from the assembly comes.
Second, as much as I hunger for the glory of decisive battle, I fear that even if we do triumph that the cost will be large enough as to leave us helpless for the rest of Italia to undo all the work that we will have paid in blood. On the other hand, there is the matter of pride. Taras dare to call us half barbaroi, which is a rediculous insult, and a vicious slight to us all, proud hellene.
And as proud hellene we should extend the same courtesy we have given to our metics to our fellows in the Epulian League. Let us bind the league ever closer through both reform through symposia and glory on the battlefield.
Speaking of our fellow hellenes, I feel more inclined to placating Metapontion than than the Dauni, for the former will be justified in feeling slighted if we place them behind the latter.
This means then, that I am currently leaning towards the proposal of Xanthos and Theron; the Storm of Iron. If we are going to neglect the Dauni, we cannot leave the north unguarded for long. This war needs to be done quickly and decisively; that is why I wanted it to happen now. But we will need men to replace the losses, which is the one and only problem I have with Arktos' proposal.
This means then, that I am currently leaning towards the proposal of Xanthos and Theron; the Storm of Iron. If we are going to neglect the Dauni, we cannot leave the north unguarded for long. This war needs to be done quickly and decisively; that is why I wanted it to happen now. But we will need men to replace the losses, which is the one and only problem I have with Arktos' proposal.
On the basis of his convincing argument, I have adopted @Cavalier's motion regarding the land grants. It seems to be an issue of some contention and I whilst I think we can do larger land grants if we win the war, it is fair to point out that if the war does not go so well, we may well appreciate three hundred and fifty hoplites. Honestly I would prefer we moved forward united than getting hung up on it.
So if this is your one concern, then hopefully that's been addressed.
[X] Plan Steel Ram
[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
-[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
"Though the circumstances of this war are not what I should wish them, I concur with the measures presented by Arktos, son of Arktos Arkadios. We should seek to win quickly, through the strength of our arms. Only thus can we restore the respect and fear of the Italiotes for our city.
And to those citizens still considering the destination of our xenoparakletor, I urge you to consider the course of defeat as well as victory. The favor of the gods for mortals cannot be relied upon. Ares makes no distinctions on the battlefield, where his sons Phobos and Deimos hold sway. Should we falter in the clash of pikes we might hope that Metapontion would come to our aid to restore the balance against Taras. We should expect them to be more favorable if we send Mnemnon to restore our ties of old before the need. They can also offer impartial mediation on points of the peace treaty, should that raise difficulties.
Whereas if we buy the Dauni off for a season we will enjoy no more than that forebearance. If the war goes ill against us they will raid our League regardless of a previous decision. The barbaroi are fickle but not stupid, and these towns opposed to King Ausculus bear us no love in the end. They want to use us to escape his grasp. If their people clamor to take advantage of our weakness, they will go along."
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 25, 2019 at 10:27 PM, finished with 130 posts and 26 votes.
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
[x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[X] Greater Iron Storm
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities]. -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
[X] Plan The Inevitable Consequences of Our Follies
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Reject the reforms and bribe the delegates from Ankon to prevent the use of a veto [-15 talents, Eretrian war against Taras is now veto-proof, League in disarray].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] Plan Ferrous Tempest
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
Whilst the hurt of selling off our carefully built up stock of public lands is sore indeed for me, sometimes the needs of the city must come first. If we are to fight Taras, our losses may not be slight, and we may wish for more stout spears and shields to replace those we leave behind us on the field. On this basis I would be willing to adopt his motion."
Land Policy: In recent years citizens have been falling into debt and losing their lands to larger landholders, pushing them into paupery. Leverage some of the public land the city owns and grant it to poorer citizens so that they may become smallholders capable of affording a basic Hoplite panoply [Raise the hoplite ratio as part of the total levy to 43%, lose 4 talents a turn in revenue, resolve frustration in the city over the lack of land for citizens].
Even in the peacetime election of who to pick as Paraboulos would have led to handing public land to the poorer citizens, although less than now.
I do not agree with Theron. Herodion was also a great Cavalry commander, but he was constantly stuck away from the main army and Eutropios had to lead in his stead. Why not instead make Xanthos Strategoi, who is the part of our Eckdromos and will stay with Hoplite army. That allows Theron to lead the cavalry and skirmishers without worrying about the rest of the army.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 25, 2019 at 10:38 PM, finished with 132 posts and 27 votes.
