I am not really finding this a persuasive argument. Just how are the very real benefits of more people and an alliance against a rival intractable problems?
So, you've ignored the problem with the fact these people would be disenfranchised, aggravating for more rights, that will ether spit on the constitutional ideas of Eretria, or piss off its citizens. And that any benefit we gain from them only makes this swelling, increasingly hungry for more power/rights, underclass have more influence much faster.

You're ignoring the fact that we have a ton of enemies, and making coalitions is just going to increase that number, when most of our enemies are too out of the way for them to help, most notably the Messapii, Dauni and Illyrians if we focus on Italian Alliances to avoid the Peloponnesian Wars. Thus we gain middling benefit, whilst also increasing risk.

I've laid out my points, even explained why Metics rights are not a good thing to go for. I don't know how to explain it more simply, it's a complex issue, and boiling it down to 'More People is always great!' Ignores all the context that has been built up into the update and the Greek Social systems and structures, as well as what makes Eretria different.

One Court, One People, One City, One Law.

Citizenship is absolutely sacred. And treasured. It cannot, and shouldn't be defiled.

The Metics are not the boon you think them to be, this is far more multifaceted then PoC, where More People = Good. Metic courts, Metic social stratification and identity through citizenship are major things here.
The Antipatrid approach would mean Eretria would be likely the most Metric-positive polis in the Hellenic world - they'd already have vastly more rights and consideration as part of the polis than anywhere else, with several Metics being an important part of the foundational instituions of the city (did "Ianedar" leave descendants btw @Cetashwayo?) so immediately clawing for yet more is rather unlikely.
And yet, despite having a Metic representative in the Polis, a citizen, and unheard of amount of representation in day to day lawmaking, despite having other benefits and being well treated constantly, they want more.

The Metics want their own laws, their own systems, or they want more rights akin to those that are citizens. It's mentioned outright in the first page, they are ever hungry for more despite already being given as much as we can give before we start betraying the base ideals of the city, or the ideals of Citizenship.
 
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So, you've ignored the problem with the fact these people would be disenfranchised, aggravating for more rights, that will ether spit on the constitutional ideas of Eretria, or piss off its citizens. And that any benefit we gain from them only makes this swelling, increasingly hungry for more power/rights, underclass have more influence much faster.

You're ignoring the fact that we have a ton of enemies, and making coalitions is just going to increase that number, when most of our enemies are too out of the way for them to help, most notably the Messapii, Dauni and Illyrians if we focus on Italian Alliances to avoid the Peloponnesian Wars. Thus we gain middling benefit, whilst also increasing risk.

I've laid out my points, even explained why Metics rights are not a good thing to go for. I don't know how to explain it more simply, it's a complex issue, and biking it down to 'More People is always great!' Ignores all the context that has been built up into the update and the Greek Social systems and structures, as well as what makes Eretria different.

One Court, One People, One City, One Law.

Citizenship is absolutely sacred. And treasured. It cannot, and shouldn't be defiled.

The Metics are not the boom you think the. To be, this is far more multifaceted then PoC, where More People = Good. Metic courts, Metic social stratification and identity through citizenship are major things here.

And yet, despite having a Metic representative in the Polis, a citizen, and unheard of amount of representation in day to day lawmaking, despite having other benefits and being well treated constantly, they want more.

The Metics want their own laws, their own systems, or they want more rights akin to those that are citizens. It's mentioned outright in the first page, they are ever hungry for more despite already being given as much as we can give before we start betraying the base ideals of the city, or the ideals of Citizenship.

Metics wanting more doesn't sound like a problem to me tbh.
 
The Metics want their own laws, their own systems, or they want more rights akin to those that are citizens. It's mentioned outright in the first page, they are ever hungry for more despite already being given as much as we can give before we start betraying the base ideals of the city, or the ideals of Citizenship.

