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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Shebe Zuu said:
Something to consider with the Demos Antipatria is the question of the increased political power of the metics, and whether that is truly desirable. I feel like it may limit our options in negotiating with them, considering the Antipatrids would have already reinforced the Metic assembly and granting them greater political freedoms may not actually be achievable within the cultural framework of the city. To me, it may be wiser not to have previously strengthened the Metic assembly so that it remains a viable option when and if problems arise.
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Metics will be stronger but it's not going to start a civil war. There is also a lot of value in having extra people; metics are still fundamentally loyal to the city, they just want more rights.

Jemnite said:
Inquiring minds wish to know: when will you drop this thread for the next timeskip and how long will it be?
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who knows

looseanon said:
I will say this: I am greatly disappointed we cannot make Taras at least neutral to us (at least not out of the gate). It makes sense considering we backstabbed them. But I do want a shot at. redemption That was certainly amongst the most scummier things we did. For money no less.
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Unfortunately the combination of that betrayal and the basic geopolitical fact that as the Iapyges decline you and Taras become rivals for the peninsula makes this difficult. You could potentially have them be less hostile depending on your choices, but they'll never be friends again unless some external power enters the region and directly endangers you both.
 
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Void Stalker said:
So for me I prefer Thurii as our ally and either Taras or Syracuse as our foe to keep the local feel. Plus it keeps us out of being a minor partner.

Not sure which of the three demos I favor right now, though increased land power is tempting.
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I suspect that if we pick Thurii and the Sikeliotes, we should be expecting to fight in Italy a great deal, so it seems logical to me to ensure that we have the land power to back up our words. I know @Cetashwayo has written at length before about how the ancient Mediterranean was essentially running on very primitive compellance diplomacy, by which the centrally most important virtue is the ability to make other people get the idea that you are Not To Be Fucked With. So an Eretria Eshkata with a powerful army can certainly make itself a force to be reckoned with on Italy itself, which I think is to be strived for. I admit, the naval tradition from Drakonia is definitely tempting, but for now, I'm banking on Italian hegemony, so for that choice, the Demos Exoria feels ideal.
 
[X] Demos Exoria
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Taras.

Let's squish Taras and meet up with our Thurii friends. We can have a grand time dividing up the lands.
 
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[X] Demos Antipatria

[x] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.

[x] Taras.

I feel like we have to focus our attention on Italy, especially if we use our quester metaknowledge to realize that, soon, a certain tribe of swamp hicks are going to become significantly more powerful than they should be...
 
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This is the quest that inspired me to join this site, the quest that I have followed and enjoyed and is, without a doubt, my absolute favourite.

I am so happy right now.

[x] Demos Exoria
[x] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League

Illyria is nice and all, but South Italian Hegemony sounds much much nicer.
 
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[X] Demos Antipatria
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League
[X] Syrakousai.
 
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[X] Demos Antipatria
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai.

I think we should not underestimate the value of Antipatrid bonuses. Eretria ended the hegemony of Syracuse the first time, gaining great renown among the Hellenes of Italia and Sicily, by cobbling together a coalition of Ionian and Dorian alike. The first desperate war with the Iapyges, the founding of the Epulian League, the crafting of a reliable barbaroi vassal from the Peuketti, all were accomplished with valor in the field and wisdom in counsel and negotiation. The bonus that they give to bringing coalitions together, while harder perhaps to quantify than the military advantages of the Exoria and Drakonia, is still in the same league; and whereas military might is ultimately limited by the physical resources of the city, a coalition can bring together the resources of many cities and thereby overthrow a foe that would otherwise unfailingly overpower Eretria.

Also while I doubt the Peloponnesian War will leave us alone, there is something to be said for the obvious synergy that the diplomatic advantage of the Antipatrid choice (and the existing alliance with Metapontion) gives to befriending Thurii and enhances further still the meaningfulness of the rivalry with Syracuse.
 
Reading through the update again, anyone else noticed that we apparently created a second Divine Marriage Between Poseidon and Demeter?

And we seem to have kicked off Ancestor cults a good century or two early.

I'm pretty sure we'd be hit with a Hellenic crusade if the mainland got some solid details of the shot we pull. Unfortunately for them, the First Divine marriage was pretty damn popular in South Italy, and I've no doubt our Hero Cults and Second Divine Marriage will spread too.
 
