[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.

[X] [Immigration] Manpower.

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

I'm basically fine with most of the reforms, but I don't think we should grant too much at once, because they will always have new demands. It's better to hold some reforms for now and be able to grant them the next time around, rather than be forced to grant something we don't want to.
 
"Fellow Citizens, I, Sideros (The Younger), would speak to you!

When our forebears landed here in Epulia, it was not numbers, nor yet esoteric talents which saw them conquer and thrive! It was their arete, their devotion to the morals and ideals of Eretria, to their fellow citizens and what they would build together here, that saw them triumph - over the Illyrian pirates, over the Peuketti whom we now rule, over once-mighty Syrakousai whom Eretria humbled!
If we desired mere husks of men to conduct labour above all, we would own slaves in the numbers that other Hellenes do. If we desired only but great works to be crafted above all else, we would raise up languid rulers above us as the hated Persians do.

But no! In Eretria, I say what we desire above all else is heroes! Those willing to shed their life's blood in service to the polis, for they believe in the ideals upon which Eretria was founded and is sustained!
Thus, when we send forth our Xenoparakletor across the lands, he should seek out not those with the mightiest thews, nor the subtlest of minds, but those with the greatest hearts, willing to devote their all to our polis!

Too, I say that to these men would offer us their all, to fight as heroes for the glory of Eretria, we should extend forth to them the greatest honour we can bestow - that they be made citizens of our great polis, and stand amongst us in all our councils, as equals."



[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant

@Cetashwayo, if we're offering Metic heroes citizenship, would it be possible for us to have a festival raising up a cadre of those Metics already acknowledged as worthy of citizenship for past deeds, to demonstrate our sincerity in the matter and get the pump primed, heading off the problem of lack of Metic voices in the law courts via an influx of presumably mature and undoubtedly loyal ex-Metic citizenry?
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Manpower. What the city needs above all is people, to work its fields and fight its wars. The emissaries of the city ought to look for healthy, hale, and strong men who would be willing to come to Eretria to work as tenant labourers for merchants and farmers. These men shall girdle the city and be the legs that carry it forward [If successful, higher number of low-skill immigrants with higher overall immigration].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant.

Since we came to these shores, all have sacrificed and fought to build our present prosperity. We should not forget those sacrifices, nor should we forget the Gods, upon whose good graces all our good fortunes lie. The Epidamnians helped us in our time of need, and hospitality is one of the greatest virtues. Can we refuse them hospitality in turn? Can we refuse a friend, who may one day be able to do us a good turn in return? To do so is not only blasphemy, it is base folly. If Korinithos wishes to continue their quarrel, let them try. Are we such frightened maids, that we will be dissuaded by hollow threats?

The metics too have sacrificed and laboured much for our city, and proven their loyalty. It does not show weakness to assuage their lesser worries, rather it shows our strength and confidence. We can trust that they will reward such considerations with loyalty, as they always have done in the past. Their grievances are all small and reasonable, save one. If a father cannot protect his daughter, can he really be a father at all? Should we not reward those who have shown their virtue for the city, and have made sure the long-haired Mede or the hairy barbaroi will long remember the name of Eretria? Should a man not be judged by his peers?

All entirely reasonable concerns, and so too is a regular Assembly, which is to our benefit and theirs, and removes the worries of having to wonder when to call for the next one. The only unreasonable demand is a speaker of their own from this Assembly. This sacred space is for the citizens, and to ignore that, even if we wished it, is to risk the displeasure of Divine Oylmpos!

If their request were more reasonable, perhaps asking that their representative could be a former Metic who won their Citizenship through valour in Eretria's service, then perhaps we might consider it. But this must be rejected out of hand.

Lastly, we come to the matter of our new people, those many brave and desperate enough to risk all for a new life here, in Italia, as we once did. This current plague of warfare in Hellas is a sign that the rank impiety and profligacy of this age of lesser men has not gone unnoticed by the Olympians. With our foresight and our hospitality, we may pluck something of worth from this calamity, those men courageous and daring enough to join us here, and build a strong and virtuous city.

