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Pp

Paul.

Paul pls.

I'd say "for the love of God" but...

I put this in multi quote but I do not remember why, maybe when I can read it on my computer. So I am leaving it here.

EDIT: That was a reverse reference to Dumah at Morpheus's wake. He wept a single tear that communicated that everyone has a purpose, a place in God's plan.

Honestly, you're all missing the much more important development: No more Buddy Cop fic!

He gave him the ability to take time off. Unless he falls he might be back.

I sincerely doubt Paul would be allowed into the City or any other relevant holy setting.

Considering the Angels kicked the Lilim out after they built it for them? Yeah.
 
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Simpler solution:
Repent that it was necessary (or that Paul felt it was) to steal the fruit.
It might have been enough to count.
 
TO repent the action in an abrahamic religion means to TRULY repent the actions AND the reasoning behind it which is to say the ENTIRE project is wrong

You misunderstand. Paul wasn't thinking about potentially repenting for stealing the fruit.

He was thinking about potentially repenting for what he was about to do to Zaurial.
 
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So, the question is
What happens to Paul the Minmaxer now that he has shown the ability to make angels saunter vaguely downwards?
I am getting quite paranoid over this.
 
He wanted to go back to the Silver City to talk to God, but wasn't allowed to leave Paul's side.
There was a third option.

He could go back to the Silver City, so long as he took Paul with him. He might not be able to gain entrance for Paul, but he could probably stand outside and yell until someone came to meet him, then use them to pass on a message to God.

Alternatively, surely some kind of prayer would allow him to communicate with God remotely?
Failing even that, literally just tie a message to a brick and hurl it over the pearly gates.
 
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So apples of Eden are a very interesting thing in this continuity. They are a "get out of your nature free" card, and resets you to some more neutral nature. Don't like being an angel, or a demon? Eat this apple! It was a considerate thing for heaven to build into the universe.

...which implies three interesting things:
  1. Humans may have eaten the fruit intentionally, because they didn't like whatever humans were before that, and this might not have been considered wrong by the highest tiers of heaven, even if the lower tiers don't understand it.
  2. What would happen if you fed this to one of the citadel clones? Or one of those horrible dissecting people also from the Vega system?
    1. Is there any cap at all on these fruit? Does it have to be willing? Probably. But if not, what would happen if you fed it to the first of the fallen? what would happen if you fed one to Darksied?
    2. What would happen if you fed one to Paul?
  3. Maybe its powers are "turns you human, basically," which is why humans aren't supposed to eat them. Because they do nothing to humans, and they never seem to regrow, so now a species that could have escaped their nature is stuck.
 
I'm just left wondering if there wasn't a "well can you call them up without leaving?" option. Like maybe ... grabbing a Christian and asking them to pray about it
 
Thing is, I think Zauriel wanted to quit, so he didn't try hard to find reasons to not quit.

I mean think about it, he wanted to retire and not only did they not let him (after his presumably millions of years of loyal service), but they stuck him guarding the Garden of Eden, a place nobody goes to since Adam and Eve. I mean, Paul happens to be the impossible combination of being so crazy as to want to try to go in and so knowledgeable as to actually know where the place is, but if not for him then Zauriel only had possibly centuries of drudgery to look forward to, walking up and down the damn Garden. Probably the second worst assignment in Heaven, right behind Overseer of Hell, and at least Hell has entertainment galore.

Between that and his realizing his chain of command is shit and his superiors haven't even cracked the damn radio... Well I'd have quit if I was him.
 
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Between that and his realizing his chain of command is shit and his superiors haven't even cracked the damn radio... Well I'd have quit if I was him.
Which is kinda weird because at least in the comics the Silver City is supposed to have magitechnology so good it's even better then modern technology or even what the Justice League has. I mean I don't think they are quite New Genesis level but they are certainly supposed to be better then most of what the other pantheons on earth have available.
 
I get efficiency, but he appears to be invested quite heavily into Earth.

