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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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McLuvin said:
So, I have a question, is anyone else concerned by the fact the Hoplite's went from 70% or so of our military to less than half?
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This is just falling in line with normal numbers for most of Hellas as Eretria fills out its lands and fewer men hold enough land to be able to fund a panoply. Sparta maintained a force of something like 8,000 Spartiates- on a foundation of 100,000 people, most of whom were not citizens and many of whom were less than human (helots).

Ironanvil1 said:
The Exoria seem frankly the weakest and most confining choice. Their trajectory is likely to take us inland, to ongoing wars and more resentful barbaroi to be held restless under our yoke. I dislike Eretria trying to be Sparta.
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The Demos Exoria option could also open up ways to deal with the barbaroi that does not require being Spartan.

HastyGaming said:
They got their way, no doubt about that. But the cause of that was simply that they were so much more powerful than us, in every way. Us starting with a fleet of 22 triremes instead of 18 doesn't to me seem like it will make a massive difference given they had a fleet of (at least) 60 34 years ago. This isn't me saying that we can ignore our fleet and the Adriatic I just don't believe Demos Drakonia - for all its benefits - provides a naval improvement significant enough that Kerkyra (or anyone of that scale) couldn't still do exactly the same thing to us. Honestly, even the Eretria of now wouldn't have the fleet to challenge Kerkyra of then.
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At the Battle of Naupaktos only a few years after the start of the game the Athenian navy defeated a force of 77 ships with 20. Having more triremes gives no significant advantage at the tactical level; the advantage is at the strategic level, because having more ships and more rowers allows you to do more things at once. Most of Greece's "naval warfare" is incredibly rudimentary compared to the Athenian mastery of the craft, and Athens walked all over them until massive influxes of Persian gold and most of the Athenian rowing class dead at the bottom of the Aegean finally did them in. Having trained rowers is more important than simply having more ships; as Eusebios showed when he used the superior strength and ramming ability of Eretria's triremes to defeat a fleet of 50 pentekontors rapidly.
 
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HastyGaming said:
They got their way, no doubt about that. But the cause of that was simply that they were so much more powerful than us, in every way. Us starting with a fleet of 22 triremes instead of 18 doesn't to me seem like it will make a massive difference given they had a fleet of (at least) 60 34 years ago. This isn't me saying that we can ignore our fleet and the Adriatic I just don't believe Demos Drakonia - for all its benefits - provides a naval improvement significant enough that Kerkyra (or anyone of that scale) couldn't still do exactly the same thing to us. Honestly, even the Eretria of now wouldn't have the fleet to challenge Kerkyra of then.
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With regards to the Demos Drakonia, I think you may be forgetting that the naval bonus is not merely that we start with extra ships, but that our triremes will require less men to man, meaning we can field more triremes than our size and rowing corps would normally allow. This means that not only will we start with more ships but that building up will be easier, as will maintaining the quality of our navy.

In addition, I would like to again point out that our (apparent) enemy-to-be Syrakousai will require a powerful navy to challenge, and that taking the offensive against them will be nearly impossible if we cannot control the Strait of Messina.
 
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HastyGaming said:
We can choose to continue with them, but we can similarly choose to say "job done" and pivot. For example, if we choose Demos Exoria that doesn't compel us to take further military action we could instead simply say 'we're now secure, it's time to focus on trade' and the reverse is true if we take Demos Drakonia. The only exception to this is Demos Antipatria which will require we immediately turn our focus to reform of the metic caste. The others do create issues that have to be solved, but none so urgently.
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Can we kindly stop with the "it's a trap" bullshit? The metics are an issue in any case given how important they are to Eretria. They cannot be neglected under any circumstances. The Antipatrid option actually makes them less of an immediate problem though because a lot of the legwork satisfying their most basic demands has already been done. And they provide both military manpower and economic power so they are absolutely an asset for Eretria.

Cetashwayo did not incorporate any obvious "gotcha" trap choices, at least this early. We're picking between strengths, not trying to dodge land mines.
 
Cavalier said:
The Antipatrid option actually makes them less of an immediate problem though because a lot of the legwork satisfying their most basic demands has already been done. And they provide both military manpower and economic power so they are absolutely an asset for Eretria.
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I'm agree. It's for the later that I'm worried. Their will be a problem to threat so It's better to ont give them more strenght.
 
