Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

So, more discussion on advanced insights!

yrsillar said:

Advanced Insights, unlike regular ones do not arise from arts. Instead when undergoing a tribulation or trial, a chance may come to gain an advanced insight.

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So, there are a couple of things I found interesting in my internal musings about Advanced Insights. The first is that Advanced Insights may cause people to actively seek out these trials and tribulations, likely causing conflict with more powerful spirits or with each other. This drive to seek out trials and tribulations might assist in enforcing the Empire's apparent focus on martial attributes. The people most likely to survive encounters with powerful spirits or fellow competitors are those proficient in defending themselves and using violence to secure what they desire. Fighting and striving against conflict not only becomes necessary for survival on a death world but necessary to grow strong enough to flourish.

The next thought that I had was how willing would people be to risk life and limb in order to have a chance at increasing their power? In order to advance past Green 4, you need to have been willing to take a significant risk or had that risk thrust upon you. This means that many nobles who are content with life and station may not seek tribulations to advance, and simply just exist at Green 4 rather than take that risk. Green Realm is average for the Imperial Nobility, and Green 4 is right in the middle of green, so it stands to reason that a lot of the nobility will not advance to Green 5. I think that the Ministries will be chock full of such people, content to be in positions of power and do important, if tedious, work. The Ministry of Integrity might be the exception, given their more conflict-driven lives, but I can see the Ministry of Communication having a bunch of people not moving past Green 4 because they are comfortable where they are at.
Edit: It's green 4 that needs the advanced insight, not green 5. Which means that nobles that seek comfort probably won't move past green 3.

Also, are advanced insights required to move further into Cyan, Indigo, and Violet? I don't think so because Green is establishing your domain and the other realms are about your "Way" whatever that means. Advanced Insights are pretty domain focused, and I don't even want to know what would count as a tribulation for a violet to move into Prism. There is also the existence known as Cai Shenhua who in ten years moved from Indigo to White. If she had to seek a trial or tribulation, or two, for every realm that would be a lot of conflict in the Indigo and above range. Which given the rarity of such existences, seems unlikely.

Finally, my last thought for the moment. There doesn't seem to be a limit to the number of Advanced Insights one can have, it just requires a tribulation and trial, and even then it will only be a chance. Which means, if an advanced insight actually does strengthen our domain, one could theoretically seek out ever-increasing dangers to form a powerfully potent domain even at Green 2 or 3. This method... seems near suicidal, however. I can't imagine someone who goes out purposefully seeking trials and tribulations while a Green Appraisal would last all that long, unless they were particularly careful about the trials they take. Which, given the reckless attitude needed to do this, is unlikely. So while I think that it would be fun for Ling Qi to endure tribulations to get stronger, it is probably not the wisest course of action and we would give Sixiang (and all of our friends) heart attacks. Hopefully, Xiulan learned from her first tribulation. . . .

Edit: I lied. I have another thought. What tribulation will Ji Rong face, and what would his advanced insight be? It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly what his domain is supposed to be, which makes guessing at his possible advanced insights all but impossible. Either way, I'm sure that Ji Rong would relish the opportunity to be truly tested and pushed in combat.

so....this is very deep and all

but what would swordboi tribulation be like?

Swordspirit: You face a choice, this gold blade of jewels or this worn soldiers shortsword?

Swordboi: *cuts spirit*

I think people are reading a bit too much into how we have gained insights until now.

It would be very surprising if, for example, spending your time analyzing and writing Koans couldn't get you insights. The way you gain insights is almost certainly tailored to your way and your personality.

Consequently I think it is more likely that people like Ling Qi, who for whatever reason were forced into or heavily incentivised to take risks will gain insights in ways similar to ours. While those that don't have, say because they are rich and have better ways to spend their time than scrabbling for fortuitous encounters, will find their insight in similarly meaningful but likely less dangerous ways.