He invested in Earth that heavily because he was stuck there for a year. He's not stuck there anymore, so his goals don't revolve around Earth anymore, save for maintaining the social connections that he didn't burn when he killed Nabu.

Take his attempt at the Bleed Reactor. Instead of people going 'oh, this is a great new tech that is clean for energy' they would go 'this is clearly evil and probably makes evil radiation that needs a committee to look into it and years of testing'. Instead of 'oh he moved the moon' it would be 'he is declared an enemy by the majority of the UN and no government wants to protect him in fear of the public backlash.'

I think you missed the point of this entire story about how Paul wants to work with people.

Who says it has to be Paul's name on it? Ted Kord and Sephtian can easily "fence" any technologies that Paul feels the need to introduce. But more importantly, he doesn't need to introduce them anymore. The whole reason he introduced them in the first place was to kick humanity off its backside and have them start doing some innovation themselves. They've done that, so Paul's job is largely done.

Then if the Reach came and the GL were asked to stop Paul from interfering by the UN?

Paul would kill the Reach and expose their plans anyway, and I honestly doubt that the Green Lanterns would stop him. I fail to see how PR affects that in any way, shape, or form.

I, for one, am very pleased to have found a Super hero story where the hero can actually WIN, make actual progress, and not just set things back to a status quo or only foil one teeny tiny part of the villains plan that doesn't matter because even though they lost, they won anyway. UNTIL!!!! THIS IS OUR LAST CHANCE! IF WE DON'T WIN NOW, THE WORLD IS DOOOOOOOMMMMMEEEEDDD! Shonen hero powers activate! "Arrrgh! I"m so god damn DETERMINED RIGHT NOW!!"

...let me guess, you're not a Dragonball Z fan. :V

I don't get why Zuriel folded like a wet noodle. I would have thought him to be made of sterner stuff. Instead his moral compass/will is weaker than anything so far. He went from reasonable stoic to weak willed traitor to his beliefs.

Do people genuinely lack reading comprehension? Zauriel didn't abandon his moral beliefs, he abandoned one part of them. His moral belief in the sanctity of the heavenly bureaucracy took second fiddle to his moral belief that the method Paul just pioneered needs to be immediately reported so that research can begin on how to bring those lost souls back into the fold. The only thing Paul did was expose that those two beliefs could conflict, and refused to repent of a thing he genuinely doesn't regret and would do again in a heartbeat.

Those smaller countries have neither the resources or tech to implement Paul's goals.

That's why Maxx said "turn it into DC Wakanda". Turn it into a country that has those resources, and the fact that they have clean energy and a nation-spanning forcefield (just to name a couple of options off the top of my head) will get its own results quickly, since everyone else will want that tech but can only get it by playing ball with that country.

Islam and Christianity have never agreed on something as whole religions. Now imagine what would happen if they did?

I still don't see why feeding the Fruit of Good and Evil to an angel would be such a unifying topic among the Abrahamic/Islamic religions. "Oh no, an angel has the capacity to choose now! /sarcasm ...wait, you're serious?" Stealing it might be more controversial, but there are a number of Christians who just outright won't care. Heck, the Pope has proven to be pretty chill about magic stuff in general, so unless you can give some indication that he'd care, I really think you're making a chicken out of a feather.

I was under the impression that he was willing to do it even if it did end in him being punnished.

Who, Zauriel? Yeah, that seems pretty clear from the text, but it's still gotta hurt like all get-out, not knowing whether what you've done has just expelled you from the system you've spent literal millennia serving in and trusting in.

It's not the first time either he did the same during Nabu's aftermath with the Justice league twisting their morals and having them act OoC.

Criticize the story all you want, but the Justice League's complicity in the Nabu fiasco is very clearly canon.

Can you imagine the outrage if, in this story, the Nabu confrontation ended with just a conversation?

Speak for yourself, I'd have only been pissed because it would have been a complete 180 on how Nabu was behaving, not because I was cheated out of a fight.

Given that Thanos has been defeated by SQUIRRELS canonically, I don't think there would be too much.