I do really like the idea of Adriatic expansion.
Some of those Croatian islands seem to have great harbours and actually held some fairly successful Greek colonies eventually
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 15, 2019 at 11:47 AM, finished with 158 posts and 47 votes.
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Cetashwayo said:
At the Battle of Naupaktos only a few years after the start of the game the Athenian navy defeated a force of 77 ships with 20. Having more triremes gives no significant advantage at the tactical level; the advantage is at the strategic level, because having more ships and more rowers allows you to do more things at once. Most of Greece's "naval warfare" is incredibly rudimentary compared to the Athenian mastery of the craft, and Athens walked all over them until massive influxes of Persian gold and most of the Athenian rowing class dead at the bottom of the Aegean finally did them in. Having trained rowers is more important than simply having more ships; as Eusebios showed when he used the superior strength and ramming ability of Eretria's triremes to defeat a fleet of 50 pentekontors rapidly.
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That's a really interesting battle example thanks. Of course I accept that there's more to naval strength that simple numbers, which is why we invested in it so heavily in previous quests, (edit: as apparently what I said after this got cut off) I was simply making the point that while it's an area we need to improve I don't think taking the Demos Drakonia option would put us in a position where Kerkyra (or similar) couldn't do to us again what they did before.
Shebe Zuu said:
With regards to the Demos Drakonia, I think you may be forgetting that the naval bonus is not merely that we start with extra ships, but that our triremes will require less men to man, meaning we can field more triremes than our size and rowing corps would normally allow. This means that not only will we start with more ships but that building up will be easier, as will maintaining the quality of our navy.
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Not at all. I acknowledge (now and in my previous posts) that it has numerous benefits beyond the increase in ship numbers - although I don't list them all off - and while I think that's great and I'd like to accomplish that once the quest starts I still think the removal of an enemy is a larger strategic benefit.
Cavalier said:
Can we kindly stop with the "it's a trap" bullshit? The metics are an issue in any case given how important they are to Eretria. They cannot be neglected under any circumstances. The Antipatrid option actually makes them less of an immediate problem though because a lot of the legwork satisfying their most basic demands has already been done. And they provide both military manpower and economic power so they are absolutely an asset for Eretria.

Cetashwayo did not incorporate any obvious "gotcha" trap choices, at least this early. We're picking between strengths, not trying to dodge land mines.
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That isn't anywhere near what I said. Not once did I say it was a trap and I definitely didn't say the others weren't and I'll politely ask you not imply I did.

To be clear I said that every option creates a problem to be solved but that in my view only the Antipatrid vote creates a problem that needs to be solved immediately. This was said only with regards to our flexibility to do whatever we want at the quest starting or whether the vote (for whatever option) would bind us to a specific path. I simply said that it creates an issue that needs to be dealt with right away, whereas the other create issues that need to be dealt with, but not necessarily right away.

We agree, as does every person I've seen speak on the issue, that they are an issue that needs to be addressed. No one is advocating that they be neglected.
 
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HastyGaming said:
I would go even further than that and say that they don't constrain any of the game, even the start.
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So I see what you're saying here, but I wouldn't go quite that far, which is why I qualified the statement.

Whilst it's true that none of the options bind our hands, all of them make certain things easier for us, which to some extent predisposes us more favorably to those things. It is obviously true that we will be more likely to reach to our strengths when we want to solve problems, and this has knock-on effects. Not that that's a bad thing, of course.

They also all introduce complications. If we choose Demos Drakonia and become a more potent sea power, other regional sea powers like Korinthos will begin to take note. If we choose Demos Antipatria, then the Metic Question looms larger in our politics, although it will likely be the elephant in the room in any case as @Cavalier notes. If we choose Demos Exoria, we have a rowdy barbarian coalition that bring us military strength, but we also need to manage, meaning we will have to direct more attention towards the interior.

None of these are bad things. They're just things to keep in mind.

Personally I would like more trade and greater seapower because I find the lucrative opportunities of trade exciting, and I think the immense military advantage that naval power offers in this era has been slightly overlooked, particularly if we are forced to fight another naval power, as @Ironanvil1 notes.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
So I see what you're saying here, but I wouldn't go quite that far, which is why I qualified the statement.

Whilst it's true that none of the options bind our hands, all of them make certain things easier for us, which to some extent predisposes us more favorably to those things. It is obviously true that we will be more likely to reach to our strengths when we want to solve problems, and this has knock-on effects. Not that that's a bad thing, of course.

They also all introduce complications. If we choose Demos Drakonia and become a more potent sea power, other regional sea powers like Korinthos will begin to take note. If we choose Demos Antipatria, then the Metic Question looms larger in our politics, although it will likely be the elephant in the room in any case as @Cavalier notes. If we choose Demos Exoria, we have a rowdy barbarian coalition that bring us military strength, but we also need to manage, meaning we will have to direct more attention towards the interior.

None of these are bad things. They're just things to keep in mind.

Personally I would like more trade and greater seapower because I find the lucrative opportunities of trade exciting, and I think the immense military advantage that naval power offers in this era has been slightly overlooked, particularly if we are forced to fight another naval power, as @Ironanvil1 notes.
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That's a fair summation of the situation I think. Each option definitely lays the groundwork in such a way that it makes it very easy to continue along that path if that's what we choose to do. Simultaneously, and I assume intentionally by Cetashwayo, they appear to provide us with the flexibility to take one to remove a weakness and pivot (to the extent you ever can pivot away from something in a civ quest) to something else. We just have a slightly different opinion on how quickly we could pivot in such a situation, which as far as politics is concerned is close enough for us both to claim agreement, call it a win and take a victory lap!
 