I mean, it's mostly the fact that the Metics are taxed at twice the rate as citizens and the city could not fund itself if not for those taxes :p
 
Metics wanting more doesn't sound like a problem to me tbh.
....I've laid it out, multiple times now. You give them more citizen rights? The citizens get pissy, and they are the core of Eretria. You give them separation from the One City idea? You get them creating their own laws and culture, one where they are no longer Eritrean.

Overall, I cannot spell this out more clearly without maybe some charts or pictures or stuff.

More Metic rights= Pissed off everyone else, or culture drift and segregation.
I mean, it's mostly the fact that the Metics are taxed at twice the rate as citizens and the city could not fund itself if not for those taxes :p
Yet another issue, one we can't fix without fucking our economy, especially if we bring in more Metics as it just makes us more reliant on their tax revenue.

People keep saying that the Army Reforms will cost too much? Well how about having to give out lower taxes to a large chunk of our population, doesn't matter how many more we bring in, we still lose out when this happens, which happens faster when we get more Metics in the city pressing for it.
 
....I've laid it out, multiple times now. You give them more citizen rights? The citizens get pissy, and they are the core of Eretria. You give them separation from the One City idea? You get them creating their own laws and culture, one where they are no longer Eritrean.

Overall, I cannot spell this out more clearly without maybe some charts or pictures or stuff.

More Metic rights= Pissed off everyone else, or culture drift and segregation.

Yet another issue, one we can't fix without fucking our economy, especially if we bring in more Metics as it just makes us more reliant on their tax revenue.

People keep saying that the Army Reforms will cost too much? Well how about having to give out lower taxes to a large chunk of our population, doesn't matter how many more we bring in, we still lose out when this happens, which happens faster when we get more Metics in the city pressing for it.

I still don't see the issue.
 
Also, @McLuvin, cool down. I appreciate your passion and excitement for the game but it's important it remains civil and people don't get too angry.
 
I still don't see the issue.
At this point I don't think you can see the issue without perhaps doing some reading on Classical Morality and Greek social structures during this period. Do some reading, it's enjoyable, trust me, Classical Greece is always a fascinating period.

Maybe I'm just not explaining it right? Anyone else want to try and break it down to help him?

The Front Page has some brief explanations, read them, they're pretty good, and the books are good to. Maybe they'll help you? Because I don't think you quite know enough yet about Classical Greek society and the idea of Stasis and the Scared, religious, idea of Citizenship to realise how bad the very idea of it is. Especially for Eretria

Edit: Or help me maybe? Apparently I'm not very good at getting my tone and point across here.
 
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Starting Regional Maps
I understand some players had trouble seeing the map because it was just too big. That's perfectly fine; the map is only intended as a reference and I am usually going to be taking some snippets, but so that players have a better grasp of what's going on, here are some regional maps:

Sicily

A mess of medium states brawling for dominance. In the east, the Sikeliote league composed of Katane, Naxus, Leontini, Megara Hyblaea and Aetna. In the southeast Syrakousai and its dependencies. In the south, the cities of Gela and Akragas, and their dependencies. In the north, Himera, and and in the west, Carthage. All these states are Greek aside from Carthage, and the interior is dominated by native Sikels, Elymi, and Sicani. Everything southwest of Sicily is Carthaginian.




Southern Italy

From the toe of Italy going north, Rhegion, Lokri Epixephyrii (an ally of Syrakousai), Krotone, Thurii, Metapontion and Taras. In the interior, the barbarian Lucanians and Brutii, recently expanded into the interior surrounding Krotone and other Greek states, making it far more uncomfortable for them. In the west, Kymai, controlling the Bay of Naples.



North Italy


Etruscans organized into two separate leagues, surrounded by Celts to the north and various small Italian tribes around them. In the south of Northern Italy, the city of Rome, largest city of the Latins, notable for recently destroying the Etruscan outpost of Fidenae on the right bank of the Tiber and little else.



The Adriatic

Along the Coast, the Liburni and various Illyrian tribes. Where the Picentini are, the potential site of the colony of Ankon, if players choose the Demos Drakonia route. Small Greek colonies dot the coast. The interior is dominated by Illyrians, and at the top of the Adriatic the Enetoi, an ancient seafaring people, dwell.



