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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Lazy Coyote said:
Okay, done my research, looked at the wiki, and for the life of me I can't think of anything that might be effecting Paul so badly.

Except... he's never been this bad, not even close.

In fact, now that I think about it he's been slowly changing for... dozens of chapters, maybe even earlier.

This hasn't been quick, no, this has been excruciatingly slow, and it's just speeding up.

... guys... I don't think that Paul is fully human anymore... at least not mentally...

Either that or he thinks he's become some godlike force of nature after having the ring so long... which is just stupid, but he's not been powerless since... I can't even remember, maybe the Androids when he lost his ring? And that was a long, long time ago.
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What if teleporting through the Plane of Avarice accelerates the normal mental contamination that comes from wearing a Ring?

I mean... I seem to remember something similar happening with the Guardians when they spent too much time in the Will equivalent of Will World.
 
RichardWhereat said:
I am honestly not seeing what Paul's doing wrong.
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As far as I can tell, he's just steamrolling past normal human societal norms as if they don't exist. This has got everyone's panties in a twist because the norms in question involve religion. Which... isn't really that bad? Maybe a bit arrogant...

Vaermina said:
That would take time, and during that time Humans would be dying.
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If the Silver City decided to punish all of humanity for something Paul did, humans would be dying en masse anyway, right up until they grasped that Heaven was the enemy. At that point, the Silver City would be essentially doomed, with the likes of Paul, Constantine, and Lex Luthor teaming up to prevent genocide. Yes, people would die, but if the Silver City was so unreasonable as to declare war on Earth because one guy stole from them, not only would the Silver City deserve to die, but there would also have been indications that they were this unreasonable.

Vaermina said:
This time he didn't even try that and then decided to be spiteful to just because he didn't want to say he was sorry.
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Vaermina, please tell me you're not so dense as to have not read and comprehended the many, many times that people have explained that repentance is not just saying you're sorry.
 
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RichardWhereat said:
I am honestly not seeing what Paul's doing wrong.
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he's rather massively failing at empathy. He views the silver city as a powerful but distant polity with an overinflated view of itself and a willingness to do horrible things. Most people he works with see it as a literal object of worship. He's not accounting for others see the silver city and God, and it's causing pretty significant friction. Because he's failing at understanding or predicting how others will react to this because he's lost sight of how very differently they view God.
 
Vaermina said:
This time he didn't even try that and then decided to be spiteful to just because he didn't want to say he was sorry.
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I'm trying to stay out of this for the most part, but it was established that just saying sorry wouldn't cut it.

Repentance would require actually feeling sorry for what he did. As this entire affair should have showed, he doesn't give a fuck. You cannot repent what you do not feel sorry for.
 
I dont know, of all the justifications for breaking into a guarded area and nicking their crap.

Actually "I dont respect them" is a perfectly valid comic book reasons. O.k.

I definitely feel like paul is sliding down the slippery villain slope. I just cant put it into words.

Hm.

Maybe its just the ol' narrative causality rearing its ugly head.

HmHmmmMMMhmMmmmmMm.
 
Massgamer said:
Didn't Paul basically say all religious and afterlives are real the last time he talked about this?

He said the Silver City and Angels were a thing before on tv after the demon attack.
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Yeah, see, when it comes to religion there's saying they're all basically true, which leads to a bunch of people ignoring the entire interview because it doesn't conform to their beliefs.

And then there's this situation. In which an actual, Biblical angel from Heaven above came down and publicly accused OL of theft from the Garden of Eden itself and he basically told it to, in very respectful terms, to sod off and it eventually did. The intolerant members of the non-Abrahamic religions get pissed because they're going to take that as a slap in the balls to their faith, and the intolerant members of the Abrahamic religions get pissed because OL stole something from their god and refused to repent for it and he basically got away with it.

People are much more used to one than the other. I can understand OL's disregard of the situation because he finds it stupid, but it is still a huge situation that can and does seem to be a huge powder keg ready to restart the fucking crusades.
 