[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai
Adhoc vote count started by Bulwark on May 15, 2019 at 1:05 PM, finished with 162 posts and 48 votes.
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[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai
 
[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Taras
 
[X] Demos Drakonia

In order to build something of true greatness, you must start with a strong foundation. The foundation of a city is its economy. With a greatly expanded trade system, the people of Eretria shall have much more to work with, and may invest the resources thus gained in armies or diplomatic action at will; the wisest choice, the most flexible choice, the choice that looks furthest into the future, seems to be the Demos Drakonia.

A mighty - or at least, mightier - navy is hardly anything to ignore. One of the most famous battles of our history, that propelled our city ever forward into history, was the Battle of Fifty Masts, an entirely naval engagement. In the light of a choice between a strong navy, more barbarian entanglements, or the gathering of allies for wars we cannot afford, the choice seems clear.

[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.

Perhaps the most reasonable choice. Carthage would align all Greek factions against us, and Athens would align half-ish of all Greek factions against us. We're already doing a fine job at finding enemies, there's no need to go out of our way - and there's something to be said about reliable allies.

[X] Taras.

The obvious choice. Before anything else, Taras is between us and Syracuse. It seems entirely unreasonable to expect to successfully defeat the second before the first... I would argue that this is a matter of immediate priority, even and especially if we choose to turn our attention to Syracuse later. There's wisdom and long term thinking, and then there's simply ignoring a threatening enemy poised to disrupt our theoretical supply chain.

As for Corinth, the affairs of Eretria are no longer in the realm of mainlander politics. We would be far better served in allying Athens if we expect conflict with Corinth, and we would be far better served in not allying Athens right now.
 
I'm going to go for a somewhat different option with my vote, albeit one influenced by my character from the previous thread's feelings regarding both Illyrian pirates and the importance of having our own sources of metals.

[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Athenai.
[X] Korinthos

The first big thing is that I think we ultimately can't stay aloof from the Peleponnesian War, and thus it behooves us to be proactive about our involvement so that we have the best chance to affect its outcome. Thus, we take a course that joins our navy to that of Athens, with the possibility of having shared naval developments with them to the betterment of both our polises. We also can keep our grain route open this way, which otherwise we would either have to end (with concomitant negative diplomatic and financial consequences) or accept that we'll be dragged into the war anyway when Sparta decides it needs to cut off our grain shipments. And, of course, it keeps the Athenians seeing us more as "ally to be courted" and less as "weaker state to be squeezed".

Secondly, this provides a useful narrative for what's been going on in our foreign affairs; namely, increasingly ugly interactions between ourselves and Corinth as we compete over influence in Illyria, with the seizure of Epidamnos as the shot that propels that animosity into full-scale war.

Corinth as an enemy also has the advantage of their needing to ship troops over if they wish to strike at us directly, where the other two options can either march the whole way by land or only need to make a short crossing over a well-charted strait before resuming a land approach.

The improvements to trade are also a major boon, not least because they allow us to make a single simple change to appease the metrics that we literally can't afford with the other two demes: reducing their tax burden. The additional money even after making that change will also help immensely given that we need to do a wide variety of improvement projects right off the bat to make our city look more like the beacon of (Greek) freedom it is and less like a hive of scum and villainy.

And, of course, the trade boost coupled with the Illyrian colonies give us access to resources we simply don't have locally. Like metals (silver and iron the most vital of those, with copper and gold just behind them), or wood, or any other produce to be found within the Mediterranean basin.

Destroying Illyrian piracy would be a nice bonus, of course, one no doubt greatly appreciated by pretty much everyone else in the region and likely to increase overall trade (and thus our own trade) further as it becomes safer to ship things through the Adriatic.
 
[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Korinthos

Reminder that Drako promises BOATS

EDIT: Changing to Korinthos for some mainland Greek action.
 
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People can use the discord server but my experience from last time is that it was simply too hard for me to keep information consistent between discord and the game thread. It's a lot easier in a narrative quest where discords are more of a launching off point for character discussion and vote debates, but when you have a lot of finicky little details it's way easier for me to lose track where I said what for x little detail. So I won't be joining a discord server and questions will remain in-thread. However, if people want to use discords to plot or discuss, that's great, and I encourage it.
 
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Professor Vesca said:
Might I have the invite link to the server?
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I think it's dead.

Anyway, quick napkin math tells me the increased income if we pick BOATS should be quite substantial. We're almost doubling the number of trade routes, and going from 35% -> 45% tariff efficiency is almost a 30% increase, so we're looking at at least 70 talents from trade instead of 30.

Meanwhile, the Antipatrid option represents a 20% increase in taxable population, which works out to about 200 talents from taxation instead of 168.

Tribute from the our subjects is 11-12 talents if you subtract everything else, so as a guesstimate I'd expect the Dauni to about double that at best.

Of course this is just the financial aspect of things, but this is just if anyone wanted a quick breakdown to help assess the choices better.
 
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