Hellas


In one corner, Athens and its dependencies across the Aegean, in the other, Sparta. The massive Odrysian Kingdom, rulers of all of Thrace, are to the north. Sparta controls the southern Peloponnese directly and most of the rest through the Peloponnesian league. In the east, the massive Persian Empire. In between Sparta and Athens, minor states, like the Akhaians, Korinthos, and Boeotia.



Hopefully this helps anyone and everyone who doesn't have the map or who has the map but who can't zoom. The entire map covers a rectangle from Carthage in the southwest to the mouth of the Danube in the northeast, but it will rarely all be used at once simply because it's just so big. When I need a bird's eye view of a particular place, however, I will simply zoom in and use the map.
 
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[X] Demos Antipatria
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League
[X] Taras

Internally, I'm rooting for the Metic Revolt to be honest. Externally, two buffers with the Syrakousai and a surrounded rival sounds good to me, might let us secure the heel quickly and then focus on the north and west. If we get those two allies to the south we should try to bond them together to some degree so the front doesn't go tits up. I'm wondering if the rival vote will make the chosen city stronger though.
 
Internally, I'm rooting for the Metic Revolt to be honest
....I don't...

...Why do you...

How come?

I honestly don't know why? The Metics would tear down the society we spent years building, and for what?

This is just, Bizarre. Honestly.

I would honestly want to know the reasoning behind this statement. Just to understand where you're coming from here.

Edit; Is it something wrong with Eretria? Is it something you believe the Metics would bring to the game? Is it a desire for chaos? I would honestly like to know
 
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Would you mind explaining? Because that seems like a really weird thing to want.

The poor, huddled masses bribe their agents in the Ekklessia well, obviously. In truth, Magna Graecia is a land of contrasts...

Antipatria is a weird choice in that it enlarges the immigrant population, but probably has the best starting approval from them as well. Just remember to keep the good coming in breadcrumbs and the punishment coming overwhelmingly.
 
The poor, huddled masses bribe their agents in the Ekklessia well, obviously. In truth, Magna Graecia is a land of contrasts...

Antipatria is a weird choice in that it enlarges the immigrant population, but probably has the best starting approval from them as well. Just remember to keep the good coming in breadcrumbs and the punishment coming overwhelmingly.
This doesn't explain your reasoning? Which poor huddled masses do you refer to, the Aktimones? The Metics? Or someone else? How is Magna Greacia a land of contrasts exactly? What punishments are you referring to? And why does the highest starting approval matter when they're already hungry for more before we even get started? In the last thread they already had massive starting approval, they're still demanding more now.

This post just aided my confusion a bit honestly. Could we have some clarifications on some of this? If that's alright
 
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So, you've ignored the problem with the fact these people would be disenfranchised, aggravating for more rights, that will ether spit on the constitutional ideas of Eretria, or piss off its citizens. And that any benefit we gain from them only makes this swelling, increasingly hungry for more power/rights, underclass have more influence much faster.

You're ignoring the fact that we have a ton of enemies, and making coalitions is just going to increase that number, when most of our enemies are too out of the way for them to help, most notably the Messapii, Dauni and Illyrians if we focus on Italian Alliances to avoid the Peloponnesian Wars. Thus we gain middling benefit, whilst also increasing risk.

I've laid out my points, even explained why Metics rights are not a good thing to go for. I don't know how to explain it more simply, it's a complex issue, and boiling it down to 'More People is always great!' Ignores all the context that has been built up into the update and the Greek Social systems and structures, as well as what makes Eretria different.

One Court, One People, One City, One Law.

Citizenship is absolutely sacred. And treasured. It cannot, and shouldn't be defiled.

The Metics are not the boon you think them to be, this is far more multifaceted then PoC, where More People = Good. Metic courts, Metic social stratification and identity through citizenship are major things here.
Having a ton of enemies seems like extra reasons to have more allies as well as superior diplomatic ability overall. Once again, arguing that an option among a list which are stated to be benefits provides only negatives or is strictly inferior (by dismissing it's advantages) and that by extension voters for that options are fools is doing your position no favors whatsoever.
 