Thor's Twin said:

Edit: I lied. I have another thought. What tribulation will Ji Rong face, and what would his advanced insight be? It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly what his domain is supposed to be, which makes guessing at his possible advanced insights all but impossible. Either way, I'm sure that Ji Rong would relish the opportunity to be truly tested and pushed in combat.

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It'd be pretty hard for us to know that, given that most of our interactions with him have been before either of us have really had a chance to solidify our domains. Like, from an external perspective the only clues about Ling Qi's domain before our fight with swordboi were faint breezes, hair glitter and something like wind chimes IIRC. None of that really screams Home or directly matches up to what we've slotted as insights but are more just peripherally related elements from one or more of our commonly used arts.

Given how the sect seems to purposefully litter their grounds with potential trials and tribulation, I strongly suspect that doing a tribulation isn't that rare... but doing the many tribulations needed to constantly go up in rank is. After all, a Green should be able to live at least 300+ years, and them being in danger one time or another should be expected.

So, while you wouldn't see that many nobles locked forever in Green 3, them never going past Green 5 or Green 6 is much more plausible.

That, and inner sect disciples are the elites, and are expected to have the potential to get to Cyan. Most nobles aren't inner sect disciples.

qwolfs said:

I think people are reading a bit too much into how we have gained insights until now.

It would be very surprising if, for example, spending your time analyzing and writing Koans couldn't get you insights. The way you gain insights is almost certainly tailored to your way and your personality.

Consequently I think it is more likely that people like Ling Qi, who for whatever reason were forced into or heavily incentivised to take risks will gain insights in ways similar to ours. While those that don't have, say because they are rich and have better ways to spend their time than scrabbling for fortuitous encounters, will find their insight in similarly meaningful but likely less dangerous ways.

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I mean, gaining insights from Koans is a possibility, but it goes against a lot of what we've learned regarding how to advance in cultivation. We know from Meizhen that she believes conflict serves as the core for advancing one's self. And we know from the text regarding Advanced Insights that a "tribulation or trial" gives a chance to acquire an advanced insight.

That doesn't eliminate the possibility of other means to gain insights, but we don't have any information regarding those other methods. I would assume that the level of difficulty of the task determines whether it would be classified as a trial or tribulation and I would find it hard to believe that doing something which is easy would be enough to qualify for gaining any Advanced Insight.

hmmmm what are the possibility of high tier cultivators be alike in Path/insights etc?

surely there were previous wraithes, earth snakes, fire flowers, uber admins and lighting punchers in the past

I dont believe a tribulation or trial has to be life threatening. I think it has more to do with the person involved. For example someone not afraid of dying would not necessarily find a life threatening event to be much of a trial.

Thor's Twin said:

Snip.

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Not really, you just assume that Trials/Tribulations/Conflict must involve some measure of face punching.

Which even for Ling Qi has absolutely not been the case. Literally this insight was gained when we were examining a hypothetical situation in an illusion. When we gained our insight after writing a song there was no life or death struggle.

We gained insights because we were insightful. Not because we were in danger.

Edit: to be clear, this is a quest. I expect our own insights will always be inextricably linked with at least some measure of danger for narrative reasons. But that shouldn't be a mechanical necessity for every one else in the setting.

qwolfs said:

Thankfully that doesn't actually get explored because transhumanism isn't most peoples cup of tea so I get to leave my issues blissfully unexamined.

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Reminds me of a character in Adam Warren's "Empowered" named Mindf**k. Who basically is a scary high end telepath who literally is one of the nicest sweetest people in the entire comic... but admits that she literally Made herself this way.

Voluntarily rewriting her personality until she became a person she was satisfied with being.

qwolfs said:

Not really, you just assume that Trials/Tribulations/Conflict must involve some measure of face punching.

Which even for Ling Qi has absolutely not been the case. Literally this insight was gained when we were examining a hypothetical situation in an illusion. When we gained our insight after writing a song there was no life or death struggle.

We gained insights because we were insightful. Not because we were in danger.

