"Nation-state" is a technical term with a specific meaning, that Skippy alluded to above - a state, meaning an area of territory under a single government, that is composed of a nation - a community with a shared identity.

For example, Greece is a nation-state. Canada is a binational state. The US is a multinational state.

Saying "nation-state" when you mean "state capacity," in a quest as grounded in real history as this one is, is going to lead to bad outcomes because it's an ahistorical mode of thought.

More generally, I want to caution about thinking in terms of linear "progress," with the end result being an industrialized society - that's not happening in the scope of this quest, and we'll see considerably better outcomes if we limit ourselves to what's plausible in antiquity, as opposed to chasing Hiero's teakettle.
I feel like you're kind of jumping to conclusions here. I was using 'nation-state' as in contrast to our current form of government, the 'city-state,' which has a bunch of issues I and others have outlined that'll hobble our ambitions in the long term. Leaving aside the contested nature of what exactly the definition of a nation-state is and when exactly their existence can be attributed (my original point was contesting your claim that such things couldn't exist until mass communication has been invented), I wasn't at all proposing that we should magically become a modern nation or even try to become such. What I was proposing as a long term ambition is to evolve beyond the city-state centered style of government and culture that dominates the Greek world, in my opinion to its detriment. I don't want Eretria Eskhara to ultimately be absorbed by more efficient and advanced states, which I believe is inevitable in the long run if things don't change.

This isn't what I was saying at all, and I can't help but feel as if I'm being projected on. Seriously, how is what I proposed 'chasing Hiero's teakettle?'

It is a very good point that we cannot, and should not, introduce anachronistic ideas fully-formed into a Classical context. For one thing, we need to keep in mind that the people we are playing think very differently from how we do. If we advance a stirring argument in favour of representative democracy and the values of citizenship, they will agree; whilst taking a completely different meaning from it than we would. Equally though, we can make changes, and indeed, we already have done.

Look at Eretria today, her extremely developed and yet accountable state institutions, her virtual absence of slavery by the standards of the period, and the large proportion of Metics and freemen and the encouragement of more. All of these are remarkable to a greater or lesser degree by the standards of Greek poleis from the time period, especially how developed our government institutions are. Even the status of women in Eretria is somewhat remarkable, although maybe less so compared to some other cities.

The important thing is how these changes came about; taking place within the historical context, and for reasons that made sense within that context.

Think about it a little like the evolution of the eye. Complex machinery does just not arrive on the scene suddenly, fully formed. The odds against that are more than astronomical. Instead, you see a series of iterative developments, each selected for in the context they took place, with no overriding design, which come together to build an eye over time. First, because it is immediately advantageous, an animal gains a spot with some light-sensitive cells, allowing it tell between "light", and "dark". Then, this spot develops into a pit with some allowing the resolution of very crude shapes, because that also makes immediate sense within the context it happens. And so on.

So too with historical institutions, a lot of the time*.

This means that we can absolutely make changes, and perhaps end up with an Eretrian state or culture that looks very different from what came before! But each departure, each change, each innovation, each step of our evolution, has to make sense within the context of Antiquity and Classical Greece, and the context of Eretria. We cannot time-warp our own ideas fully formed into the minds of our characters; any new idea has to make sense to them, in their context, as they would think of it, based upon their reasons, motivations, and metaphors for understanding the world. To a large extent, events rather than any kind of grand design are going to drive this process.

Like a rider sitting balanced atop a log in a fast-flowing torrent, what we have is the option to tilt and nudge, perhaps altering our course in the process, although we cannot see past the next bend in the river.

So long as we don't fall off, of course.


*(There are exceptions to this, of course, because humans are intelligent and far more complicated, and will often try complex designs, and so history is complicated. Helpfully, the times when people have attempted to introduce complicated designed systems ex-nihlio on an unsuspecting populace can often be easily identified by looking for the Wikipedia articles that contain an "estimated death toll" column.)
 
I can't say I like the idea of this type of strategic voting where you're not really voting for the candidate you want but rather the balance of power but I guess it might be necessary. I'm not entirely clear on what the consequences are for lesser or greater majorities for the different parties in a single election are. It's not like anyone here is saying we never want to expand the Byssos Port or that we want to give the Antipatrids all the various offices of the state. Could you perhaps be bothered to clarify this issue, @Cetashwayo?

