Diplomacy and cash dollars can carry us further then just beefing the military can.
Except it's also inviting civil strife and we have historically, as players, made serial diplo mistakes, right now we have enemies to the North, South, East and West, more enemies than allies. And every large coalition we make risks bringing their enemies into our sphere once again
 
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[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai
 
[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai.

Glad to see this quest here once more. Looks like Eretria's a bigger girl than she used to be.
 
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Except it's also inviting civil strife and we have historically, as players, made serial diplo mistakes, right now we have enemies to the North, South, East and West, more enemies than allies. And every large coalition we make risks bringing their enemies into our sphere once again

I disagree that we made "serial diplo mistakes" given how matters turned out, often because we were willing to use diplomacy; but if you're worried about being surrounded by enemies that makes all the more argument in favor of taking the guarantee of a powerful alliance with Metapontion and a bonus to diplomatic actions. Eretria alone can be ground down under weight of numbers, even if every hoplite were an Antipater and every cavalryman a Herodion; but an Eretria with powerful friends can withstand even its strongest foes, such as Syracuse or Taras, and perhaps both at the same time with the right allies.
 
[X] Demos Antipatria
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai.


YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS! IT LIVES!
 
I disagree that we made "serial diplo mistakes" given how matters turned out, often because we were willing to use diplomacy; but if you're worried about being surrounded by enemies that makes all the more argument in favor of taking the guarantee of a powerful alliance with Metapontion and a bonus to diplomatic actions. Eretria alone can be ground down under weight of numbers, even if every hoplite were an Antipater and every cavalryman a Herodion; but an Eretria with powerful friends can withstand even its strongest foes, such as Syracuse or Taras, and perhaps both at the same time with the right allies.
Eretria can have friends yes, but the only truly powerful friend options we have are Athens or Carthage. Neither of which are reliable in the coming years. The Tarentine's won't forgive us, and if we make allies with the other states further West, we will take on their enemies, which we can't afford to do.

The option you're choosing has several major issues, the Dauni are still unified, and no coalition will fight past Taras to help us with them and Messapii. Any coalition or Alliance we make drags us into more and more possible wars later on that we can't default on because our entire defence policy now rests mainly on foreign alliances.

Oh, and your previous point on using Metics for tax and military manpower? Yeah, they already want more rights, but if they're almost half the city, and we rely on them like that? Won't be long before we have to Choi's Between our citizens pride and rights and them. And there will be blood.

Overall, we've messed up a lot before, allowed the Dauni to solidify, failed to choose a good messenger for the 2nd Persian Wars, failed to choose the right Diplomat to negotiate for the freedom of our peoples in Persia, failed to not get completely outmanoeuvred and forced to break our truce with Taras, and failed to build a strong alliance with other states outside of a time skip and us becoming necessary for them to win their wars. Even then it was noticeably strained.

I do not think your choice, the Antipatids, are at all a stable option, and will only invite Diplo shenanigans we aren't particularly good at, as well as larger than needed social strife and an over reliance on a social class growing increasingly eager for more power.

It is not sustainable. And it ignores the efforts we made to allow Eretria to punch above her weight class. Literally any other option than Antipatids would be good for me, even the Drakonids I would be fine with, I'd disagree, but I'd be fine with it, naval innovations and a trade empire. But I am absolutely opposed to this strange idea that we can handle constant reliance on international diplomacy, whilst also not fucking up our internal situation that add more fuel added to the potential bonfire.
 
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I remember reading this game when it first came out. I was so damn confused at all the Greek history going on, and all the plotting and scheming the players were involved with.

But now? Now I think I honestly want to play. And I have an idea.

[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Taras.


So. My idea.

First off, Demos Drakonia not only massively increases our profit factor, granting us three staple trade lanes and one new luxury trade lane, but it makes our Navy into an actual top tier contender in the current era. I may not know much about history, but I sure as hell know Navy. Our city having a powerful navy very nearly guarantees the ability to withstand sieges indefinitely. Not even mentioning all the wonderful things a powerful navy can accomplish.

Second, for allies. Let's take a step back and Not get involved in the bitch fest between Athens and Sparta. Were a continent away, and what's more, we've got bigger fish to fry in our own backyard.