Many have said that we cannot be sure of the loyalty of these new arrivals, or that we should seek only those most gifted in crafts among them.

I say that a hungry man with only the clothes on his back is reliably loyal to fresh baked bread, and silver, and we offer both. When they are here and working their own plot of land, or labouring each day for good food and good coin to build a Temple to the gods, will they care overmuch about the petty quarrels across the sea? They will have a new life! If Korinthos or some other city should attempt to send spies amongst them, they will be easily found, for our Democracy is not so fragile as in other cities.

As much as any man here, I am an admirer of those gifted in music, and the making of beautiful things. It does us all well to honour the arts, for in doing so we honour our own mortal existence and make it more virtuous. But we have many gifted in crafts already, and are spending vast sums of silver to beautify our Temple, which will attract more talented men from across the world. What does our city need the most, at this present day?

I say it needs strong backs, and strong hearts, men who can wield the plow, or the dreadful spear if need be! Let us not forget there are still many who would still like to see us driven into the sea! We need to become stronger, stronger, and stronger again, so that we can overmaster our foes and secure a future for our sons and daughters! Every new man willing to bear the heavy Hoplite's panoply, every man willing to plow rugged barbarian soil into a good ordered farm supporting our city, they are a small victory, another inch closer in the mile we have yet to walk to safety and security!

So speaks Arktos, son of Arktos Arkadios.
 
I tend to think that with the domestic Metic situation at the moment, we want to emphasise in our initial immigrant recruitment that to be an Eretrian Metic is to be a cut above, not just anyone who randomly wanders in to town, but someone with a dedication to the ideals of the city, and the drive to excellence that will lead to citizenship.
 
If we select for loyalty then it will probably lead to some cool and interesting things, the option seems to hint as much. The idea isn't unattractive to me.

But ultimately, I think that we don't want to let heroic myths run away with us. Any man can do good service to the city by picking up a plow and turning some Italian countryside into an Eretrian farm. I also truly believe that any Greek we bring here can become a hero in time, or own their own farm in time. That's the virtue of Eretria.

It leaves me slightly uneasy that the Loyalty vote is phrased not so much in terms of positive traits but in terms of new arrivals being inherently suspicious; that is not an idea I really want to encourage going forward. Immigration from Hellas has the potential to make us far stronger, and this war is a golden opportunity.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.
 
If we select for loyalty then it will probably lead to some cool and interesting things, the option seems to hint as much. The idea isn't unattractive to me.

But ultimately, I think that we don't want to let heroic myths run away with us. Any man can do good service to the city by picking up a plow and turning some Italian countryside into an Eretrian farm. I also truly believe that any Greek we bring here can become a hero in time, or own their own farm in time. That's the virtue of Eretria.

It leaves me slightly uneasy that the Loyalty vote is phrased not so much in terms of positive traits but in terms of new arrivals being inherently suspicious; that is not an idea I really want to encourage going forward. Immigration from Hellas has the potential to make us far stronger, and this war is a golden opportunity.
The issue I can foresee there is that if we take in a lot of Metics without any particular unifying factor to draw them, they could instead just bring their feuds with them from their old homes, and we could get a miniature reenactment of the Peloponessian War in Eretria.
 
The issue I can foresee there is that if we take in a lot of Metics without any particular unifying factor to draw them, they could instead just bring their feuds with them from their old homes, and we could get a miniature reenactment of the Peloponessian War in Eretria.

This is maybe a reasonable concern going forward, and something we will want to plan against.

Right now I feel like it's unlikely given everyone coming to the city will find they have new lives and comprise a relatively small chunk of people compared to our existing Metic population, and all the previous distinctions they new are markedly different. Just by wanting to come here, they are kind of self-selecting as people who don't want any part of the war and would prefer a new start. If this was a serious concern right now I think there would have been some indication in the update.
 