It grants them a higher chance of having candidates sympathetic to them in more minor offices, which means presenting a clearer and more united front and pushing their particular view in as many offices as possible. Which mostly means that every now and then when the leader of a minor office raises an issue that issue will be presented from the perspective of that party.

In the long-term it just gives them more of an ability to reform administration of the state to their liking and to pass things under the radar if we had a situation with more corruption.

However, we are talking about sortition for the other offices here (besides the Metic Prytanis, which is elected by the metics, and the Strategos which is appointed only in war, with ten equal strategoi otherwise) so there's an element of randomness. If a party does really well in an election they have a higher chance of getting their preferred candidate into a lower office, representing the general appeal of that party (and thus that they will simply be able to recruit more sympathetic people). A mixed government provides more variety but also greater opportunities for tension, while a united government is the opposite.

Depending on how the vote here shakes out, though, I might make it a composite of both the xenoparakletor and proboulos outcomes to make the results less monolithic. I don't think people should be afraid of a united government leading to instant tyranny. Ultimately the assembly still holds formal power and the real danger of tyranny in the classical period is by those who do not need the people to take power (so those with forces of mercenaries or massive amounts of money). Many city states fell to tyranny or oligarchy in the later classical period because over-reliance on mercenaries led to a seizure of state by a tyrant.
 
Hmm. About the fact that Athens supposedly lost its position of influence due to Christian crackdown on paganism... well, it's worth pointing out that, by then, Greek and Roman cities had already been devastated by the Antonine Plagues, meaning that there were simply far less people in Athens to make culture then there were in pre-Christian Greece or Rome. Plus, much of the philosophy of Greece was continued by the Byzantines, who oversaw a vibrant and culturally productive empire that preserved Roman ideas of citizenship and Res Publia long after the rest of Europe had turned to feudalism. So, no, I wouldn't argue that Christianity was responsible for the destruction of Greek philosophy. After all, it was Greek philosophy, especially Neoplatonism, that was highly influential on Christian theology. Without Greek philosophy, Christianity wouldn't have existed in the form we know it today.

((This is just an OOC argument.))
 
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
 
I can't say I like the idea of this type of strategic voting where you're not really voting for the candidate you want but rather the balance of power but I guess it might be necessary. I'm not entirely clear on what the consequences are for lesser or greater majorities for the different parties in a single election are. It's not like anyone here is saying we never want to expand the Byssos Port or that we want to give the Antipatrids all the various offices of the state. Could you perhaps be bothered to clarify this issue, @Cetashwayo?
It grants them a higher chance of having candidates sympathetic to them in more minor offices, which means presenting a clearer and more united front and pushing their particular view in as many offices as possible. Which mostly means that every now and then when the leader of a minor office raises an issue that issue will be presented from the perspective of that party.

In the long-term it just gives them more of an ability to reform administration of the state to their liking and to pass things under the radar if we had a situation with more corruption.

However, we are talking about sortition for the other offices here (besides the Metic Prytanis, which is elected by the metics, and the Strategos which is appointed only in war, with ten equal strategoi otherwise) so there's an element of randomness. If a party does really well in an election they have a higher chance of getting their preferred candidate into a lower office, representing the general appeal of that party (and thus that they will simply be able to recruit more sympathetic people). A mixed government provides more variety but also greater opportunities for tension, while a united government is the opposite.

Depending on how the vote here shakes out, though, I might make it a composite of both the xenoparakletor and proboulos outcomes to make the results less monolithic. I don't think people should be afraid of a united government leading to instant tyranny. Ultimately the assembly still holds formal power and the real danger of tyranny in the classical period is by those who do not need the people to take power (so those with forces of mercenaries or massive amounts of money). Many city states fell to tyranny or oligarchy in the later classical period because over-reliance on mercenaries led to a seizure of state by a tyrant.

An idea if the strategic voting/one party sweeping the offices thing continues to be An Issue would be to just move to approval voting, or preference voting, which a lot Quests have used. So you vote for all the candidates you like, or you vote for as many candidates as you want in the order you like them. Not that I need to explain this to a huge politics nerd like @Cetashwayo, but just as a general explainer.