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Crimson Doom said:
Vaermina, please tell me you're not so dense as to have not read and comprehended the many, many times that people have explained that repentance is not just saying you're sorry.
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Not arguing about the repenting thing, but did he ever even give the slightest attempt at apologizing? Everyone is saying it wouldn't have worked but as far as I can tell he didn't try anything besides a flat "not sorry".
 
bigking321 said:
Not arguing about the repenting thing, but did he ever even give the slightest attempt at apologizing? Everyone is saying it wouldn't have worked but as far as I can tell he didn't try anything besides a flat "not sorry".
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Hey, he offered to cut his hand off. He was perfectly willing to follow what is perceived to be the proper Biblical punishment for theft.
 
bigking321 said:
Not arguing about the repenting thing, but did he ever even give the slightest attempt at apologizing? Everyone is saying it wouldn't have worked but as far as I can tell he didn't try anything besides a flat "not sorry".
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Zauriel never asked for an apology, he asked for repentance. Since both Paul and Zauriel knew what was meant, attempts at just saying "sorry" would have been both pointless and insulting.
 
King of Frost said:
And then there's this situation. In which an actual, Biblical angel from Heaven above came down and publicly accused OL of theft from the Garden of Eden itself. The intolerant members of the non-Abrahamic religions get pissed because they're going to take that as a slap in the balls to their faith, and the intolerant members of the Abrahamic religions get pissed because OL stole something from their god and refused to repent for it and he basically got away with it.
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I highly doubt anyone heard them talking from that high up.

@Mr Zoat can you confirm or deny this? I would think no one heard their conversation since they were so high up in the air and he only told the League the details.
 
HMhMhMHMhMHmmMmmhhMHMhMHMHmhMHMHm.

Thats what it was, I think.

Paul's sense of right and wrong have become a little... divorced from average human values.

Not irrationally, and not largely.

Its like hes occupying some kind of Moral Uncanny Valley.
 
Typos:

Mr Zoat said:
All told, I achieved my objectives and the only real difficult came from a surprisingly reasonable angel."
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"difficulty"

Mr Zoat said:
I'm not really all that impressed about them getting offended on someone else's behalf, or in thinking that they're understand of what Jehovah wants is better than the angels."
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"their understanding"

Mr Zoat said:
Diana takes a claming breath. "Paul, when was the last time you took your rings off?".
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"calming"
 
Yeah, Paul's got the whole "Gods are just ascended beings" concept stuck in his head and isn't really thinking about how others still perceive them and how normal religious morals differ due to it. He's so invested in his meta-knowledge and constantly being reinforced with in-universe confirmation bias, that he's not really paying attention to the world shattering ramifications of his actions.

He's really in a very small minority on DC Earth if not entirely unique in how he approaches deities and religion-based beings. The only reason he follows Eris is because of how her ideals align with his and from the benefits he gains out of doing so.

His patron god is more of a business partner than a religious icon to him, and from his reasoning, that makes sense.

This is...well, very alien to a lot of religious people since they don't approach it that way.

Earth-16 here is still a lot like ours due to the Status Quo being rather immutable and cultural consequences not really having full weight like they would in reality. A comic book standard really.

So, while their Middle East is a bit less volatile than ours, you still have zealots who do horrible things for religious reasons...who before this had no direct proof.

Now they do.

Demons can be handwaved away as "Invaders from dimension-X!" or "Hostile aliens appearing from nightmarish portals!" Even his first media show where he discussed it with the priest could be reasonably ignored since so many religious people aren't going to give a man who says "All religions are basically true" the time of day.

An actual Angel accusing a world-famous cake enthusiast super hero of stealing from the Garden of Eden in Bible-verse speech, and OL saying "Yeah, I did." is the bullet that will shatter millions if not billions of peoples' world views.

Simply put, when it comes to religion, Paul has no tact.

Things are going to be pretty chaotic around the world.

...Well, even if the Justice League is miffed, at least Eris is happy with Paul.
 