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This post just aided my confusion a bit honestly. Could we have some clarifications on some of this? If that's alright

It's been 34 years. Many of the metics from the original game have died, or have been swamped by other immigrants. Further, as the city chose not to rely on slave labour, many metics are much poorer than their Athenian counterparts because they are filling a demand for manual labour.

The opening has the metics agitating for more, but that's because being a metic is a position of economic and social disadvantage. You cannot own land, you have no representation in the ekklesia, you are taxed heavily and yet expected to fulfill military service. Your assemblies don't have a lot of power. Unlike in Athenai, many of you are labourers as well as artisans. If the Antipatrids are chosen, many of the smaller Metic demands (like fairness in marriage contracts or similar fees in the agora) have been met, calming them in the short-term, but in the long-term, the higher number of metics will make further reforms more difficult to resist.

In other words, metics in Eretria are plebeians.
 
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[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai.

Though Eretria has birthed heroes, the polis lies less than what it could be. Let us look to the seas and protect the trade that great Eusebios left us with.
 
Having a ton of enemies seems like extra reasons to have more allies as well as superior diplomatic ability overall. Once again, arguing that an option among a list which are stated to be benefits provides only negatives or is strictly inferior (by dismissing it's advantages) and that by extension voters for that options are fools is doing your position no favors whatsoever.
I never said they were fools, not once, only that it was a poison chalice, or people didn't quite understand what the idea of Citizenship meant, and why exactly you can't just give parts of it up.

And yes, I am dismissing their advantages, because they're temporary at best, you get a boost to manpower and tax revenue, but now you have to deal with more reliance on a underclass of people who will agitate more and more over time for more rights until you give it to them or break society. And giving it to them might break society anyway.

You get better at diplomacy, except it's still the players controlling the options and we've done some pretty big screw ups, I myself was involved in a few, before. So I don't trust our diplo skills. Nor am I going to ignore that the option itself admits that it has a higher likelihood of drawling us into 'Wars Abroad'. It's in the actual option itself. It can't be ignored. And I'm not interested in fighting someone else's war. And unlike the other two options, where the Drakonids beat down the Illyrian threat, and the Exorians beat down the Dauni, the Antipatids don't get rid of any faction that threatens us in any decisive manner, it gives us one alliance, which is with a city that's on the other side of Taras and involved in disputes to its West, and can't help us with the Illyrian, Messapii or Dauni.

The benefits of the Antipatids don't suit our play style form the last two threads, nor does it outweigh the possible costs. The benefits are short term, the negatives? Very long reaching and far more dangerous than the others. It's short term reward, very high risk and suited to a play style we haven't, historically, been very good at.

I'm sorry if I insulted you at any point, but I literally see the Antipatid option as being the only option that could possibly kill Eretria as we know and love it.
It's been 34 years. Many of the metics from the original game have died, or have been swamped by other immigrants. Further, as the city chose not to rely on slave labour, many metics are much poorer than their Athenian counterparts because they are filling a demand for manual labour.

The opening has the metics agitating for more, but that's because being a metic is a position of economic and social disadvantage. You cannot own land, you have no representation in the ekklesia, you are taxed heavily and yet expected to fulfill military service. Your assemblies don't have a lot of power. Unlike in Athenai, many of you are labourers as well as artisans. If the Antipatrids are chosen, many of the smaller Metic demands (like fairness in marriage contracts or similar fees in the agora) have been met, calming them in the short-term, but in the long-term, the higher number of metics will make further reforms more difficult to resist.

In other words, metics in Eretria are plebeians.
And resisting those reforms for a time is necessary, we do not have the ability to go though major social changes when surrounded on all sides by enemies. Literally all sides. If we pick the other options we can give them the smaller reforms to placate them whilst using superior military, or financial, in the case of Drakonids, Might to secure ourselves long enough to be secure.