We should probably wait and see for more than one election if it does actually become an issue, though. It's entirely likely that it won't.
 
Last edited:
I quite like the tactical voting aspect honestly, it adds an element of realism I'm quite fond of. And it's something that's been with us for one form or another for most of the previous quests; whether it's the bonuses/negatives we could get for supermajorities and votes that only got a plurality. Or just what we're seeing here, a particular party sweeping the election and all the minor offices or just barely scraping a win and the conflict that can come from that.


On a completely different note, I was having a look at the map and noticed a couple of things I thought I'd point out for the people who haven't looked at it yet.

First off, it looks like Taras has founded a Colony to the southwest of Metapontion so they're actually penned in by Taras now, although how threatening the new colony of Herakleia Lukania is is unknown. This may well motivate Metapontion to accept an alliance with us in the future, especially as our other ally (Thurii) is just a little further down the coast.

Next, when we were voting on our Enemy one of the things noted for Korinthos was...
Now, with its war against Kerkyra and its seizure of the Illyrian colony of Epidamnos, Korinthos has gone so far as to cause a major war in Greece for the sake of its ambition.
It appears that that was one of the things to happen regardless of what we voted for, as literally just across the Adriatic to us is Epidamnos... now under the control of Korinthos.
 
First off, it looks like Taras has founded a Colony to the southwest of Metapontion so they're actually penned in by Taras now, although how threatening the new colony of Herakleia Lukania is is unknown. This may well motivate Metapontion to accept an alliance with us in the future, especially as our other ally (Thurii) is just a little further down the coast.

It was founded by Taras on a site that had been previously occupied by the city of Siris until the end of the 6th century BCE when Siris was destroyed by its neighbors. It is a major problem for both Thurii and Metapontion. Although technically independent it's a dependency under Tarentine protection.
 
It is a very good point that we cannot, and should not, introduce anachronistic ideas fully-formed into a Classical context. For one thing, we need to keep in mind that the people we are playing think very differently from how we do. If we advance a stirring argument in favour of representative democracy and the values of citizenship, they will agree; whilst taking a completely different meaning from it than we would. Equally though, we can make changes, and indeed, we already have done.

Look at Eretria today, her extremely developed and yet accountable state institutions, her virtual absence of slavery by the standards of the period, and the large proportion of Metics and freemen and the encouragement of more. All of these are remarkable to a greater or lesser degree by the standards of Greek poleis from the time period, especially how developed our government institutions are. Even the status of women in Eretria is somewhat remarkable, although maybe less so compared to some other cities.

The important thing is how these changes came about; taking place within the historical context, and for reasons that made sense within that context.

Think about it a little like the evolution of the eye. Complex machinery does just not arrive on the scene suddenly, fully formed. The odds against that are more than astronomical. Instead, you see a series of iterative developments, each selected for in the context they took place, with no overriding design, which come together to build an eye over time. First, because it is immediately advantageous, an animal gains a spot with some light-sensitive cells, allowing it tell between "light", and "dark". Then, this spot develops into a pit with some allowing the resolution of very crude shapes, because that also makes immediate sense within the context it happens. And so on.

So too with historical institutions, a lot of the time*.

This means that we can absolutely make changes, and perhaps end up with an Eretrian state or culture that looks very different from what came before! But each departure, each change, each innovation, each step of our evolution, has to make sense within the context of Antiquity and Classical Greece, and the context of Eretria. We cannot time-warp our own ideas fully formed into the minds of our characters; any new idea has to make sense to them, in their context, as they would think of it, based upon their reasons, motivations, and metaphors for understanding the world. To a large extent, events rather than any kind of grand design are going to drive this process.

Like a rider sitting balanced atop a log in a fast-flowing torrent, what we have is the option to tilt and nudge, perhaps altering our course in the process, although we cannot see past the next bend in the river.

So long as we don't fall off, of course.


*(There are exceptions to this, of course, because humans are intelligent and far more complicated, and will often try complex designs, and so history is complicated. Helpfully, the times when people have attempted to introduce complicated designed systems ex-nihlio on an unsuspecting populace can often be easily identified by looking for the Wikipedia articles that contain an "estimated death toll" column.)

