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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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jcw3 said:
No. That's not Superman. That's an abused child who was raised up thinking he had to be perfect.
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Yeah, and some of that was actually writing that non-Apokoliptians can appreciate. The incident where heard his foster mom planning to commit suicide, flew out to stop her, but was too late because soundwaves take time to travel and she'd already pulled the trigger by the time he heard her take the safety off? That bit where his hair can impale and shred human flesh if touched, because his super-durability means they're basically organic monoblades?

Those are legitimately interesting little ideas, if a bit depressing. It's still not worth reading Irredeemable.

jcw3 said:
It's not a deconstruction of Superman's ideals. It's praising Superman himself. It's saying that no one else besides Superman could deal with what he has to go through. It's showing how loopy the Plutonian was, because he tried to live up to an ideal that was impossible to live up to.
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Oh, you're quite right that it's not a deconstruction, in the same way that FATAL isn't a deconstruction of Dungeons & Dragons. As for praising him?

Get out. You might as well argue that the Bad-Ass comics were written to "praise" Captain America.

This comic is 90% about showing an unbearable Villain Sue strut around being a shitlord with nobody able to stop him, ever; any sympathy I might feel for the cast being stuck in such a place largely dissolves when it turns out that half of them are "just" douchebags. Their Hawkeye sold out multiple civilizations to their reality's equivalent of the Daleks "to spare Earth" (and considering he started doing this before the Plutonian decided to be a dickpenis to everybody else, that argument rings rather hollow, even if you're willing to accept that fucking over dozens of planets to save just one is okay).

The one decent super I mentioned? He's a strong expy of Hawkman - a winged warrior who's been around since ancient days. His wife decides to cheat on him because he's not a bodice-ripping sex machine, and instead places primacy on emotional intimacy (since, as a centuries-old immortal, sex lost its novelty long ago). Then, he ends up getting beat to shit and having his wings ripped off, as if the author is going "Wait, this guy's actually nice? Yeah, fuck that noise; not in my comic!"

jcw3 said:
Don't see what's wrong with him being overpowered.
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The problem is that the Plutonian is bullshit invincible and omnipotent, and if the villain is completely impossible to defy or defeat, then you're just reading about how the villain wins at everything forever - and when said villain is a mass-murdering rapist who often goes out of his way to traumatize and kill his former friends, that doesn't make for pleasant reading.

jcw3 said:
You think this is the most mean-spirited thing you've ever read. Ha. The Boys is worse than this. At least there are good people in Irredeemable. Uber is worse, at least in tone (no matter how much I love it).
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You did see the part where I stated that, as far as I can tell, The Boys is a setting you could declare Exterminatus on with minimal moral problems, right? Arguing that X is okay because something like that is worse is about as valid as invoking Godwin's Law.

Also, Uber's own author openly stated that it was purposefully written to be unpleasant and devoid of positive qualities. If you can enjoy reading that... then fine. Can't possibly comprehend your psychology there, but fine. Go ahead.

When you recommend something like it without appending the necessary warning labels, then we have a problem.
 
GardenerBriareus said:
Also, Uber's own author openly stated that it was purposefully written to be unpleasant and devoid of positive qualities. If you can enjoy reading that... then fine. Can't possibly comprehend your psychology there, but fine. Go ahead.

When you recommend something like it without appending the necessary warning labels, then we have a problem.
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Ah, I meant that I love Uber because it's a hopeless, mean-spirited war story. Not that I seriously enjoy reading it. The Katyusha vs Sieglinde fight was probably the only time I actually enjoyed it. It's not a fun, popcorn story, that's for sure.

I see your point, and acknowledge it. Thank you for this debate.
 
Rem Ipsum said:
Didn't he buff the abilities of Power Rings in the main timeline, though?

Not compared to the comics, of course, but YJ canon.
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Kind of, but not really. Either the rings could always do what he's demonstrated in setting, and the Green Lanterns are prevented from using them that way, or they can use them that way, and they're all collective idiots that need the SI to show them the way. Or he's modified the setting to include power ring abilities from the comics while lowering the power levels as seen in the comics, so he can have his cake and eat it, too.
Mr Zoat said:
I don't really want to go into how I'm doing Indigos into too great a detail, but while canonically most of them were brainwashed a) that was necessitated by the recruitment criteria and b) it didn't do that to Natromo or Ray Palmer.
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That may be, but you have a habit of taking the truly debilitating mental effects of certain rings and severely downplaying them. I'm not complaining, since it's a conceit I'm willing to accept for the story, but it is a thing that you do. Either that, or you're writing your SI to have the same special snowflake ability as Kyle "Any Ring You Can Wear, I Can Wear Better" Rayner. Which, again, is fine.
 