Edit: to be clear, this is a quest. I expect our own insights will always be inextricably linked with at least some measure of danger for narrative reasons. But that shouldn't be a mechanical necessity for every one else in the setting.

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Look, you telling me what you think I'm assuming is not helping your argument.

Nothing in the post that I've written had anything to do with face punching or life and death struggles. Or, in fact, anything about danger. It seems like you are creating a strawman to argue with rather than the points that I actually made. Which are

1. Advanced Insights requires a trial or tribulation.
2. We have no information regarding other ways of gaining Advanced Insights.
3. Trials and Tribulations indicate that there needs to be a level of difficulty to the task.

Furthermore, if you want to talk about general insights, then we can talk about general insights. We gain the possibility of general insights every time we fully master an art that finishes in the Green Realm (at least). No conflict needed, no particular difficulty required. That's an insight.

Advanced Insights are different in kind. Being "insightful" isn't enough. The only way we know how to gain advanced insights is through a trial and tribulation and, presumably, being insightful during that trial and tribulation. If your argument is that trial and tribulations don't require life and death struggles, then fine. I can agree with that. But that doesn't actually define what a trial or tribulation is. But that doesn't even address my statement that trials and tribulations need to be difficult.

If there are other ways to gain insights that don't require tribulations and trials, then we don't know them. And saying that there could be other means is pure supposition that is unsupported by the information we have.

The only evidence that we have of Advanced Insights is the Advanced Insight that we just gained. From coming to terms and understanding the impossibility of the illusions that we were trapped in. In a life and death situation. I mean, you can argue that Advanced Insights don't come from life or death situations, but using the Advanced Insight that Ling Qi just gained undercuts the whole argument. And we have no information regarding what Advanced Insights others have gained or how they gained them to draw comparisons.

This talk about gaining an insight from our composition of music is nice and all... but completely irrelevant to the discussion of Advanced Insights. Because it wasn't an advanced insight, and never will be an advanced insight.

An Advanced Insight can probably come about from having to finish a formation for an important patron in a short amount of time, or from compiling paperwork for a city where if you mess up you'll be fired or demoted, or from dealing with a social situation that could leave you disgraced if not handled properly. Something which pushes you to your limits and creates a situation where you can realize something about yourself.

Edit: I suppose I should also address what conflict was about in my previous post. There are a ton of ways to generate conflict that doesn't derive from face punching. From internal conflict and motivations to external forces pushing you out of your comfort zone. If there are no conflicts, then there are no drives to improve or reasons to improve. Whether that conflict comes from who you are compared to who you want to be or a person coming to take your stuff.

Thor's Twin said:

Edit: I lied. I have another thought. What tribulation will Ji Rong face, and what would his advanced insight be? It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly what his domain is supposed to be, which makes guessing at his possible advanced insights all but impossible. Either way, I'm sure that Ji Rong would relish the opportunity to be truly tested and pushed in combat.

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Our most recent interaction with Ji Rong suggests that he's been confronted with his failures as a leader, even in the extremely modest scale of his mortal life.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's been thinking about the nature of "victory" and how winning fights might be a necessary precondition but insufficient to achieve victory on its own.

So there has been some confusion on the intended reading of the second dream sequence, and some have pointed out some outright cringey implications that I did not consider and am deeply displeased to have written. The scene has been extended a bit to make my intentions as a writer much more clear.

I am really starting to feel the value of having an editor.

Thor's Twin said:

An Advanced Insight can probably come about from having to finish a formation for an important patron in a short amount of time, or from compiling paperwork for a city where if you mess up you'll be fired or demoted, or from dealing with a social situation that could leave you disgraced if not handled properly. Something which pushes you to your limits and creates a situation where you can realize something about yourself.

Edit: I suppose I should also address what conflict was about in my previous post. There are a ton of ways to generate conflict that doesn't derive from face punching. From internal conflict and motivations to external forces pushing you out of your comfort zone. If there are no conflicts, then there are no drives to improve or reasons to improve. Whether that conflict comes from who you are compared to who you want to be or a person coming to take your stuff.

