Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
- Location
- United Kingdom
@Cetashwayo could you please give me a brief overview of the duties and authority of the Chief of Public Lands?
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Rome was an empire, not a nation-state. Nation-states don't emerge until well into early modern times.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Leader of a council that controls and administers the city's public lands that are worked on by tenants. Their goal is to maximize the revenue the city receives from public lands, or else to make proposals on better uses of the public land. They do not have a lot of executive power; they are an administrative, not a decision-making body. They are drawn by lot from male citizens above the age of thirty.
- Location
- U S of A
Whether or not Rome actually met the technical definition of a Nation-State, I think it was clearly more than just a city with an empire attached.
When exactly nation-states developed as a real thing which formed part of the lived experience of people at the time is a topic that actual academic historians have had massive bichfights about. These debates have been going on more or less constantly for well over the last fifty years, in fact, with good arguments made, theories advanced, and examples cited on both sides. Although there are in reality far more than two sides to a question as big as this one. Early modernity is one good answer, no doubt. It is far from the only good answer, and you can find persuasive cases made for place in Antiquity, England and France during the Hundred Years War, and basically wherever the historian you're reading did their doctoral thesis on.
It seems entirely probable historians will still be having massive bitchfights about it fifty years from now, although I'm guessing a lot more of it might be in Mandarin or Hindi.
Whist it would be hugely contentious (and probably wrong) to say Rome was a nation-state, it is certainly true that Republican Rome manage to develop a concept of citizenship as well as "Allied" intermediary status that allowed it to bring in many, many towns and cities throughout Italy to a "Roman" identity or the Roman sphere of influence. This is in marked contrast to the concept of membership of something like the Greek poleis, which tended to be centered around a single city, perhaps with some colonies and a league of tributaries that were much loosely and situationally tied to the mother city. Having such a broad and expanding demographic base did provide Rome with some pretty huge advantages, although they weren't the only ones to do this.
It is also true that by the time the Principate rolled around, Rome was much more of an empire, the idea of "Romanisation" of certain groups of elites nonwithstanding.
- Location
- United States
I'm not sure what dictionary definition of 'nation-state' you're using, but in my context I was disagreeing with your essential point that no states could exist beyond central cities without mass-communication when that's patently false, not dickering over semantics. Not to mention I was referring to more than just Rome.
- Location
- in the trash
I propose the following motion:
All sons of citizens who have not yet come of age must keep a pet weasel, and use it to hunt vermin within the walls of the city, or their farm if they live in the countryside.
JUST DESSERTS FOR YOUR ANTI-FELINE PREJUDICE
Never forget
- Location
- Luton Airport
I am saddened the these upstarts of Antipatrid, Drakonid and Exoria have overtaken the original, true political factions of Eretria, the Tortoises and the Weasels.
GO WEASELS!!!
GO WEASELS!!!
- Location
- in the trash
I am saddened the these upstarts of Antipatrid, Drakonid and Exoria have overtaken the original, true political factions of Eretria, the Tortoises and the Weasels.
GO WEASELS!!!
Obviously the Drakonids are the Weasels and the Antipatrids are the Tortoises. Like this, only painted on rocks.
/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/donkey-elephant.jpeg)
- Location
- Mists of Albion
...Cetashwayo really missed out a major opportunity when he made those shield symbols a Centaur, Minotaur and whatever the hell that thing the Drakonids use is.Obviously the Drakonids are the Weasels and the Antipatrids are the Tortoises. Like this, only painted on rocks.
Unless it's supposed to be a Weasel...
- Location
- United Kingdom
The speech of Antipatros, son of Lysandros, on the election of 345 OL.
My fellow citizens, I come before you today to speak of a matter of great import. But not, as you might think, of the lofty office of Proboulos, nor of the honoured position of Xenoparakletor which I have spoken on before.
Today, I would speak to you of Land.
With our eyes so fixed on the wealth brought to Eretria from our burgeoning trade and dominion of the seas, we have failed to notice the mounting frustrations and growing problems within the citizenry itself.