Dr. Bob Doom said:
Kind of, but not really. Either the rings could always do what he's demonstrated in setting, and the Green Lanterns are prevented from using them that way, or they can use them that way, and they're all collective idiots that need the SI to show them the way. Or he's modified the setting to include power ring abilities from the comics while lowering the power levels as seen in the comics, so he can have his cake and eat it, too.
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Maybe I didn't communicate it well, but that last one was pretty much exactly what I was suggesting in the bit you quoted from me.

Unless you were being sarcastic?
 
Dr. Bob Doom said:
Kind of, but not really. Either the rings could always do what he's demonstrated in setting, and the Green Lanterns are prevented from using them that way, or they can use them that way, and they're all collective idiots that need the SI to show them the way. Or he's modified the setting to include power ring abilities from the comics while lowering the power levels as seen in the comics, so he can have his cake and eat it, too.
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In summary:
The way the SI used the ring is quite counter-intuitive to most Green Lanterns, and Green Lantern Corps recruitment criteria means that Greenies tend to think in similar ways.
Green rings are much harder to use in complex or subtle ways anyway.
Green Lanterns have full time jobs, the SI does not.
Once you get past basic, Green Lantern Corps training is a bit rubbish.

As shown in the story, once Greenies are given time to practice and motive to learn, they are perfectly capable of doing what the SI does.
That may be, but you have a habit of taking the truly debilitating mental effects of certain rings and severely downplaying them. I'm not complaining, since it's a conceit I'm willing to accept for the story, but it is a thing that you do.
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I do that because having a character put a ring on and immediately go mental is boring. There should be a struggle, both with the ring and with their own thoughts and feelings. It's like how Vampire: the Masquerade has a complex system for moral decay and guilt for Humanity and then covers alternate Paths in a couple of pages. Becoming a monster -or at least becoming inhuman- is interesting. Starting as one, not so much.
Either that, or you're writing your SI to have the same special snowflake ability as Kyle "Any Ring You Can Wear, I Can Wear Better" Rayner. Which, again, is fine.
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Gods, no.
 
Mr Zoat said:
In summary:
The way the SI used the ring is quite counter-intuitive to most Green Lanterns, and Green Lantern Corps recruitment criteria means that Greenies tend to think in similar ways.
Green rings are much harder to use in complex or subtle ways anyway.
Green Lanterns have full time jobs, the SI does not.
Once you get past basic, Green Lantern Corps training is a bit rubbish.

As shown in the story, once Greenies are given time to practice and motive to learn, they are perfectly capable of doing what the SI does.
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GL's aren't an uplift force, they're a peacekeeping force. Riot Police doesn't worry about info gathering. They can do it, with the proper training, it's just not what they're there for. I understand that.
Mr Zoat said:
I do that because having a character put a ring on and immediately go mental is boring. There should be a struggle, both with the ring and with their own thoughts and feelings. It's like how Vampire: the Masquerade has a complex system for moral decay and guilt for Humanity and then covers alternate Paths in a couple of pages. Becoming a monster -or at least becoming inhuman- is interesting. Starting as one, not so much.
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Right. That's why I said that it's a conceit I'm willing to accept for the story. There wouldn't be much to read if WTR had started and ended with OL putting on an Orange Power Ring and going all "mine mine mine MINE".

It's an acceptable break from canon for the sake of storytelling.
Mr Zoat said:


Gods, no.
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You sure? Those pauldrons are rather fetching...
 
mrttao said:
that one is the stupidest part. Oh sorry, you can't use the ring to make any money, this means you need to spend 90% of your time earning food instead of actually, you know, saving lives and doing your goddamn job as a green lantern
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They have full time jobs AS GREEN LANTERNS and receive pay for this. Paul has to fund himself.
 
mrttao said:
that one is the stupidest part. Oh sorry, you can't use the ring to make any money, this means you need to spend 90% of your time earning food instead of actually, you know, saving lives and doing your goddamn job as a green lantern
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Ah, no. Their full time job is being a Green Lantern. As stated in story, none of the Earth based ones have other jobs. Jordan and Stewart both tried, neither managed. Space Sectors are big and complicated things and Earth is one of the easier places to manage.
King of Frost said:
Ah, this explains quite a lot. And raises so many questions.

Does Indigo-Paul know about the general nature of these superheroes or did he not know much about The Boys?
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This comes up later. Feel free to ask again at the end of the episode.
 
Bailey Matutine said:
They have full time jobs AS GREEN LANTERNS and receive pay for this. Paul has to fund himself.
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Mr Zoat said:
Ah, no. Their full time job is being a Green Lantern. As stated in story, none of the Earth based ones have other jobs. Jordan and Stewart both tried, neither managed. Space Sectors are big and complicated things and Earth is one of the easier places to manage.
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huh, I was sure they were like superman, with a secret identity and a mundane job.
My bad.
 
mrttao said:
huh, I was sure they were like superman, with a secret identity and a mundane job.
My bad.
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One of the things I really like about Green Lantern Animated is that when Jordan disappears for months with no warning, he gets fired.

No specific reference was made to Lantern employment in Young Justice but I can't think of any way they could handle both sets of responsibility.
 
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