"Look, guys, I just think we should really stop metagaming for a second." :p
 
I feel that's one place where our OOC take on things might influence our IC decision. While you are right that Athens was far from a city of saints, to say the least, it does remain the place where the basic principles of democracy where born. The first city where the vote as a right, instead of a privilege given to those who had money. It was also the place where most of the things we today associate with classical greek culture, wheter artistically or scientifically, where either born or reached their greatest level of achievement. Not for nothing did Athens remain a major intelectual and cultural center pretty much until Theodosius began his massive crackdown on paganism.

Sparta, on the other, hand wasn't simply on the conservative side of things, it was a bona fide proto-totalitarian state and one of history worst case of slave society. The famous quip about Prussia being army with a state was pretty much true with Sparta as every single element of their society was built around making good hoplites, with pretty much everything else sacrificed in the process. They where able to do so because of their hilotes slaves, who outnumbered the spartans by a massive margin and whose treatment was horrific even by the standards of the time.

Now, Sparta defenders often point out to its greater degree of gender equality and while it is, indeed, probably their one redeeming quality I feel its also important to not overstate. More personal freedoms and rights the spartan womens might have had but they remained solidly locked outside the political process and the ranks of the military, ensuring that Sparta remained a clearly patriarchal society.

Which bring me to Erasmos Dion and the Hippeis Eskhata. While the tales of his, and Alkibiades, visit to Eretria where definitely entertaining it remain the long term butterflies that strike me here. Athens actually came quite close to win a decisive victory in the first phases of the war, this might very well tip the scales in Athens favour. I would be especially curious as to how much damages Athens new cavalry can do to the Spartans rampaging through the countryside, especially since one of Sparta traditional achilles heels was their demographic problems making the looses of even a small number of Spartiates a hard blow to deal with. If they sustain enough casualties in that regard it might very well make them decide that raiding Atica isn't wort it, with enormous consequences not the least being that the damages of the Athens Plague might be substantially reduced since Athens herself wouldn't be so overpopulated when it hit.

Now, onward with the matters at hand :)

____

''The gods have blessed Eretria since our fathers arrived in Italy. From destitution they raised us to great wealth, from fleeing refugees they raised us to might and power and from defeated exiles they made use the victors of both the nearby Barbarois and the Syracusans alike. For those blessings they have received only little from us and they now manifest their displeasure to this states of affairs. By reconstructing the Hill of the Devine we will make ammends with the gods, ensure that sunny Apolo and wise Athene continue to favour our city, ensuring it remain prosperous and victorious against all ennemies. Who better to do so then Kyros Gennadios, who has always forcefully reminded us of the need to give the gods proper respect and deference?

While supervising the reconstruction of the Hill we also need to remain ever vigilent to the threats represented by Taras and Syrakousai and gather around us friends and allies to face them on the field if need be. The brave Obander will remake our old alliance with Metapontion and will prove our worth to all italiotes cities by acting against the Brutii threat!''

So spoke the hoplite Nikephoros, son of Lysander, who bore his name for being born soon before the news of the great victory over Syracousai came to Eretria.

[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)

While I understand your point I am unsure if I would really agree with your portrayal of Sparta here. It is my understanding that modern research has painted a more diffuse picture when it comes to helots/slaves in Spartan society (though messana was admittedly largely a hellhole) and it's social structure and make-up is almost certainly not as totalarian as you make it out you be (plus I think even the worst treatment of the helots falls short of the silver mines of Athens). Especially since while at this point in time Sparta still should be somewhat malleable in reagrds of social structure though the historical development indeed pointa toward Sparta buying its own Propaganda if I remember correctly.

But the thing I am most sceptical about is in regards of cultural output since Sparta whole social structure was designed to allow its people/citizens a life of leisure and they were generally the envy of Greece.
 
Last edited:
While I understand your point I am unsure if I would really agree with your portrayal of Sparta here. It is my understanding that modern research has painted a more diffuse picture when it comes to helots/slaves in Spartian society (though messana was certainly )largely a hellhole) and it's social structure and make-up is almost certainly not as totalarian as you make it out you be (plus I think even the worst treatment of the helots falls short of the silver mines of Athens). Especially since while at this point in time Sparta still should be somewhat malleable in reagrds of social structure though the historical development at this point is indeed Sparta buying its own Propaganda if I remember correctly.