You may think therefore that I am here to denounce the larger landlords who have found such success in recent times, but I am not. We hold a great ambition for our fair Eretria, and in truth, within us we each hold that desire for success for ourselves as well. And so I am not here to castigate those amongst us who have found success and gained larger holdings and wealth. But how has this been possible, from where has this land come? It is obvious, is it not? It has come from those less fortunate, less lucky, and perhaps less favoured by the gods.
For whatever reason, our fellow citizens have fallen into debt and thus been forced to sell the land they hold to satisfy their creditors. In many ways this is a natural thing, and I so cannot find a reason to blame the landowners who have purchased land where it is for sale. Should they leave it unpurchased and their fellow citizen unable to pay his debts, of course not.
But this is an issue that affects us all, for if a citizen does not own land how can he afford the Hoplite panoply? And how can he ever be content without land to call his own?
It is clear to me this trend cannot continue for in war we are lost without Hoplites and the Phalanx.
The Demos Antipatria will carry the Proboulos, and with the Augurs now known perhaps this is a necessary thing. But I implore you, one and all, when you cast your votes for the Boule and lesser offices think also of the Demos Exoria who have set forth clear policies to rectify this dangerous malaise.
OOC
Demos Antipatria will obviously win the Proboulos election, I voted for them initially and still want them to win. They currently have 50 votes and the next closest is Demos Exoria with... 9.
We know that if the majority in the vote for the Proboulos is too great it leads to a single Demos completely sweeping all the offices and limits the issues we can deal with as the ekklesia (quote below). Plus, in general, a single demos having such overwhelming control has given us problems in the past. So I'm suggesting it would be a good idea for a little tactical voting (preferably for Demos Exoria), not to the extent that we get gridlock or even that Demos Antipatria will be overly constrained but just so it's not a complete blowout.
I'm aware that it's unlikely to be as simple as just increasing the vote share of another Demos and that leading to one of their policies being implemented as my character argued. But it felt like a good issue for him to campaign on and a decent way to justify tactical voting in character.
My fellow citizens, I come before you today to speak of a matter of great import. But not, as you might think, of the lofty office of Proboulos, nor of the honoured position of Xenoparakletor which I have spoken on before.
Today, I would speak to you of Land.
With our eyes so fixed on the wealth brought to Eretria from our burgeoning trade and dominion of the seas, we have failed to notice the mounting frustrations and growing problems within the citizenry itself.
You may think therefore that I am here to denounce the larger landlords who have found such success in recent times, but I am not. We hold a great ambition for our fair Eretria, and in truth, within us we each hold that desire for success for ourselves as well. And so I am not here to castigate those amongst us who have found success and gained larger holdings and wealth. But how has this been possible, from where has this land come? It is obvious, is it not? It has come from those less fortunate, less lucky, and perhaps less favoured by the gods.
For whatever reason, our fellow citizens have fallen into debt and thus been forced to sell the land they hold to satisfy their creditors. In many ways this is a natural thing, and I so cannot find a reason to blame the landowners who have purchased land where it is for sale. Should they leave it unpurchased and their fellow citizen unable to pay his debts, of course not.
But this is an issue that affects us all, for if a citizen does not own land how can he afford the Hoplite panoply? And how can he ever be content without land to call his own?
It is clear to me this trend cannot continue for in war we are lost without Hoplites and the Phalanx.
The Demos Antipatria will carry the Proboulos, and with the Augurs now known perhaps this is a necessary thing. But I implore you, one and all, when you cast your votes for the Boule and lesser offices think also of the Demos Exoria who have set forth clear policies to rectify this dangerous malaise.
OOC
Demos Antipatria will obviously win the Proboulos election, I voted for them initially and still want them to win. They currently have 50 votes and the next closest is Demos Exoria with... 9.
