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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Manpower. What the city needs above all is people, to work its fields and fight its wars. The emissaries of the city ought to look for healthy, hale, and strong men who would be willing to come to Eretria to work as tenant labourers for merchants and farmers. These men shall girdle the city and be the legs that carry it forward [If successful, higher number of low-skill immigrants with higher overall immigration].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant.
 
It's reflexive, but every time someone says Antipatrid in this quest, a small part of me mistakes it for this Antipatrid (my least favorite of the Diadochi) and becomes irrationally angry.

I know it's irrational, but I just have a grudge against the name itself, because the irl Antipatrids murdered Alexander's son and destroyed the greatest empire the Hellenes —no, the ancient world— would ever know.

Ahem. Excuse me. Something in my eyes.
 
Telamon said:
It's reflexive, but every time someone says Antipatrid in this quest, a small part of me mistakes it for this Antipatrid (my least favorite of the Diadochi) and becomes irrationally angry.

I know it's irrational, but I just have a grudge against the name itself, because the irl Antipatrids murdered Alexander's son and destroyed the greatest empire the Hellenes —no, the ancient world— would ever know.

Ahem. Excuse me. Something in my eyes.
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A bit of bad luck relating to the fact that there are a limited number of good Hellenic names :p
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I agree with this. I think that giving the metics jury rights is a bad idea on its own merits in terms of likely friction between citizens and metics over high-profile court cases, with enough metics and citizens present to form ready-made mobs because Eretrian juries probably number in the hundreds if not higher.

And, furthermore, I think you're right that giving the metics 4/5 of their requests, with the only one not granted being the one that customs held literally sacred would prohibit, is going to make it harder to say "no" to them in the future.
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The basic desire to be represented is something that has led lower classes and less privileged people to rebel across history. The metics, we all seem to agree, cannot be represented directly in the Assembly — this is a step too far. But to deny them even representation in the courts is to invite chaos, unrest, and worse yet, that bane of democracy, populism.

For what do you think will happen when a charismatic leader arises promising them these very things we have denied them? We will be able to deny them — and him — nothing then, with the Metics (and the armies we have made of them) at his back. Better to grumble at ceding them some small victory now, than to grumble in some future time under a tyrant.
 
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[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] Allow them to elect a Prytanis among themselves.
[X] [Standardization] The assembly should be called and grievances accepted only when the assembly decides.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.
 
@Cetashwayo I assume that if we had gone with Demos Antipatria during the introduction, the Metics would already have all the privileges available here? Maybe even significantly more?
 
Spacegnom said:
@Cetashwayo I assume that if we had gone with Demos Antipatria during the introduction, the Metics would already have all the privileges available here? Maybe even significantly more?
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Many of the privileges available here would have been available to them, yes. The Antipatrid would have effectively shifted the Metics decisively away from the general Hellene understanding of them into something more akin to Plebeians, no longer really a "resident foreigner" class but something more. Which dovetails nicely with their general focus on manpower and cohesion over professional armies or large coinpurses.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.
 
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[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.
 
Tally is borked due to differing formatting.
I'll try and count it up and display the real results, not including those with sub votes because they didn't gain enough traction.

The Epidamnians: 2 Against vs 63 For

Immigration:
-39 votes for Loyalty
-15 votes for Talent
-13 votes for Manpower

Prytanis: 63 Against vs 4 For

Standardisation: 1 Against vs 67 For

Marriage: 20 Against vs 48 For

Citizenship: 1 Against vs 68 For

Juries: 29 Against vs 39 For
Adhoc vote count started by McLuvin on May 20, 2019 at 4:18 PM, finished with 688 posts and 70 votes.
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think manpower is the way to go as we gonna need the population in we want to make colonies in the Adriatic
 
Portec said:
Sounds fun. Since the 6 century BC such thoughts were in circulation. With 345 OL should be 431 BC they had already a century to spread.

Would a good enough omake (passionate speech) possibly generate an issue to vote upon? I would give it to you to exercise veto right first.
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What about?
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[x] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.
 
Portec said:
Sounds fun. Since the 6 century BC such thoughts were in circulation. With 345 OL should be 431 BC they had already a century to spread.

