Conversely, we could make up the public lands from Dauni and Taras post-war. Those olive plantations in Taras for example. Or perhaps some of the salt mines in Salapia.


It may be a bit harder to build up public lands that are really far from Eretria, though. Just logistically speaking, we'd effectively be absentee landlords, and at a distance where there tends to be a lot of... leakage, in terms of direct revenue collection. Moreover a lot of the stuff you use common land for as a city -and a lot of my family were originally from Newcastle, a city in the the UK which still has its own cows graze on the Town Moor in the middle of the largest city in the northeast- is not just in terms of revenue generation but allowing people to have forage for their animals, horses, etc..

It's possibly, certainly, but it may be quite difficult. There are good reasons cities tended to be pretty jealous with their public lands.
 
[x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[x] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
[x] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
 
It may be a bit harder to build up public lands that are really far from Eretria, though. Just logistically speaking, we'd effectively be absentee landlords, and at a distance where there tends to be a lot of... leakage, in terms of direct revenue collection. Moreover a lot of the stuff you use common land for as a city -and a lot of my family were originally from Newcastle, a city in the the UK which still has its own cows graze on the Town Moor in the middle of the largest city in the northeast- is not just in terms of revenue generation but allowing people to have forage for their animals, horses, etc..

It's possibly, certainly, but it may be quite difficult. There are good reasons cities tended to be pretty jealous with their public lands.

Trade ownership of city lands for Dauni / Tarentine lands with private landowners in order to encourage further Hellenic settlement inland, then?
 
Apart from it domestically setting us down a more land-bound, agricultural route, I'd also point out that creating ever more Eretrian hoplites lets our nervous neighbours, such as, say, Metapontion, see that we are setting foot on a road of eternal land war and expansion in Epulia.

Many of our less well off citizens are rowers and fishermen, people already acquainted with the sea - I'd rather we look to help them acquire pentekontors of their own for trade and commerce, than ever more farms.
 
[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].

[x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
[x] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
[x] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
You guys should pay attention
As this is a vote with many moving parts I am opening it up to plan votes.
 
Trade ownership of city lands for Dauni / Tarentine lands with private landowners in order to encourage further Hellenic settlement inland, then?

I think encouraging the settlement of newly conquered lands by middling farmers to bolster the hoplite class is absolutely sound strategy. This is more or less the basis of the Antipatrid platform, I think; encourage an expanding wave of hoplite-boers to settle the Italian countryside, and it absolutely makes good sense. So long as we don't annoy our barbaroi allies, it will also slowly Hellenise the lands around us. Luckily this war and the long raiding before it should mean there's a reasonable amount of semi-depopulated countryside.

We could also totally run stalworks at Lake Salpia as a kind of public corporation, and plow the revenues back into the city's finances, as well as trading it inland. It just wouldn't quite be public lands in the sense of public pastures or public olive groves. But it's definitely a good idea.
 
I think encouraging the settlement of newly conquered lands by middling farmers to bolster the hoplite class is absolutely sound strategy. This is more or less the basis of the Antipatrid platform, I think; encourage an expanding wave of hoplite-boers to settle the Italian countryside, and it absolutely makes good sense. So long as we don't annoy our barbaroi allies, it will also slowly Hellenise the lands around us. Luckily this war and the long raiding before it should mean there's a reasonable amount of semi-depopulated countryside.

We could also totally run stalworks at Lake Salpia as a kind of public corporation, and plow the revenues back into the city's finances, as well as trading it inland. It just wouldn't quite be public lands in the sense of public pastures or public olive groves. But it's definitely a good idea.
For the era, the polis leasing the lands for private persons to run the saltworks day to day would fit, I believe.
 
Fellow Citizens, we have another difficult choice before us.

Do we trust in our phalanx, and in the blessings of Tyche and Nike, and our strong arms? Or do we trust in guile, in our barbaroi allies, and in the skills of our brave horsemen, the heirs of Herodion? Do we wish to crush Taras decisively for all the world to see, or merely humble them?

If we follow the strategem proposed by the renowned Xanthos and glorious Theron , then we must dispatch our esteemed Xenoparakletor to Metapontion without delay. The reasons are twofold. First, if we seek to defeat and rout the flower of Tarantine courage in the field, we must do so with all the strength available to us. Although we are strong in horse and in javelins, they outnumber us in spears, so we must gain Thuriian aid, which means we need Metapontion to allow them passage. To meet them on the field otherwise is hubris.

Moreover, if we do win a decisive victory in the field, we cannot assume Metapontion will stay neutral. They have clearly indicated their desire to back the weaker against the stronger, and this will undeniably be the case if we sweep the Tarantines before us in an onrushing storm of iron. Cautious Phokion is right to say that Metapontion are the more fearsome foe, compared to the Dauni. So we must secure their neutrality, if this is the course we seek.