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Secretariat said:
[]...Athenai. One might have wondered what it was that brought Athenai and Eretrian together. Was it a mutual guilt over the failure of the former to save the latter, who promptly fled, when Darius the Mede came with his terrible ships? This common history bound the cities together, but it was Eretrian support to Athens during their first great conflict with Sparta, and their shipments of grain to the city, that truly ingratiated Athens to the Eretrians. Now no longer seeing Eretria simply as a potential ally for its incessant wars with Sparta but as an affectionate friend, the city may look less with covetous eyes at rich Epulia. In turn, however, this alliance and friendship has also created the potential for much risk, as Eretria could now be pulled into the Peloponnesian war...
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Missing an X here.
 
I honestly don't really know much about this time period other than some basic knowledge of the Peloponnesian wars.

Rome still won't be an issue for quite some time they're having they're issues with the Etruscan at the moment but this century will see them start to gain power if things go somewhat historically in that region.

Not that they necessarily will but the Peloponnesian wars are happening even with our butterflies so who knows.
 
[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai.

Still undecided on Demos as all three are interesting options for the time but would prefer a more Italia experience to continue.

Edit- Added in Drakonia for now, time to rule the waves! Or at least the local ones.
Adhoc vote count started by Void Stalker on May 14, 2019 at 9:49 PM, finished with 62 posts and 22 votes.
  • [x] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
    [x] Syrakousai.​
    [X] Demos Antipatria
    [X] Demos Drakonia
    [x] Demos Exoria
    [X] Taras.
    [x] Syrakousai. There are many reasons for Syrakousai and Eretria to despise each other. From the exploits of Herodion, who rode with Carthage against this great Sicilian city, to the harboring of Ionian refugees from Syrakousai by Eretria after the refugees were expelled from their cities, the two regional hegemons have become implacable enemies. Syrakousai, though a democracy, seeks to restore its empire in Sicily by making war against its neighbors; Eretria has, time and again, prevented that by funding its enemies and promoting the formation of new coalitions against it. Now, with new leaders in Syrakousai and a stronger diplomatic focus in the city, it aims to turn Sicily against Carthage and the Sikeliote League in order to finally break its power, and perhaps, to cross over into Italy and take revenge...
    [x] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League. Thurii was a new state, founded by Athenians only fifteen years prior, yet like Eretria it had propelled itself to the pinnacle of power in its region. Thanks to negotiations and diplomacy between the two Italian powers, and the addition of the Sikeliote League composed of a number of free Sicilian cities, an Ionian alliance has formed in Italy. The alliance was also forged on bounds of mutual respect; the Sikeliotes remembered Herodion's battle against the Carthaginians and the Eretrians were aligned against Thurii's enemy, Taras. Though not necessarily as powerful as Carthage or Athens, this alliance still holds much strength, more reliability, and allowed Eretria to avoid the threat of being pulled into major conflicts, except for those conducted solely on Italian soil...
    [X] ...The City of Carthage
    [X] Korinthos.
    [X]...Athenai. One might have wondered what it was that brought Athenai and Eretrian together. Was it a mutual guilt over the failure of the former to save the latter, who promptly fled, when Darius the Mede came with his terrible ships? This common history bound the cities together, but it was Eretrian support to Athens during their first great conflict with Sparta, and their shipments of grain to the city, that truly ingratiated Athens to the Eretrians. Now no longer seeing Eretria simply as a potential ally for its incessant wars with Sparta but as an affectionate friend, the city may look less with covetous eyes at rich Epulia. In turn, however, this alliance and friendship has also created the potential for much risk, as Eretria could now be pulled into the Peloponnesian war...
    [X] Carthage
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Cavalier said:
The bonus that they give to bringing coalitions together, while harder perhaps to quantify than the military advantages of the Exoria and Drakonia, is still in the same league; and whereas military might is ultimately limited by the physical resources of the city, a coalition can bring together the resources of many cities and thereby overthrow a foe that would otherwise unfailingly overpower Eretria.
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Here is my issue with this. It relies on us being able to charm our allies consistently, when we've had multiple diplo blunders in the past. And it also seems to ignore the fact that, if one has many allies, one also has many enemies.

We may not be able to use allies as a crutch forever, and I would prefer to have some more independent strength just in case.

Further, it was never manpower or diplomacy that won Eretria her wars, it was innovation and willingness to use new techniques. I'd rather we advance our land or naval techniques for war, rather than allow us to stagnate and rely on the strength of others.

Further I will note that if we choose this option, we have a larger population of Metics, who will want ever more rights, until they may demand access to citizenship. Which we cannot allow. No, lessen the amount of Metics for now, and keep the ability to bribe them with lesser reforms in the back pocket. Rather than spending all we have to gain manpower that may tear us limb from limb later.