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Yeah. I think the other really important thing is that it has to be philosophically meaningful in the challenge it poses. For example, a hard fight against a giant earth spirit may not have any particular philosophical meaning or prompt any character development, despite how hard and dangerous it is. Getting struck by lightning might be a good way to get powerups, but it won't necessarily give you any particular insight.

Zeqing's trial here gave us this insight because of how much her ordeals here, and her throwing them in Ling Qi's face, reflect the challenges of Ling Qi's life and who she wants to be.

Thor's Twin said:

Look, you telling me what you think I'm assuming is not helping your argument.

Nothing in the post that I've written had anything to do with face punching or life and death struggles. Or, in fact, anything about danger. It seems like you are creating a strawman to argue with rather than the points that I actually made. Which are

1. Advanced Insights requires a trial or tribulation.
2. We have no information regarding other ways of gaining Advanced Insights.
3. Trials and Tribulations indicate that there needs to be a level of difficulty to the task.

Furthermore, if you want to talk about general insights, then we can talk about general insights. We gain the possibility of general insights every time we fully master an art that finishes in the Green Realm (at least). No conflict needed, no particular difficulty required. That's an insight.

Advanced Insights are different in kind. Being "insightful" isn't enough. The only way we know how to gain advanced insights is through a trial and tribulation and, presumably, being insightful during that trial and tribulation. If your argument is that trial and tribulations don't require life and death struggles, then fine. I can agree with that. But that doesn't actually define what a trial or tribulation is. But that doesn't even address my statement that trials and tribulations need to be difficult.

If there are other ways to gain insights that don't require tribulations and trials, then we don't know them. And saying that there could be other means is pure supposition that is unsupported by the information we have.

The only evidence that we have of Advanced Insights is the Advanced Insight that we just gained. From coming to terms and understanding the impossibility of the illusions that we were trapped in. In a life and death situation. I mean, you can argue that Advanced Insights don't come from life or death situations, but using the Advanced Insight that Ling Qi just gained undercuts the whole argument. And we have no information regarding what Advanced Insights others have gained or how they gained them to draw comparisons.

This talk about gaining an insight from our composition of music is nice and all... but completely irrelevant to the discussion of Advanced Insights. Because it wasn't an advanced insight, and never will be an advanced insight.

An Advanced Insight can probably come about from having to finish a formation for an important patron in a short amount of time, or from compiling paperwork for a city where if you mess up you'll be fired or demoted, or from dealing with a social situation that could leave you disgraced if not handled properly. Something which pushes you to your limits and creates a situation where you can realize something about yourself.

Edit: I suppose I should also address what conflict was about in my previous post. There are a ton of ways to generate conflict that doesn't derive from face punching. From internal conflict and motivations to external forces pushing you out of your comfort zone. If there are no conflicts, then there are no drives to improve or reasons to improve. Whether that conflict comes from who you are compared to who you want to be or a person coming to take your stuff.

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Except that our discussion is not in fact happening in a vacuum. My post was a response to posts you and others had made where you placed what I feel are undue emphasis on the danger, specifically life threatening danger, of tribulations. Which is why I felt it was important to moderate that and point out we dont actually have a lot of information to base that on.

Your post where you call me out for putting words in your mouth literally repeats the majority of my argument. And it directly contradicts the heavy emphasis you put on the danger of tribulations in the post just a page before.

Thor's Twin said:

So, more discussion on advanced insights!

So, there are a couple of things I found interesting in my internal musings about Advanced Insights. The first is that Advanced Insights may cause people to actively seek out these trials and tribulations, likely causing conflict with more powerful spirits or with each other. This drive to seek out trials and tribulations might assist in enforcing the Empire's apparent focus on martial attributes. The people most likely to survive encounters with powerful spirits or fellow competitors are those proficient in defending themselves and using violence to secure what they desire. Fighting and striving against conflict not only becomes necessary for survival on a death world but necessary to grow strong enough to flourish.