If we follow the strategem proposed by cunning Epiktetos, on the other hand, then we may not need Metapontion's forbearance so much. A siege against a more intact Taras may not be such a grand provocation, and we may have more time to entreaty them later. Instead, we could turn some of our attention north, to the Dauni, and deal with them before they become overly burdensome. We will have the men to do so, and our Epulian allies will not need to shelter behind their walls from barbaoi raids whilst their best men are far from home fighting our war.

As for the proposals proposed by eloquent Pylonos, they seem entirely reasonable to me. If we wish our League to be like a true family, with Eretria sitting at its head as the stern father, then we must build it upon bonds of respect and obedience. All of these proposals are too our benefit. Common weights and measures will only strengthen our bonds of trade, and a Panepulian Games held outside our walls will glorify both the Gods and Eretria, as it is held in our honour. A common strategos to head the league forces makes obvious sense, rather than a confused Hydra.

As for this veto, perhaps the most contentious proposal offered, let me ask you this. Imagine in twenty years time that our League has truly grown to be a formidable force, and could offer some thousands of men to our defence. Suppose they vetoed a proposed war, or threatened to do so. Would it be prudent to force them to fight? Would it really be in our interest, to prosecute a war which two thirds of our allies thought unwise? Friends are honest with friends. Far-sighted Pylonos looks forward to a day when our League is not a humble little band, but a mighty force in its own right, and how it may best function then. I say he shows great prudence.

For myself, I must mull over this decision further before committing to a course, and would urge similar thought from you all. A swift victory is tempting, for the best war is always the war that is ended. But likewise, the cunning strategy of Epiktetos may play well to our strengths and allies. Mark my words, and choose alliances that marry well with the strategy we embark upon, just as the divine marriage of Apollon and Athena will bless us on the field!

So speaks Arktos, son of Arktos Arkadios.
 
[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
[X] [Land] We cannot afford to lose so much revenue [Maintain Hoplite Ratio at 40%, lose no public revenue].
[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
 
That's true, but things have changed. The 34 years between the end of the last quest and this one have seen a number of the poorer citizens fall into debt and been forced to sell their land to larger landholders. This is a correction of that trend. This is the helping hand they need to get started again, whether that's on land or at sea.
If I can remember some of my course work correctly, this is at the very least going to become a thing in Peloponnesos. Lots of poor farmers being forced to sell their land, the oligarchic citystates doing nothing to solve this, and the area (probably) being overpopulated due to the Spartans keeping the peace. This led to many now landless farmers, their sons, and exiles seeking their fortunes as mercenaries, with thousands entering Persian service.
 
If I can remember some of my course work correctly, this is at the very least going to become a thing in Peloponnesos. Lots of poor farmers being forced to sell their land, the oligarchic citystates doing nothing to solve this, and the area (probably) being overpopulated due to the Spartans keeping the peace. This led to many now landless farmers, their sons, and exiles seeking their fortunes as mercenaries, with thousands entering Persian service.

If we win this war we'll be well placed to bring them over, then. Lots of Dauni / Messapii and Tarentine lands about to be left fallow. :^)
 
Hey now, it's entirely possible for this to be our last war.
Wow... someone less optimistic than me. Didn't realise that was possible! :p
One thing to consider is that Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with whichever side is chosen. That doesn't guarantee success. Given his bearing and demeanor I'd say he's more cut out to negotiate with barbaroi, though the cunning and treachery of King Ausculos as presented gives me grave reservations about the potential for success there.
That's true but it doesn't sound like he would ever be dealing with King Ausculos. He would simply be dealing with, and reassuring, the members already leaning towards going to Eretria that we're serious about the whole endeavour so they're confident enough to advocate against war. They already want what we want (thankfully), they just need to know we're not screwing them about.
But if the Metapontines combine with Taras they'll have an undoubtedly superior phalanx through sheer numbers if nothing else, and that raises the risk that Eretria might be the besieged rather than the besieger.
I can't see that ever happening. The Metapontines primary objective has always been, and seems to still be, to contain Taras and maintain the status quo between them and Eretria. If Taras were winning the war that would make them more likely to come to our aid, because if Taras defeats us then there's no one to stop them. Right now we have, at best, parity with Taras if Metapontion aids them it's almost impossible to see us winning. Why would they want that?
 
The Metapontians will only involve themselves to their own benefit. Letting Taras stomp us or us them isn't that. If we hold to a siege, they'll let us and Taras butt heads until both are weak enough to need Metapontion. If one of us is losing, Metapontian will attack the other. Either way, we need to keep the Thurii at their backs.
 