My issue with the Antipatids is that they want to make this underclass you describe, that is necessary, larger whilst not removing any of our enemies. Essentially increasing danger from within and without on the eve of the Peloponnesian Wars.

Eretria cannot survive reducing the tax, Eretria cannot survive giving them more rights for a good while, why should we give away all the pacifying half measures in the time skip instead of using them, after a vote that pacifies one of our many enemies, either Illyrian or Dauni, until the chaos of the age has left us somewhat alone?

I'd rather not have a civil war brewing in a decade whilst surrounded by enemies during the Classical Greek Equivalent of the Great War happens around us.

If I haven't made it clear that I recognise we're gonna have to give them something. I apologise, but we have to hold out for a while yet, we can't just see them as copy and paste plebs to appease, the situation surrounding us, and the future we face, is a bit more dire in my opinion.
 
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This doesn't explain your reasoning? Which poor huddled masses do you refer to, the Aktimones? The Metics? Or someone else? How is Magna Greacia a land of contrasts exactly? What punishments are you referring to? And why does the highest starting approval matter when they're already hungry for more before we even get started? In the last thread they already had massive starting approval, they're still demanding more now.

This post just aided my confusion a bit honestly. Could we have some clarifications on some of this? If that's alright

If I understand correctly, the city is divided roughly into aristocrats, citizens, and metics. My interests primarily lie with the ekklessia and the citizens, as I am among their number.

The metics have the least amount of rights and wealth, so it makes sense that they would want more. What doesn't make sense is why the aristocracy has so much more than the rest but still wants more. Thus, I believe, as a citizen, the aristocracy are dangerous and irrational and present a greater threat. They've already tried for tyranny in our history. The metics are dangerous, outnumbering the citizens with less to lose, but more rational and easier to please and deal with than the aristocracy. So I'd rather use the metics against the aristocrats, than have the aristocrats use me and my fellow citizens against the metics and ourselves.
 
Seeing as Syrakousai seems to be the runaway favorite for our enemy, I'd like to point out that they and most of their powerbase are on Sicily, which will be hard to threaten without a strong navy. Supremacy over the Straight of Messina will determine who gets to go on the offensive and who has to stay on the back foot. The Demos Drakonia is your one stop naval power shop for the aspiring thalassocracy, come on down!
 
Eretria cannot survive reducing the tax, Eretria cannot survive giving them more rights for a good while, why should we give away all the pacifying half measures in the time skip instead of using them, after a vote that pacifies one of our many enemies, either Illyrian or Dauni, until the chaos of the age has left us somewhat alone?

Eretria will never be left alone. None of the options will leave you alone. Eretria is part of a larger system it cannot escape and if it attempts to avoid it may find the system dropping on top of it like a ton of bricks. However, how Eretria interacts with that system is decided by the options you have. You can choose how involved you get and how over time in different wars and conflicts, but if you attempt to avoid all conflicts you will simply be outmaneuvered.

The reality of interstate anarchy is that isolationism is impossible. States must find allies constantly or die. This is why Eretria starts with three choices for major allies and an opportunity to gain one more off the bat. Demos Drakonia grants you a stronger fleet to assist you with longer-distance diplomacy and war, and Demos Exoria grants you another source of levies and a source of danger neutralized.

The purpose of the Antipatrid diplomatic bonus is not short-term; it grants Eretria far better ability to find allies in Italy. Of course, it has its disadvantages, and both the Demos Drakonia and Demos Exoria are attractive. That's because I made all three options attractive. I also don't think higher manpower is a short-term advantage. Eretria will grow slowly and an increase of more than 3,000 male freemen is a very big one. Who knows how fast Eretria will reach that.

If I haven't made it clear that I recognise we're gonna have to give them something. I apologise, but we have to hold out for a while yet, we can't just see them as copy and paste plebs to appease, the situation surrounding us, and the future we face, is a bit more dire in my opinion.

I'm not sure why you're apologizing. This is your opinion and it's valuable, and I ultimately don't care what options players take. I like all three options and think they're all cool. I made cool little symbols for each faction, even.
 
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