Which leads me to both our allies and our enemies. Our allies are local Italian cities that have grown strong, and would grant us a strong bordering ally that could insure a specific direction away from the city doesn't point towards an enemy. What's more, our ally also plays for our enemy.

I mean, face it. Last game you guys shoved that knife in Taras back so hard, there wasn't even a hint of blade to be seen. If you were in there shoes, revenge would not only seem desirous, but Necessary. So, by taking up the Taras as our main enemy at game start, while also having a pair of land based allied cities alongside our powerful navy and genuinely strong military, I can see the stage being set for some quite interesting history in the making.
 
So, there's a lot of interesting choices here. We can aim for a strong outward facing trade policy and navy, or an expanding wave of hoplite-Boers pushing inward into the Italian interior to colonise, or to become a powerful military-with-a-state. Does our starting advantage lie with economics, demographics, or militarism?

There are many great choices and arguments here, but on balance I'm going to vote:

[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai

If we are going to fight Syracuse across the waves, it makes sense to me to maintain a strong navy, and moreso if we are to shield ourselves from the Peloponnesian conflict as it spirals out of control. A strong navy can make us a far more valuable ally to other land powers within Italy, as we can support the war from the sea as well as fighting with them on land, so the synergy with our Italian allies here seems worthwhile to me. The ability to better deploy and support expeditionary forces also prevents interesting options.

The overriding reason I would like to pursue this though is trade. The sinews of warfare are infinite money, and money can fund military innovation that may otherwise bankrupt us as @Cavalier notes. Wealth and prosperity will also make us a more attractive venue for immigration for other Greeks; our bustling trade routes are how they will make their way to the city. It is premature to think of any kind of vast mercantile empire here, but this will make a healthy contribution to our coffers, and also lay a foundation for robust future growth of trade income. Even simply as a strong trade hub situated at the bottom of the Adriatic, the possibilities for prosperity here are bountiful.
 
[X] Demos Antipatria

POPULATION IS POWEERRR

ahem

[x] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.

Don't quite want to jump into the Sparta-Athens conflict TBH.

[x] Syrakousai.

The mentions of the Syrakousai being a dark mirror to the Etrerians appeal to me.
 
[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Taras

As much as I would like a good army, I cannot resist the call for boats.
 
POPULATION IS POWEERRR
Except when that population is deprived of rights, knows it's being deprived of rights, whilst still being a major contributor to the city, and is starting to get restless.

At which point population is civil strife. Especially as Eretria absolutely adore its rights and constitution as it stands and likely will resist changing it to the extent the Metics want
 
[X] Demos Antipatria
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai.

Hmm. Surprised Taras didn't wipe the Messapii out. Also YAY! I figured one day you were going to resurrect Magna Graecia.
 
Except when that population is deprived of rights, knows it's being deprived of rights, whilst still being a major contributor to the city, and is starting to get restless.

At which point population is civil strife. Especially as Eretria absolutely adore its rights and constitution as it stands and likely will resist changing it to the extent the Metics want
It's a situation we must adapt to anyway. Why not start earlier?
 
You make speeches IC with a name or something and if you're impressive enough you get a mention, and it works from there.

Most truly major characters however, are made in universe by the GM.

It is also possible for your characters to win minor offices, and if you like, to propose things in those offices. That's partly based on rolls.
 
[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai.

While the Antipatrids are a tempting pick, I tend to think the previous game demonstrated that the ability to leverage the seas was hugely valuable, for mobility and the force multiplication it brought, and as always, gold pays for armies.
The times were we had to knuckle under tended to come from naval threats, such as Kerkyra muscling us to give up Taras. With our hinterlands solidly under our hegemony, any land-based foe has a pretty long way to march to get at our well-fortified city, a city that with control of shipping can stand siege fairly easily.

The real threats are more distant, and if they come at us, will come by sea - it makes sense for us to be strong there.


@Cetashwayo, I wonder, did Sideros get in early on the seasilk trade?:evil:
 
It's a situation we must adapt to anyway. Why not start earlier?
Because we have enemies to the North, South, East and West aplenty.