We know that if the majority in the vote for the Proboulos is too great it leads to a single Demos completely sweeping all the offices and limits the issues we can deal with as the ekklesia (quote below). Plus, in general, a single demos having such overwhelming control has given us problems in the past. So I'm suggesting it would be a good idea for a little tactical voting (preferably for Demos Exoria), not to the extent that we get gridlock or even that Demos Antipatria will be overly constrained but just so it's not a complete blowout.
I'm aware that it's unlikely to be as simple as just increasing the vote share of another Demos and that leading to one of their policies being implemented as my character argued. But it felt like a good issue for him to campaign on and a decent way to justify tactical voting in character.
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the weasel-dragon is the greatest and most fearsome of all dragons
In all seriousness, I really like the Demos Exoria idea of setting up a regular cattle drive with the barbarian butter-eaters interior peoples. It's a great way to enrich our diet, build ties of trade and cooperation, and make everyone some money. Perhaps in future it could lead to us selling them salt for cheese making, which given our coastal access and their herds, sounds like a match made on Olympus.
If a strong minority vote for the Demos Exoria for the proboulos goes through, and is seen as a signal of support for this, that's probably all to the good.
If a strong minority vote for the Demos Exoria for the proboulos goes through, and is seen as a signal of support for this, that's probably all to the good.
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
"Nation-state" is a technical term with a specific meaning, that Skippy alluded to above - a state, meaning an area of territory under a single government, that is composed of a nation - a community with a shared identity.
For example, Greece is a nation-state. Canada is a binational state. The US is a multinational state.
Saying "nation-state" when you mean "state capacity," in a quest as grounded in real history as this one is, is going to lead to bad outcomes because it's an ahistorical mode of thought, and because it devalues real accomplishments of the period.
More generally, I want to caution about thinking in terms of linear "progress," with the end result being an industrialized society - that's not happening in the scope of this quest, and we'll see considerably better outcomes if we limit ourselves to what's plausible in antiquity, as opposed to chasing Hiero's teakettle.
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- Location
- United Kingdom
You could always help make this happen. *nudge nudge*
- Location
- United States
I feel like you're kind of jumping to conclusions here. I was using 'nation-state' as in contrast to our current form of government, the 'city-state,' which has a bunch of issues I and others have outlined that'll hobble our ambitions in the long term. Leaving aside the contested nature of what exactly the definition of a nation-state is and when exactly their existence can be attributed (my original point was contesting your claim that such things couldn't exist until mass communication has been invented), I wasn't at all proposing that we should magically become a modern nation or even try to become such. What I was proposing as a long term ambition is to evolve beyond the city-state centered style of government and culture that dominates the Greek world, in my opinion to its detriment. I don't want Eretria Eskhara to ultimately be absorbed by more efficient and advanced states, which I believe is inevitable in the long run if things don't change.
This isn't what I was saying at all, and I can't help but feel as if I'm being projected on. Seriously, how is what I proposed 'chasing Hiero's teakettle?'
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
You make a good point.
[Leukos the accountant is accosted and harangued by his impoverished brother-in-law, Cleon the column-fluter, who is a fierce supporter of Theron, if only because he wants a slice of those public lands. Leukon, his senses reeling from the impassioned but somewhat incoherent rant, changes his vote for Proboulos]
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
- Location
- Europe
I can't say I like the idea of this type of strategic voting where you're not really voting for the candidate you want but rather the balance of power but I guess it might be necessary. I'm not entirely clear on what the consequences are for lesser or greater majorities for the different parties in a single election are. It's not like anyone here is saying we never want to expand the Byssos Port or that we want to give the Antipatrids all the various offices of the state. Could you perhaps be bothered to clarify this issue, @Cetashwayo?
- Location
- Southern Virginia
The key to voting here is not to try to pick out which proposal is "best" or "most efficient" or whatever. It's a question of what Eretria needs right now. And it's also a question of figuring out if a particular candidate can actually deliver on promises, as handing over power to an incompetent with the best proposal is still handing over power to an incompetent and there will be attendant consequences.