The Antipatids leave us reliant not on the strength of Eretria, but on the strength of Metics and Outsiders. I say no to this. Let us turn to our own strength, so that we will stand strong, even should we lose our allies, and make our allies more eager to cling to us because of this strength.
 
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The map seems to be broken for me, it's saying bandwith limit exceeded and I've tried it both on pc and my phone.
 
Void Stalker said:
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai.

Still undecided on Demos as all three are interesting options for the time but would prefer a more Italia experience to continue.
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You'd probably want to choose Antipatids or Exoria then, Exoria focuses on land warfare and local security and Antipatids on immigration and coalition building attempts
 
McLuvin said:
Here is my issue with this. It relies on us being able to charm our allies consistently, when we've had multiple diplo blunders in the past. And it also seems to ignore the fact that, if one has many allies, one also has many enemies.

We may not be able to use allies as a crutch forever, and I would prefer to have some more independent strength just in case.

Further, it was never manpower or diplomacy that won Eretria her wars, it was innovation and willingness to use new techniques. I'd rather we advance our land or naval techniques for war, rather than allow us to stagnate and rely on the strength of others.

Further I will note that if we choose this option, we have a larger population of Metics, who will want ever more rights, until they may demand access to citizenship. Which we cannot allow. No, lessen the amount of Metics for now, and keep the ability to bribe them with lesser reforms in the back pocket. Rather than spending all we have to gain manpower that may tear us limb from limb later.

The Antipatids leave us reliant not on the strength of Eretria, but on the strength of Metics and Outsiders. I say no to this. Let us turn to our own strength, so that we will stand strong, even should we lose our allies, and make our allies more eager to cling to us because of this strength.
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The children of these metics are already Eretrioi. If we give these metics the gift of citizenship in the poleis, we will reap in gratitude what we spend in grain.
 
The metics aren't agitating for citizenship any time this century, at least, and have proven to be as loyal and reliable soldiers as Eretria's own citizenry. Without them we'd never have had the sheer numbers we needed to punch as hard as we have, and in so far as war is a numbers game having an extra 4000 adult males available for military service is quite a boon - especially as the Exoria, which is leading, greatly increases military costs without any attendant increase in revenue besides tribute from the Dauni which is liable to be... underwhelming. Innovation may be important in war, but so is money - and money can buy room for innovation being a small elite can't.
 
Secretariat said:
The children of these metics are already Eretrioi. If we give these metics the gift of citizenship in the poleis, we will reap in gratitude what we spend in grain.
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You wish to defile Eretria citizenships by spreading it out amongst the Metics? You will wish to spit on the scared institutions? You truly think any son of Eretria would allow this without bloodshed and war? You don't do credit to your Antipatids agenda. You only harm it.
Cavalier said:
The metics aren't agitating for citizenship any time this century, at least, and have proven to be as loyal and reliable soldiers as Eretria's own citizenry. Without them we'd never have had the sheer numbers we needed to punch as hard as we have, and in so far as war is a numbers game having an extra 4000 adult males available for military service is quite a boon - especially as the Exoria, which is leading, greatly increases military costs without any attendant increase in revenue besides tribute from the Dauni which is liable to be... underwhelming. Innovation may be important in war, but so is money - and money can buy room for innovation being a small elite can't.
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And money didn't save us from our previous wars, money from these new peoples will have to go into new public works and other such things to help them, already there is a clamour amongst the Metics for more rights, this will happen either way, yet you dismiss this issue? We've seen the amount of upkeep the Exoria cost already, the further reforms are just a bonus, one I'm sure the treasury can handle, whilst allowing us to keep the quality of troops that have propelled Eretria ever higher, and allowed it to truly punch above its weight.

We were almost always outnumbered, but it was the unique institutions you claim we can simply 'buy' that kept us alive and ahead. Eretria survives because it innovates, not because it was the richest or the largest. But because it was the smartest. And we will hold to that tradition! Herodion has never steered us wrong, his reforms built the cities military into what it is, allow him to finish his duty!

You invite civil strife! You invite a horde hungry for that's which we can never give them! And you expect us to benefit? You expect us to rely, not on citizen soldiers, but on Metics and foreigners for our armies backbone.

No. That is not what a Greek does, and not what Eretria can afford to do
 
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[X] Demos Drakonia
[X] ...Thurii & the Sikeliote League.
[X] Syrakousai.
 
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Diplomacy and cash dollars can carry us further then just beefing the military can.
Adhoc vote count started by Rat King on May 15, 2019 at 1:19 PM, finished with 164 posts and 48 votes.
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