Chief of Public Lands: Arsenios Hermagoras (Demos Exoria).
Hmm.

It occurs to me that the Exorians (Exorids?) are the ones who made it a major domestic policy plank to grant public lands to citizens. And one of the few domestic offices they got was the Chief of Public Lands.

Now, that's an administrative post, so Arsenios probably can't initiate that platform all by himself, but we may see some movement in that direction despite the overall Antipatrid victory in domestic policy.
 
@Cetashwayo - If we do do the heroics for citizenship vote, is it (A) applicable backwards for existing, elderly metics who served honorably in our previous wars and (B) extendable to their heirs of the body?

A. Potentially, although we're talking about very few rewards.
B. Citizenship is heritable. Once you become a citizen your children are citizens too. It's a status, after all.

[] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].

You missed an X here.

Whether this applies retroactively to children already born? Uh, guessing yes, could be wrong.

It would be a reward to the father and their children.

@Cetashwayo how strict would the rules be for granting citizenship to metic heroes?

Athenai granted citizenship at rates of about two dozen over a decade. It's not going to be a lot.

Obviously that doesn't mean it can't change, but it would be quite a departure from what the city has done up until this point.

The city has been quite firm about maintaining a single set of courts, and I think it's only fair to live with both positive and negative consequences.

I'm curious as well (and this is for general discussion, not specifically Cetashwayo), if we went the other route and voted not to let them become citizens and instead "celebrated [heroic Metics] by having their burdens and restrictions lifted" could this in the future lead to a new 'class'? Higher than Metic but not quite a citizen? Fewer burdens, more rights, but not able to vote etc.?

The way that "equal rights" for Metic heroes worked in ancient Athenai is that they had their tax restrictions and other limitations lifted and were legally and socially the same as citizens, but had no political rights.

@Cetashwayo, if we're offering Metic heroes citizenship, would it be possible for us to have a festival raising up a cadre of those Metics already acknowledged as worthy of citizenship for past deeds, to demonstrate our sincerity in the matter and get the pump primed, heading off the problem of lack of Metic voices in the law courts via an influx of presumably mature and undoubtedly loyal ex-Metic citizenry?

Such rewards would take place at existing festivals, the city can't afford to have a festival every time something notable happens, oxen are expensive.

Hmm.

It occurs to me that the Exorians (Exorids?) are the ones who made it a major domestic policy plank to grant public lands to citizens. And one of the few domestic offices they got was the Chief of Public Lands.

Now, that's an administrative post, so Arsenios probably can't initiate that platform all by himself, but we may see some movement in that direction despite the overall Antipatrid victory in domestic policy.

That would be correct. Expect an option to pursue this in the near future.
 
The way that "equal rights" for Metic heroes worked in ancient Athenai is that they had their tax restrictions and other limitations lifted and were legally and socially the same as citizens, but had no political rights.
If it's not too much trouble could you recommend some reading on this? Or if you have the time provide a bit more info on it? I'm curious how Metics and Citizens viewed it, what kind of numbers we're talking about, whether it was hereditary (I assume not), whether it was ever expanded on to create a semi-citizen class or if it was always just exceptional Metics and not great numbers of them etc.
Such rewards would take place at existing festivals, the city can't afford to have a festival every time something notable happens, oxen are expensive.
But there are existing Metics who would qualify for the honour? That's good news as we could potentially raise a number of them to Citizens, hopefully mitigating their disappointment at not being allowed to elect one of their number as Prytanis, and (hopefully, as I'm not convinced it's a good idea) not being able to do sit on juries.
That would be correct. Expect an option to pursue this in the near future.
That's awesome, and exactly what Antipatros, son of Lysandros hoped to achieve with his campaigning, although I'm well aware I probably had absolutely nothing to do with it. I was actually planning to make it explicitly about the Chief of Public Lands before you told me it was a purely administrative post selected by lot.
 