King of Frost said:
That is actually a very good point.

If there's this much rioting and bullshit happening just from an angel appearing, then I completely agree with OL about how stupid everyone is acting.
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This basically applies to religion as much as alien.

Anything that disrupts people's world view will lead to masses of ignorance acting out in an poor attempt to deal with it.
 
King of Frost said:
And then there's this situation. In which an actual, Biblical angel from Heaven above came down and publicly accused OL of theft from the Garden of Eden itself and he basically told it to, in very respectful terms, to sod off and it eventually did. The intolerant members of the non-Abrahamic religions get pissed because they're going to take that as a slap in the balls to their faith, and the intolerant members of the Abrahamic religions get pissed because OL stole something from their god and refused to repent for it and he basically got away with it
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Then to make things more complicated, by the end of it the angel was viewing the entire things as a Big-Fucking-Deal in a positive way
 
Crimson Doom said:
As far as I can tell, he's just steamrolling past normal human societal norms as if they don't exist. This has got everyone's panties in a twist because the norms in question involve religion. Which... isn't really that bad? Maybe a bit arrogant...



If the Silver City decided to punish all of humanity for something Paul did, humans would be dying en masse anyway, right up until they grasped that Heaven was the enemy. At that point, the Silver City would be essentially doomed, with the likes of Paul, Constantine, and Lex Luthor teaming up to prevent genocide. Yes, people would die, but if the Silver City was so unreasonable as to declare war on Earth because one guy stole from them, not only would they deserve to die, but there would also have been indications that they were this unreasonable.



Vaermina, please tell me you're not so dense as to have not read and comprehended the many, many times that people have explained that repentance is not just saying you're sorry.
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The silver city has literal near omnipotent beings paul would get utterly crushed by several different beings from heaven.
 
I honestly give zero fucks about the long term consequences of OLs actions here.

Because he does not either, and he is incredibly unlikely to be affected by them in any meaningful way.

Like he said.

Mr Zoat said:
"Celebrate, because it means that you've actually taken a decision on the future role of the Justice League. Have you actually voted for the 'recruit everyone' model?" I stare at him for a moment. "Be confused, because the Security Council doesn't issue arrest warrants? Sigh, cut off a hand and post it to the Chief Justice of Iran? Is that.. likely to happen? Do I need to start sleeping on the moon or outside the Sol system?"
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Vaermina said:
What if teleporting through the Plane of Avarice accelerates the normal mental contamination that comes from wearing a Ring?

I mean... I seem to remember something similar happening with the Guardians when they spent too much time in the Will equivalent of Will World.
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God we are all stupid. In retrospect it connects so many dots it's not even funny.

I was just assuming we were on a lead up to the "Bigger fish" to curb stomp Paul and remind him that he is not invunarable to consiquences.

Although, Just haveing the host (or whatever his DC name is) hit pause and have a chat with paul might be fun. After all he was proud of lucifer breaking from his plan... Paul can't reasanobly be a part of said plan.

...he might just dump lucifer down and say "Fine, you want out of my plan? Work with this kid. He was not a part of it and seems to be a bit like you. You'll get along great!" Then buggers off leaving paul, lucifer, Grant, and the crowd stareing in shock.

If that does not happen, I need to write a oMake
 
RichardWhereat said:
John has better than even odds of winning that.

Pretty much, yes. But the Muslims especially. I can't see more than the Orthodox jews getting too upset.


Just wait until Earth hears about the Spider thing.
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Even the more reasonable types of Orthodox Jews would find this fascinating rather than insulting. Many of them have come to the conclusion that God isn't benevolent anyway, so this would just be another piece of evidence that God is bizarre, unknowable, but ultimately predictable and with set laws they need to figure out.
 
The presence buggered off after the infinite crisis.

I... think a 16 year old girl is is Capital G God now.

I dont know, never read it.

Edit: Having done some wiki walking

WOW am I wrong. Holy shit.
 
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