Would a good enough omake (passionate speech) possibly generate an issue to vote upon? I would give it to you to exercise veto right first.
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Are you looking to invent a caste system? :wtf:
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
This isn't what I was saying at all, and I can't help but feel as if I'm being projected on. Seriously, how is what I proposed 'chasing Hiero's teakettle?'
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@LonelyWolf999, my reading of what you said was "let's try to work towards creating a nation-state, to replace the Eretrian city-state." Here's where the dictionary definition matters -- I read you as saying "let's try to create the conditions where 'Hellene' is a political identity" -- that is to say, creating a state that represents the Hellenic nation, centered on Eretria.

That is distinct from what I think you're asking for -- what I think you're trying to ask is how do we set up state capacity, meaning the ability to extract more surplus from the territory we govern and better apply that wealth to military and political ends. It's an important distinction -- one of these is a cultural creation, one of these is an organizational effort.

---

When I say chasing Hiero's teakettle, I'm referring to the idea that the nation-state is some way more "advanced" than the city-state.

There's something called "Whig history," which you'll hear r/askhistorians actual historians constantly bitch about -- the idea that history is an inevitable progression towards a liberal-democratic industrialized ideal, and things that are divergences or offshoots of that are missteps. I'd like to avoid thinking about the nation-state as more advanced than our current position at the center of a mandala of city-states, because that ends up restricting our thinking in unproductive way. We don't need to research the Democracy tech to unlock some civic, or conquer some set of territory to fulfill event prereqs to Form Hellas -- we just need to vote and propose options that will lead us in the direction we want to go.

---

That's a lot of preamble to try and clarify what you're suggesting. What's more important, in your mind -- building a shared Hellenic identity to be the framework of a state? or building the extractive and military institutions we need to impose our values on cities that disagree with us?
 
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you know i think the city needs a moat, with the walls the city should impossible for Barbarians to take the city by land and very hard for other greeks
 
Secretariat said:
@LonelyWolf999, my reading of what you said was "let's try to work towards creating a nation-state, to replace the Eretrian city-state." Here's where the dictionary definition matters -- I read you as saying "let's try to create the conditions where 'Hellene' is a political identity" -- that is to say, creating a state that represents the Hellenic nation, centered on Eretria.
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I think the big issue here is that you're doing exactly this - taking my statement, turning it into something else, and then going on a rant and accusing me of doing something tangentially related to my original point.
Secretariat said:
That is distinct from what I think you're asking for -- what I think you're trying to ask is how do we set up state capacity, meaning the ability to extract more surplus from the territory we govern and better apply that wealth to military and political ends. It's an important distinction -- one of these is a cultural creation, one of these is an organizational effort.
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Well, I've never heard of 'state capacity,' and definitely not used in those terms. But you're correct in that I was musing over how to transform our current state into something that wasn't so centralized and dependent on our main city. How to stop being a 'city-state' and become a 'nation-state,' or increase our state capacity, or whatever. I thought my essential point was perfectly clear, so you picking our snipits of my post and ranting about the semantics used is quite frankly nothing less but obnoxious.
Secretariat said:
When I say chasing Hiero's teakettle, I'm referring to the idea that the nation-state is some way more "advanced" than the city-state.
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what.
Secretariat said:
There's something called "Whig history," which you'll hear r/askhistorians actual historians constantly bitch about -- the idea that history is an inevitable progression towards a liberal-democratic industrialized ideal, and things that are divergences or offshoots of that are missteps. I'd like to avoid thinking about the nation-state as more advanced than our current position at the center of a mandala of city-states, because that ends up restricting our thinking in unproductive way. We don't need to research the Democracy tech to unlock some civic, or conquer some set of territory to fulfill event prereqs to Form Hellas -- we just need to vote and propose options that will lead us in the direction we want to go.

---

That's a lot of preamble to try and clarify what you're suggesting. What's more important, in your mind -- building a shared Hellenic identity to be the framework of a state? or building the extractive and military institutions we need to impose our values on cities that disagree with us?
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Are you for real? You're putting so many words into my mouth it's not even straw-manning at this point, it's holding a completely separate argument! For crying out loud, just stop. Please.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[x] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.
 
veekie said:
Sure, if you want to make foreign colonies on our expense!
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Eh, colonies are inevitable. We have Ancona in North Italy, and the idea of setting up a colony in the Venetian Lagoon to control the Amber Trade after we've sorted out our home life is a very very good one.

But even then I see your point, why colonise the entire region ourselves when cities like Epidamnos are there are ripe for absorption...
 
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