The next thought that I had was how willing would people be to risk life and limb in order to have a chance at increasing their power? In order to advance past Green 4, you need to have been willing to take a significant risk or had that risk thrust upon you. This means that many nobles who are content with life and station may not seek tribulations to advance, and simply just exist at Green 4 rather than take that risk. Green Realm is average for the Imperial Nobility, and Green 4 is right in the middle of green, so it stands to reason that a lot of the nobility will not advance to Green 5. I think that the Ministries will be chock full of such people, content to be in positions of power and do important, if tedious, work. The Ministry of Integrity might be the exception, given their more conflict-driven lives, but I can see the Ministry of Communication having a bunch of people not moving past Green 4 because they are comfortable where they are at.
Edit: It's green 4 that needs the advanced insight, not green 5. Which means that nobles that seek comfort probably won't move past green 3.

Also, are advanced insights required to move further into Cyan, Indigo, and Violet? I don't think so because Green is establishing your domain and the other realms are about your "Way" whatever that means. Advanced Insights are pretty domain focused, and I don't even want to know what would count as a tribulation for a violet to move into Prism. There is also the existence known as Cai Shenhua who in ten years moved from Indigo to White. If she had to seek a trial or tribulation, or two, for every realm that would be a lot of conflict in the Indigo and above range. Which given the rarity of such existences, seems unlikely.

Finally, my last thought for the moment. There doesn't seem to be a limit to the number of Advanced Insights one can have, it just requires a tribulation and trial, and even then it will only be a chance. Which means, if an advanced insight actually does strengthen our domain, one could theoretically seek out ever-increasing dangers to form a powerfully potent domain even at Green 2 or 3. This method... seems near suicidal, however. I can't imagine someone who goes out purposefully seeking trials and tribulations while a Green Appraisal would last all that long, unless they were particularly careful about the trials they take. Which, given the reckless attitude needed to do this, is unlikely. So while I think that it would be fun for Ling Qi to endure tribulations to get stronger, it is probably not the wisest course of action and we would give Sixiang (and all of our friends) heart attacks. Hopefully, Xiulan learned from her first tribulation. . . .

Edit: I lied. I have another thought. What tribulation will Ji Rong face, and what would his advanced insight be? It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly what his domain is supposed to be, which makes guessing at his possible advanced insights all but impossible. Either way, I'm sure that Ji Rong would relish the opportunity to be truly tested and pushed in combat.

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You weren't the only one doing it, and I wasnt calling you or any one out specificaly. Mainly because I didn't feel there was anything too call out, just that the general direction of discussion was moving in a way I felt was not warranted. Which you seem to agree with now?

Thor's Twin said:

Edit: I lied. I have another thought. What tribulation will Ji Rong face, and what would his advanced insight be? It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly what his domain is supposed to be, which makes guessing at his possible advanced insights all but impossible. Either way, I'm sure that Ji Rong would relish the opportunity to be truly tested and pushed in combat.

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Its really not complicated

It's basically PLUS ULTRA: Lightning version

yrsillar said:

So there has been some confusion on the intended reading of the second dream sequence, and some have pointed out some outright cringey implications that I did not consider and am deeply displeased to have written. The scene has been extended a bit to make my intentions as a writer much more clear.

I am really starting to feel the value of having an editor.

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Id volunteer, but you could say that my spare time has recently gone up in smoke

yrsillar said:

So there has been some confusion on the intended reading of the second dream sequence, and some have pointed out some outright cringey implications that I did not consider and am deeply displeased to have written. The scene has been extended a bit to make my intentions as a writer much more clear.

I am really starting to feel the value of having an editor.

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I like the new version much better.

Xicree said:

Reminds me of a character in Adam Warren's "Empowered" named Mindf**k. Who basically is a scary high end telepath who literally is one of the nicest sweetest people in the entire comic... but admits that she literally Made herself this way.

Voluntarily rewriting her personality until she became a person she was satisfied with being.

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Can't argue with reflexive equilibrium.

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