But the thing I am most sceptical about is in regards of cultural output since Sparta whole social structure was designed to allow its people/citizens a life of leisure and they were generally the envy of Greece.

Sparta is developing into memetic Sparta as we speak, yes. On cultural output, although we have a lot of archaic material, I can't recall a lot of, if any material from Sparta in the period of the Peloponnesian War, though it may have just been a matter of it being transmitted through oral tradition rather than being written down.

I don't think we can describe any ancient society as totalitarian.
 
You know, it took me an embarrassingly long time to recall that the Peloponnesian war is when this new game is occurring.

When I did, it took me a few more minutes to realize that this is the exact same time period as Assassins Creed Odyssey.

Then I realized I would Love to be able to write, to do some kind of AU crossover omake involving this game and AC: Odyssey.


Anyone else feel up to making an omake like that?
 
In regards to the point Admiral Skippy made about the status of women in Eretria Eskhata, I like to imagine that Ianedar was not the only relatively delicate-featured man with a luxurious fake mustache to appear in the city shortly after a notably outspoken and competent young woman mysteriously vanished, merely the first. And that there's kind of a collective agreement by everyone who matters that as long as any given totally-not-a-woman-in-disguise continues to be good at their usually masculine job and puts at least a modicum of effort into said disguise, everyone pretends that they don't know what's actually going on. Which will give future historians conniptions and likely leads to some awkwardness with foreigners who aren't used to how we do things in Eretria.

Not that this is an extremely common thing, of course. But there's probably always at least a handful of Ariadneians scattered throughout the city.
 
In regards to the point Admiral Skippy made about the status of women in Eretria Eskhata, I like to imagine that Ianedar was not the only relatively delicate-featured man with a luxurious fake mustache to appear in the city shortly after a notably outspoken and competent young woman mysteriously vanished, merely the first. And that there's kind of a collective agreement by everyone who matters that as long as any given totally-not-a-woman-in-disguise continues to be good at their usually masculine job and puts at least a modicum of effort into said disguise, everyone pretends that they don't know what's actually going on. Which will give future historians conniptions and likely leads to some awkwardness with foreigners who aren't used to how we do things in Eretria.

Not that this is an extremely common thing, of course. But there's probably always at least a handful of Ariadneians scattered throughout the city.
I'm now imagining Eretria like this except with less throwing stones and more standing on them.

 
In regards to the point Admiral Skippy made about the status of women in Eretria Eskhata, I like to imagine that Ianedar was not the only relatively delicate-featured man with a luxurious fake mustache to appear in the city shortly after a notably outspoken and competent young woman mysteriously vanished, merely the first. And that there's kind of a collective agreement by everyone who matters that as long as any given totally-not-a-woman-in-disguise continues to be good at their usually masculine job and puts at least a modicum of effort into said disguise, everyone pretends that they don't know what's actually going on. Which will give future historians conniptions and likely leads to some awkwardness with foreigners who aren't used to how we do things in Eretria.

Not that this is an extremely common thing, of course. But there's probably always at least a handful of Ariadneians scattered throughout the city.
As fun as that sounds, I much prefer the more realistic, and blatantly canonical, Advisor role that Eretrian women play. It has been blatantly stated that more than one Speech has been written by a politicians wife, or more than one political gamble advised by the woman of the house.

This combines with a notable expectation of love in Eretria, the Divine Unions are genuinely loving, not only that but Eretria actively hates the idea of rape or forced relationships, Eusebious loved his wife, as did Antipater and other notables.

We may not be as liberal as Sparta, but there is a definite undercurrent of Liberty in comparison to most states, even the Athenian Aristoi noted the prideful bearing of our Eretrian women.

We don't really need to invent conspiracy theories to have an interesting and powerful female culture and population. Even if it's not as interesting or as fun.

Edit: Though I do admit, in my own headcanon, in Athena and Apollo's adventures, Athena does most of the fighting and work and Apollo is a sidekick and the healer for Athena's post battle wounds. So literally have whatever headcanon you want.
 