If it's not too much trouble could you recommend some reading on this? Or if you have the time provide a bit more info on it? I'm curious how Metics and Citizens viewed it, what kind of numbers we're talking about, whether it was hereditary (I assume not), whether it was ever expanded on to create a semi-citizen class or if it was always just exceptional Metics and not great numbers of them etc.

Always just exceptional metics, we're talking about relatively low numbers, was not hereditary, and was never expanded to that level. At the end of the 4th century BCE Metics merely dissolved as a class as citizenship became less important and purchasable in an Athenai shorn of its political independence.

But there are existing Metics who would qualify for the honour? That's good news as we could potentially raise a number of them to Citizens, hopefully mitigating their disappointment at not being allowed to elect one of their number as Prytanis, and (hopefully, as I'm not convinced it's a good idea) not being able to do sit on juries.

Potentially.

That's awesome, and exactly what Antipatros, son of Lysandros hoped to achieve with his campaigning, although I'm well aware I probably had absolutely nothing to do with it. I was actually planning to make it explicitly about the Chief of Public Lands before you told me it was a purely administrative post selected by lot.

Yes, but it's possible for them to make recommendations, and the ekklesia has to listen, even if they don't want to do it. By comparison the boule is invested with executive power; they can make decisions without the assembly's explicit go-ahead, within specific bounds.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Manpower. What the city needs above all is people, to work its fields and fight its wars. The emissaries of the city ought to look for healthy, hale, and strong men who would be willing to come to Eretria to work as tenant labourers for merchants and farmers. These men shall girdle the city and be the legs that carry it forward [If successful, higher number of low-skill immigrants with higher overall immigration].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant.
 
We appear to be giving the Metics everything they asked for except the Prytanis position.
It will be interesting to see what happens in eight years when the next round of grievances are presented. This precedent will make the Metics less likely to accept refusals .
It may be wiser to refuse to give the Metics jury/father marriage rights this time, so that we will have an easy to grant request next time.
Adhoc vote count started by Chrestomanci on May 20, 2019 at 1:10 PM, finished with 669 posts and 65 votes.
 
Last edited:
We appear to be giving the Metics everything they asked for except the Prytanis position.
It will be interesting to see what happens in eight years when the next round of grievances are presented. This precedent will make the Metics less likely to accept refusals .
It may be wiser to refuse to give the Metics jury/father marriage rights this time, so that we will have an easy to grant request next time.
I agree with this. I think that giving the metics jury rights is a bad idea on its own merits in terms of likely friction between citizens and metics over high-profile court cases, with enough metics and citizens present to form ready-made mobs because Eretrian juries probably number in the hundreds if not higher.

And, furthermore, I think you're right that giving the metics 4/5 of their requests, with the only one not granted being the one that customs held literally sacred would prohibit, is going to make it harder to say "no" to them in the future.
 
And if they bleed for us, indeed, should they not be able to judge themselves and know when, with a regularity, they might present their case before the people of the city?
And they should...if it did not seat them at the same level as Citizens. I would be all for it if it was a Metic Jury, but having them sit together with Citizens is a step too far!
We appear to be giving the Metics everything they asked for except the Prytanis position.
It will be interesting to see what happens in eight years when the next round of grievances are presented. This precedent will make the Metics less likely to accept refusals .
It may be wiser to refuse to give the Metics jury/father marriage rights this time, so that we will have an easy to grant request next time.
Better to give them that and rather continue to use only Citizens as the jury. Not only is the vote closer and easier to overturn, but would not cause as many problems.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should send them away. Every step we take away from neutrality is a step we take to conflict. No matter the cost and no matter how simple it seems to be, we must not get involved under any circumstances in the squabbles of Hellas.
[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].

[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.
 
Question: In other cities that have seperated metic and citizen courts, which court would it go to for cases involving a citizen plantiff and metic defendant (or the other way around)?
 
Back
Top