I mean, to be fair, Squirrel Girl's real superpower is just the ability to beat anyone as long as nobody sees how it's done, so I wouldn't count that against Thanos seeing as he was up against a canonical Mary Sue played for laughs.

Repent that it was necessary (or that Paul felt it was) to steal the fruit.

Thaaaat's not how repenting works. The whole point of repentance is that there's something wrong with you that needs to change. It has nothing to do with circumstance.

...man, this is a long post. Who wants to bet that Zauriel is gonna be the new Nabu/Citadelians?
 
Why can't paul just go WITH zauriel to somewhere birdface can report on this matter? Surely reporting to someone else who CAN leave paul's side will get the message upstairs in proper fashion.

Is Paul just holding the idiotball, or is he going out of his way to manipulate zauriel into eating the fruit?
Blame Hellblazer.
Honestly there's too much of that in this supposedly Young Justice fic.
 
Criticize the story all you want, but the Justice League's complicity in the Nabu fiasco is very clearly canon.
I know and that's my problem. It's canon because of a plot hole and everyone knows that. IMO it gives Zoat no excuses not to fix it. He chose to take what was very clearly a mistake on the writers part and play it straight. Turning the entire league including Zataras canon close friends into heartless evil caricatures of themselves, or give some of them a galaxy sized idiot ball because Paul needs too be the ultimate champion. It did and still does break my SoD. If the leauge was brainwashed by Starros or lost their memories of him because whatever I might've bought it but it's played straight. Pure character assassination. And then he has the audacity to bash them for it.

In fact it's an even worse plot hole because it's actually played straight. The fact that not a single adult who came into contact with Zatara during those months never noticed anything is ridiculous.

TLDR: The whole Nabu arc shouldn't have existed in the first place fanfiction is made for stuff like this, stuff that doesn't make sense gets changed. That entire arc was based on a plot hole, an honest mistake, that should've been taken out of the story and never even alluded too, not played straight.
 
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Who says it has to be Paul's name on it? Ted Kord and Sephtian can easily "fence" any technologies that Paul feels the need to introduce. But more importantly, he doesn't need to introduce them anymore. The whole reason he introduced them in the first place was to kick humanity off its backside and have them start doing some innovation themselves. They've done that, so Paul's job is largely done.
He doesn't even need to use a known person if he really wanted to. Hell; he doesn't even need to use a knowing person if he wants to; i'm sure that he could implant some "schizo tech" blueprints into the head of someone who would probably do what he wants with the knowledge of how to make something like that.
 
At that point it wouldn't be Young Justice, though. All of those things you listed were very clearly true in canon; take that away, and you have knock-on effects that will eventually make the setting not Young Justice at all.
what? It's fan fiction dude. it's not like the premiss evaporates because Zatara isn't there. The team is still on going the characters still exist.

You can't warp an entire fic and have everyone act OoC for no reason only because you want to do a specific plot line and then act like it's good writing. It's not.

edit: also in canon the writers forgot about Zatara. A mistake is very different from a knowing and deliberate action
 
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it's not like the premiss evaporates because Zatara isn't there.

The premise of Young Justice, maybe not, I'll concede that. But the premise of With This Ring does, because the whole point of this fic is to look at the absurdity that underlies what we see in canon and explore it. Regardless of whether the writers meant to leave Zatara stuck in hell or just forgot that he was a dangling plot thread doesn't matter; we still see it in canon and therefore, it would have denied the premise of this fic to not address it. And the only reason for mind control to be an issue would be if Nabu did it, since nobody else has any reason to, and if Nabu had mind control capabilities that could catch literally every member of the Justice League we would likely have seen it in canon; such as, say, used against Wotan. There really aren't any options left except that the League badly fell down on the job.
 
How?
The whole issue here for Zauriel was that he could not leave Paul - without disobeying orders - and inform his superiors of the "feat of great magic" until Paul repented. That means he had no way of contacting his superiors.
If Zauriel couldn't contact the City, it would be the same for the mortal Paul.
1) Summoning magic. It clearly exists - remember the... Salvation crusade I think they were called? Bad guys from hellblazer, tried to summon an angel, messed it up so the angel killed them.
2) Contacting RCC.
3) Going to the garden Of Eden and yelling.
 