If we choose Antipatids we still have the unified Dauni to deal with, as well as the Illyrians, and the Iapyges of the Messapii to our south, and the interior tribes, and Syrakousai and the Tarantines and Korinthos.

We don't need about a third of our population being disenfranchised and pushing for more and more rights.

And these aren't the rights you'd expect. No. They historically have wanted a separate court, and separate laws and such. They want to able to separate themselves as it pleases them. Unless we bring them closer. And the only way to do that is to give them more rights that seem more like that of an Eretrian citizen, which pisses off our citizens because that shit is absolutely sacred to them. More so in Eretria than anywhere else, where citizenship transcends class to unify our people.

Essentially, the Antipatids will leave us surrounded by enemies, divided massively internally and relying on allies and coalitions for aid. Coalitions which increase the chances of war kicking off or us being dragged into separate conflicts.

It is, categorically, the worst option. It makes our civil issues worse and less manageable, it makes our foreign situation worse, and the manpower and money it gives us is a poison chalice by making it come from a Metic class that we would then start to rely more and more on, whilst they take more and more liberties, either devaluing citizenship, or splitting themselves off into a separate people's. The only way it works is if the players make good diplomacy choices, which we've historically struggled to do.

Overall, it does not work. If you want to hold on and be stuck playing by the tunes of others, whilst desperately trying not to explode the city, pick the Antipatids. If you want a Naval Empire with an innovative and professional fleet, pick Drakonids. If you want to conquer Southern Italy with an inventive, reliable, military, pick Exorians.
 
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Because we have enemies to the North, South, East and West aplenty.

If we choose Antipatids we still have the unified Dauni to deal with, as well as the Illyrians, and the Iapyges of the Messapii to our south, and the interior tribes, and Syrakousai and the Tarantines and Korinthos.

We don't need about a third of our population being disenfranchised and pushing for more and more rights.

And these aren't the rights you'd expect. No. They historically have wanted a separate court, and separate laws and such. They want to able to separate themselves as it pleases them. Unless we bring them closer. And the only way to do that is to give them more rights that seem more like that of an Eretrian citizen, which pisses off our citizens because that shit is absolutely sacred to them. More so in Eretria than anywhere else, where citizenship transcends class to unify our people.

Essentially, the Antipatids will leave us surrounded by enemies, divided massively internally and relying on allies and coalitions for aid. Coalitions which increase the chances of war kicking off or us being dragged into separate conflicts.

It is, categorically, the worst option. It makes our civil issues worse and less manageable, it makes our foreign situation worse, and the manpower and money it gives us is a poison chalice by making it come from a Metic class that we would then start to rely more and more on, whilst they take more and more liberties, either devaluing citizenship, or splitting themselves off into a separate people's. The only way it works is if the players make good diplomacy choices, which we've historically struggled to do.

Overall, it does not work. If you want to hold on and be stuck playing by the tunes of others, whilst desperately trying not to explode the city, pick the Antipatids. If you want a Naval Empire with an innovative and professional fleet, pick Drakonids. If you want to conquer Southern Italy with an inventive, reliable, military, pick Exorians.
I am not really finding this a persuasive argument (and in fact is adversely reducing my inclination to switch votes). Just how are the very real benefits of more people and an alliance against a rival intractable problems?

Even from an OOC perspective these are clearly put forward as bonuses, and saying they are negatives is disingenuous at best.
 
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The Antipatrid approach would mean Eretria would be likely the most Metic-positive polis in the Hellenic world - they'd already have vastly more rights and consideration as part of the polis than anywhere else, with several Metics being an important part of the foundational instituions of the city (did "Ianedar" leave descendants btw @Cetashwayo?) so immediately clawing for yet more is rather unlikely.
 
The Antipatrid approach would mean Eretria would be likely the most Metric-positive polis in the Hellenic world - they'd already have vastly more rights and consideration as part of the polis than anywhere else, with several Metics being an important part of the foundational instituions of the city (did "Ianedar" leave descendants btw @Cetashwayo?) so immediately clawing for yet more is rather unlikely.

Ianedar was always good """friends""" with Timaeus and at one point Timaeus """found""" a child that Ianedar was """almost""" a parent to.
 
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