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
[x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[X] Greater Iron Storm
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities]. -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
[X] Plan The Inevitable Consequences of Our Follies
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Reject the reforms and bribe the delegates from Ankon to prevent the use of a veto [-15 talents, Eretrian war against Taras is now veto-proof, League in disarray].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] Plan Ferrous Tempest
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
Harken to me, you sons of Eretria, and forswear the advice that some mouths might give you-- the same mouths that have hereto led us to this precipice! To bet everything on one titanic clash is supreme folly. In defeat we would be ruined, with both the Dauni at our rear and Taras at the fore. A middling victory too promises little; for our untested men will be reaped even as they reap, and in the balance we shall be bloodied. And what of a great victory? Such a thing would reveal our ambitions to all Hellas and all Italia, and for what? Even if we crush their armies in the field we must need siege Taras, and that siege will not prove easy, or quick-- those who wish to prevent the rise of a hegemon will surely strike.
The wealth of this city lies not in her fields, or in her ships, but in her men: in the humble hoplite, he whose shield supports the whole line! It is this wealth we are given to ration, and to spend it too greedily or rashly will be the city's end. The Deme Drakonia has a sensible strategos, one who understands this. Others say that this rationing and deliberation invites the fortunes to turn, but they are wrong-- chance will not scare away the Athenian fleet, or make Syracuse peaceable, or lead the Messapi to betrayal, no more than chance has striken us with plague, or famine, or statis.
The Serpent's vise is the only strategy that embraces our strengths as a city and pits them against Taras's weaknesses. It is not glorious, yes, to win a war by the strength of one's skirmishers, but glory is a gift for the gods to give, and not for mere men to quibble over, and, besides, victory is glory enough. Furthermore, our greatest weaknesses: the greenness of our hoplites, the disunity of the Messapi: these this and only this strategy addresses. To give up these advantages and charge into battle like rash youth-- for the sake of saving a few coins-- it is foolishness almighty.
This I say, I Skantarios, a hoplite, a farmer and small holder, who owns no slaves and has no great ancestors to claim.
I do not agree with Theron. Herodion was also a great Cavalry commander, but he was constantly stuck away from the main army and Eutropios had to lead in his stead. Why not instead make Xanthos Strategoi, who is the part of our Eckdromos and will stay with Hoplite army. That allows Theron to lead the cavalry and skirmishers without worrying about the rest of the army.
My feeling is that if we're going to a decisive battle we want our best man leading it. Theron will unquestionably inspire the greatest bravery in our men. Xanthos has a lot of great qualities, but Theron is more or less in a league of his own in terms of sheer reputation and ability to inspire men with his own personal bravery and formidable feats on the field.
Phalanx-on-phalanx engagements are a lot of things, but they aren't subtle. They're a long game of chicken ending up in a mutual car crash, where the one who loses their nerve first in the ensuing chaos of metal and screams, dies.
If we're going for Storm of Iron, then our goal isn't a complex campaign of manouvre and inventive tactics, where Xanthos would shine. It's one decisive battle we're seeking. Our goal is to punch the Tarantines so hard in the face that they spend the next twenty years shitting out teeth.
We want the best sledgehammer. That's Theron, unquestionably in my mind.
Plan Victory chooses to negotiate with the Dauni, which, after much thought, I have come to realize is a mistake. Metapontoin is far more important.
Here is my entry into this race:
[X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 25, 2019 at 10:53 PM, finished with 135 posts and 28 votes.
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
[x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[X] Greater Iron Storm
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities]. -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
[X] Plan The Inevitable Consequences of Our Follies
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Reject the reforms and bribe the delegates from Ankon to prevent the use of a veto [-15 talents, Eretrian war against Taras is now veto-proof, League in disarray].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
"There has been fair points made in trusting the Dauni. It would be to our detriment to do so and risk losing the neutrality of Metapontion. I will support Skantarios, for while I believe the arm of our men, we need not bleed them against the rage of Taras. I will not tempt the righteousness of their fury nor the will of the gods"
[] Plan Eretria Unyielding
-[] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 25, 2019 at 11:20 PM, finished with 136 posts and 28 votes.
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
[x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[X] Greater Iron Storm
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities]. -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
[X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
-[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] Plan The Inevitable Consequences of Our Follies
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Reject the reforms and bribe the delegates from Ankon to prevent the use of a veto [-15 talents, Eretrian war against Taras is now veto-proof, League in disarray].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