I can't empathize with Paul at all anymore. I used to, but somewhere along the way something changed.
I think he's one of the more understandable inhuman characters I've seen. However, he is inhuman, so humans not being able to empathize makes sense.

And besides, having full free will is a GOOD thing.
Citation needed.

He's also mortally perfect and can never be ethically wrong,
Thaaaaaats not what I've seen in this story. Of course he thinks he's correct inside his own head, which is our observational point. The narrator is unreliable.

Is Paul just holding the idiotball, or is he going out of his way to manipulate zauriel into eating the fruit?
Why not both? If distracting himself from the Blaze-task is undesired, he's also incapable of doing so. Also, as noted, actually reporting to someone else is non-trivial. There are not many angels on Earth at a given time, and all those who are, have their own task, which they cannot leave for the same reason Zauriel can't leave Paul, and Paul is not allowed in Silver city.

Repent that it was necessary (or that Paul felt it was) to steal the fruit.
It might have been enough to count.
Nah. Repent and regret are different.

I'm just left wondering if there wasn't a "well can you call them up without leaving?" option. Like maybe ... grabbing a Christian and asking them to pray about it
I don't think Angels hear prayers, and the Presence already knows what has transpired.
 
Criticize the story all you want, but the Justice League's complicity in the Nabu fiasco is very clearly canon.
I know and that's my problem. It's canon because of a plot hole and everyone knows that. IMO it gives Zoat no excuses not to fix it. He chose to take what was very clearly a mistake on the writers part and play it straight. Turning the entire league including Zataras canon close friends into heartless evil caricatures of themselves, or give some of them a galaxy sized idiot ball because Paul needs too be the ultimate champion. It did and still does break my SoD. If the leauge was brainwashed by Starros or lost their memories of him because whatever I might've bought it but it's played straight. Pure character assassination. And then he has the audacity to bash them for it.

In fact it's an even worse plot hole because it's actually played straight. The fact that not a single adult who came into contact with Zatara during those months never noticed anything is ridiculous.

TLDR: The whole Nabu arc shouldn't have existed in the first place fanfiction is made for stuff like this, stuff that doesn't make sense. That entire arc was based on a plot hole, an honest mistake, that should've been taken out of the story and never even alluded too, not played straight.
At that point it wouldn't be Young Justice, though. All of those things you listed were very clearly true in canon; take that away, and you have knock-on effects that will eventually make the setting not Young Justice at all.
what? It's fan fiction dude. it's not like the premiss evaporates because Zatara isn't there. The team is still on going the characters still exist.

You can't warp an entire fic and have everyone act OoC for no reason only because you want to do a specific plot line and then act like it's good writing. It's not.

edit: also in canon the writers forgot about Zatara. A mistake is very different from a knowing and deliberate action
Eh, to be fair, Zatanna is canonically a part of the Justice League in Season 2 and shows no issue working with Fate nor any angst about it.

We only saw Fate having a total hold over Giovanni Zatara for (Nov 6 to Dec 31 =) 2 months, and then there's 5 years for us to have a time-skip in which things can occur. I've always been pissed that the production team just dropped that storyline too, but there's enough room to imagine something pretty reasonable.

My preferred assumption has always been that Fate kept Zatara for 1 year and 1 day (for magical reasons) and then he just showed up in front of Zatanna, thanked her for her understanding patience in this trying time as Fate tied up all the loose ends, and without further ado took off the Helmet.

Hugs, tears, they spent time together, and Zatara renegotiated for a more reasonable time-share because Fate had done a lot of good while he was wearing the Helmet.

...

Or you could go grim-dark and argue that (since I think WoG got hedgy when people asked if it was still Zatara under the Helmet, but we also didn't see Zatara when all the other heroes assembled) Zatara is dead and it's someone else under the Helmet.