One thing to consider is that Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with whichever side is chosen. That doesn't guarantee success. Given his bearing and demeanor I'd say he's more cut out to negotiate with barbaroi, though the cunning and treachery of King Ausculos as presented gives me grave reservations about the potential for success there. On the other hand if Mnemnon just reinforces stereotypes about the Eretrians being half-barbarian to the Metapontines that would be worse than useless; but of the two, Metapontion is by far the most dangerous foe.

The Dauni can raid the lands of the Epulian League and perhaps even burn the groves and loot the farms of our allies, but probably cannot take a defended city. And after our business with Taras is finished that would give us an excuse to fight them, that is if we still have any stomach for further war. But if the Metapontines combine with Taras they'll have an undoubtedly superior phalanx through sheer numbers if nothing else, and that raises the risk that Eretria might be the besieged rather than the besieger. They could also set a precedent for outside cities to intervene, and Eretria has plenty of potential enemies around; Syracuse, Corinth, Lokri, and Krotone at least nearby, leaving aside the possibility of the Spartans intervening in favor of their colony should the Athenians shift their fleets eastward or suffer a local reverse.

What about Thurii checking Metapontion? Or are they too busy holding off the local Brutii?
 
@Cetashwayo while we can't try and have both diplomatic options, would it be possible to send to Metapontion with an oath of friendship, swearing that we won't war on one another? Not looking for them to take a side or let the Thurii through, but trying to reassure them that we aren't seeking to dominate them next.
 
I would note, regarding Metapontion and the Dauni, that the former commits us to respecting Metapontine neutrality which we might not want to do in the future, while the latter commits us to accepting the most useful parts of the Dauni as our vassals in the future which is something we want to do.
 
@Cetashwayo while we can't try and have both diplomatic options, would it be possible to send to Metapontion with an oath of friendship, swearing that we won't war on one another? Not looking for them to take a side or let the Thurii through, but trying to reassure them that we aren't seeking to dominate them next.

Not sure how this would sway them. They'd probably just say no because they mistrust you for allying with barbaroi against Taras and starting a war that could drag in external powers or upset the local power balance. The xenoparakletor is prestigious enough to potentially convince them otherwise, especially as it shows the priority Eretria is placing on keeping Metapontion happy, but some emissaries asking for an oath of friendship won't really influence them.
 
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We'll have to trust Thurii to distract Metapontion so we can see if Mnemnon can work his magic. I don't doubt that he'll get as much of a good reception.

It seems we'll have to leverage our unintentional half-barbarism for all it's worth at this point.

I just didn't know it was so bad until the young lady from the update pretty much damned us.
 
We'll have to trust Thurii to distract Metapontion so we can see if Mnemnon can work his magic. I don't doubt that he'll get as much of a good reception.

It seems we'll have to leverage our unintentional half-barbarism for all it's worth at this point.

I just didn't know it was so bad until the young lady from the update pretty much damned us.

Eudoxia is the mother of Taras' Proboulos and the foremost behind the scenes advocate of the anti-Eretrian faction at Taras. She's not a representative of the entire city, just the bitter memory of Eretrian betrayal. But obviously the peace faction just got totally dunked on.
 
Eudoxia is the mother of Taras' Proboulos and the foremost behind the scenes advocate of the anti-Eretrian faction at Taras. She's not a representative of the entire city, just the bitter memory of Eretrian betrayal. But obviously the peace faction just got totally dunked on.
I see.
Thing is, we've also signaled we're pretty much team Athens at this point or damn near all but there.
 
[X] Plan: Iron and Fire

Fellow Citizens. Taras wants war. Well give them their bloody war. Give them a war which will prove to Italia once and for all that Eretria is not to be trifled with.
I see you fret about diplomatic repercussions if we win a battle decisively, i see you fret about the Dauni and Metapontion and what the Rest of Italia will make of us.
I say to the dogs with it. Yes you raise valid concerns...and still to the dogs with it.
Being overly clever has brought us into this mess, let our arete bring us out of it. A decisive field battle will demonstrate indubitably to the fools in Taras who is the better of the two brothers. The Serpents Vice while giving us victory as well, would not only cement the picture of us as barbaroi lovers but worse, it wouldn't prove our clear superiority over Taras, for it we beat them at sea and at skirmishing, their hatred will not diminish, their spirit will not be crushed. Not it will grower harder yet and they will point fingers and say "look at them, even with all their might they cower like children behind the skirts of their barbaroi allies" and they will cry foul and that they could have beaten us in a fair and square field battle.

No.

If we are to fight Taras, let it be the last war with them. Let us face them in the field. Crush them decisively and break their spirit. If we cannot ever hope to regain their friendship, well then let them kneel at our feet as our vassals.

so speaks Ophelius the Hoplite
 
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
 
I am confused as to why people think we can just recoup public lands with gains in the conflict with Taras, when it would be much easier and better if we are to encourage settlement to apportion those to farmers as payment for fighting.
 
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