Last edited:
Along with the Monty Python reference, that was sort of what I was hinting at earlier with the joke about the beard. It would be pretty obvious to those in close proximity to Ianedar that Something Was Going On, I think. A lot of the men I can imagine would be pretty clueless, but not all of them would be, and their wives certainly would not be. But it's rather cheering to me that she manged to find her place in the end, and thrive in it. Having Timaeus as a patron probably helped, as did choosing a role in the Mint; not a direct competition with male forms of prestige like warfare, or outright political contests.

But another thing it highlights for me is that in extremely traditional societies like Eretria, often just fulfilling the forms and roles of gender expression are far more important to people than what's actually under your toga. And so long as Ianedar was willing to play along, well, it seems like a lot of fairly powerful men who would have eventually had to realise something was going on were willing to play along as well. Which is honestly kind of endearing, to me, even though it may leave quite a bit to be desired from a feminist perspective.

It is far from as depressing an end to the story as it could be, and seems like some amount of kindness and compassion was extended, and that cheers my heart.
 
In regards to the point Admiral Skippy made about the status of women in Eretria Eskhata, I like to imagine that Ianedar was not the only relatively delicate-featured man with a luxurious fake mustache to appear in the city shortly after a notably outspoken and competent young woman mysteriously vanished, merely the first. And that there's kind of a collective agreement by everyone who matters that as long as any given totally-not-a-woman-in-disguise continues to be good at their usually masculine job and puts at least a modicum of effort into said disguise, everyone pretends that they don't know what's actually going on. Which will give future historians conniptions and likely leads to some awkwardness with foreigners who aren't used to how we do things in Eretria.

Not that this is an extremely common thing, of course. But there's probably always at least a handful of Ariadneians scattered throughout the city.
We're across the pond from the Abri and Parthini. The modern Albanians are supposedly of long term residence there so this might be them. They traditionally let women pretend to be celibate men so that a household can have a male head when all the genetic men are dead to blood feuds.

Albanian sworn virgins - Wikipedia
 
The phenomenon of sworn virgins is late medieval to modern. I don't think it was followed by ancient Illyrian tribes, or at least we don't have enough information to say.
 
Given a lot of the obvious thematic connotations of that given the virginity element, I'm not sure I'd call it a massive leap forward for women's rights in general.

It's not generally that uncommon throughout many extremely patriarchal cultures that households where all the male heads of the family are out of the picture will end up with one of the surviving women taking charge. That can be seen from as diverse contexts as Tajik tribes in Afghanistan, to dynasties in the medieval, to the modern Mafia.
 
Surely, any of the Demes would now restore the Hill of Marriage to it's proper state! Who among us is foolish enough to deny the remonstration of Zeus himself, for a duty we know we have neglected? We should not let that blind us to the futility of the plans of the Demos Antipatria. They wish to fill the city with metics? How can they do so, when the city is already filled with filth! Instead, we should put the wisest candidate in charge of the city, so he can distribute public land and get people OUT of the city.

[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)

(OOC:this citizen in particular has disregarded the fact that he is voting for an espionage mission using loyal metics while the metics are angry),
 
A question @Cetashwayo.

Has the discus ever been used as a weapon of war? That thing you throw is a few kilos of stone in flight.

Although it is useful for killing fathers when a prophecy calls for it they aren't a very efficient weapon of war compared to a sling which uses the same principle but with better accuracy, less strength required, greater cheapness of manufacture, and greater range.
 
...

So nobody wants to make an Assassins Creed Odyssey omake?

Come on guys! It's the Peloponnesian War! Athens and Sparta kicking the shit out of each other! The crazy conspiracies and delightful story of the Odyssey feels like exactly the kind of craziness our fair city would get involved in!

Just, I'm imaging Kassandra getting asked to help recover some massively valuable stolen goods, and it turns out to be a nobles Speaking Stone. Just, a giant rock with painting on it.

And Kassandra just dead pans about the noble being so upset over a fricken missing Rock, of all things.


Come on, guysssssss!

Don't you want some nifty Assassins Creed Omake's written up for this wonderful story?
 
Back
Top