The most extreme version of that is the head-canon that Fate got Zatara KIA'd, but that begs the question of a) why Fate is still on the League when they would have a hard time forgiving that, b) how Fate got a new host, and c) why there isn't a memorial to Zatara up there.

A more reasonable version (given what we canonically know) would be something like, "after a year or two of using Zatara as his thrall, Fate realized Zatara was having health problems, and as it was no one would be willing to become a new host after how he'd treated his current one, so Fate realized he had to shape up and mend his ways."

Apologies and renegotiations occur, Fate lets Zatara go free for some of the time to reunite with Zatanna, Zatara and Fate find potential replacements with whom Fate forms a more reasonable contract, and Zatara is either retired, bedridden, or passed away from x when Season 2 rolls around.

...

Or if you want to complain about whether or not the League did anything, since there's so much that could have happened off-screen, maybe Wonder Woman (who fought beside Dr Fate in WWII so they have an existing rapport) got fed up, got in his face, and challenged, "Fate, what you are doing is wrong, holding a man in eternal bondage after you held his daughter hostage. I defy you to put on my Lasso (if the Lasso of Truth is YJ cannon, IDK,) and tell me this behavior is right and correct."

Fate tries to put on the Lasso, has to face the truth, suffers Blue Screen Of Death, & mends his ways, followed by an option from the above.

My point being that there's plenty of room for almost any assumption we (as readers/viewers) want to make.

...

Personally I dislike and disagree with how Zoat portrayed it in WTR - which is why I'm handling it differently in Life Ore Death - but even with my head-canons about the characters' natures and possible reasonable results off-screen I think everything that happened was in-character.

Why? Because OL's behavior escalated the situation between them.

In YJ canon, the undertones in the conversation between Nabu, Mr. Nelson, and Wally (around 2:50) have all sorts of significant suggestions. We don't know why Mr. Nelson put the Helmet on the shelf, but Nabu does not "appreciate being permanently hidden away, useless, isolated for decades at a time". He just spent 45+ years on a shelf, in what is basically glorified solitary confinement, denied the ability to fulfill his purpose.

Mr Nelson says, of Nabu's ability to monopolize a body, that he "can, but shouldn't," do it. There's a lot of potential to read in there.

Then Mr. Nelson says Wally will see that doesn't happen again [by finding another host], and Wally adds, "Yeah, I swear." He swears a promise to an inherently magical being, and then he... uh... we don't see Wally searching for a host on-screen, and the Helmet just goes back on a shelf, albeit a more well-lit and visited one.

In canon, you can even see a Rule of Three where Fate waited through 3 prospective hosts before refusing to relinquish the third one (Zatanna) after he was left on the shelf for 10 weeks again. And what had just happened when Zatanna put him on?

Chaos was "allowed to reign," which Fate was firmly against (3:12), because Klarion split the world in two and cataclysmically killed hundreds if not thousands (WTR total is >800,000 I think) of innocent children.

In WTR the situation is arguably worse. Unless I get a Word of Zoat, we have no reason to assume Wally's internal discussion was any different from cannon, but what happened immediately after?
His eyes go from Mister Nelson's body to the floor. "He almost.. almost didn't let me go."

"Who didn't?"

"Nabu."

Oh.

He holds the Helmet up and looks at it for a moment.

I don't remember any version of Nabu who actually stole unwilling hosts.

"He wants someone to wear him badly enough that he'll just steal bodies? We'd never accept that."

"I don't think he cares."

... ... ...

"Nabu didn't treat Mister Nelson like that back in the forties. What changed?"

"He got stuck on a shelf for fifty years."

Makes sense.

"And now we have to leave him there, because he won't accept going back there. I wonder if Lords of Order have a concept of irony?"
This is totally in-character for Paul, who is inherently self-interested, to only really care about his personal in-group, but from Fate's PoV, immediately after he let go in good faith the boy who had just sworn an oath to find him a new host, OL declares that the Helmet is going to be put back on a shelf and left there.

No wonder Nabu largely hates him.

OL similarly only cares about the negative consequences that have affected his friends, and with poor communication it all death spirals out of control.
 
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