With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

[Hmmaster]

I have been disappointed in this arch so far and this chapter most of all. Everything just magically worked out......

I can get Zuriel not smiting Paul. But for everything to work out and then Zuriel to accept Paul's reasoning and then go against what he has stood for.....

It is disappointing since I had really high hopes of having an opposing force to Paul who weren't inherent assholes or villains. I had hoped Zuriel would demand the wings back as property of Heaven/Most High. He just gave in. Just like that. The sheer let down of this is....a lot. I would like to say things like, 'Mankind got cast out for eating the fruit so Zuriel will probably be cast out as well and Heaven will be pissed'. But in Paul's seemingly unlimited plot/narrative protection he can literally do no wrong. Even when he has committed a crime by any standard you use, he almost instantly flips the situation about.

My favorite parts of the story have been when people have had a legitimate disagreement with Paul and he had to work around. I thought this would actually lead to Paul being put on the back foot for once. Where he would be on the losing end in a PR war, power struggle. With the Silver City/Angels being such an unknown, the possibilities were huge. Now there is the bitter feeling of disappointment that everything magically worked out and I don't think it is going to go away.

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Welcome to the feelings that I've had ever since he received no ramifications for the genocide, or even since he left for space.

I don't expect any bad things to come from forcing Zauriel to fall, beyond maybe a stern conversation from Zatara in a single update, that'll be ignored just to keep the status quo.

 

[NeoDarklight]

I have been disappointed in this arch so far and this chapter most of all. Everything just magically worked out......

I can get Zuriel not smiting Paul. But for everything to work out and then Zuriel to accept Paul's reasoning and then go against what he has stood for.....

It is disappointing since I had really high hopes of having an opposing force to Paul who weren't inherent assholes or villains. I had hoped Zuriel would demand the wings back as property of Heaven/Most High. He just gave in. Just like that. The sheer let down of this is....a lot. I would like to say things like, 'Mankind got cast out for eating the fruit so Zuriel will probably be cast out as well and Heaven will be pissed'. But in Paul's seemingly unlimited plot/narrative protection he can literally do no wrong. Even when he has committed a crime by any standard you use, he almost instantly flips the situation about.

My favorite parts of the story have been when people have had a legitimate disagreement with Paul and he had to work around. I thought this would actually lead to Paul being put on the back foot for once. Where he would be on the losing end in a PR war, power struggle. With the Silver City/Angels being such an unknown, the possibilities were huge. Now there is the bitter feeling of disappointment that everything magically worked out and I don't think it is going to go away.

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Why are you assuming it just "worked out"? We've yet to see the consequences of this. For one, we've yet to see Zauriel actually eat the seeds. It's entirely plausible that he'll be "punished" by having to be Paul's... well, I want to say "Parole Officer", but that seems an inexact parallel, as Paul doesn't think he's done any real wrong, and Zauriel's purpose here isn't to make sure he commits no more sins so much as he's supposed to make sure Paul repents for something he is morally incapable of repenting for due to his own beliefs. I think I went on a tangent there...

Anyways, my point is that it's too early to say that things have just magically worked out for the better. After all, there have been many parts where Paul has actually made things worse. For instance- Paragon timeline Aberrance. And the consequences of killing the First. He may have found ways to benefit from the situation, but by no means does that mean that things just worked out. I'm betting there's going to be a great deal of moral and philosophical debate over this when it inevitably gets out, and not just about Blaze suddenly being an Angel.

 

[LazySloth13]

Imagine the League's reaction if or when Blaze joins them, how Paul turned a former demoness into an angelic being by grafting the wings of Gabriel onto her and sneaking into the Garden of Eden to steal a pomegranate from the Tree of Knowledge for her to eat, along with possibly recruiting another Angel in Zuriel when given the ability to choose to disobey the hierarchy of Heaven. All without getting smitted in the process. I can imagine that Dr. Mist tells them that one of the reasons why he decided to join the League was if a single individual like Paul could do things like this, and he usually does it for the greater good, than a team of villain can and will do even worse things and possibly destroy the whole world in the process.

Having a high enough speech skill, or just the right amount of trigger events, can really weird affects on the game when it comes to tempting an angel into possibly rebelling, not to mention getting certain achievements with positive morality when often times you need negative morality.

I bet the Team wouldn't surprise that Paul managed to pull of this crazy scheme but more that it took him longer than they expected it would take.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

You know....I'm all for kicking the silver city in the groin but...even I can't help but feel Paul could have tried to apologize for stealing the fruit here. I know that's not really genuine repentance, but it would have taken two seconds.

Beyond that, he said that he couldn't leave Paul's side until Paul repented....wouldn't this have been the perfect opportunity to check the Silver City out? Like "Fine, I'll go with you. I'm curious anyway."

I can't help but feel Paul just did something really nasty, and I hope this doesn't go horribly for the angel. Granted....I do see him getting kinda booted from heaven only to make his way back to Paul, to be steered towards the Justice League.

Still....I dunno.

 

[PeliusAnar]

No, that's not his goal, why would you think that? His goal is efficiency. PR has always, always come second to actually being effective at the job that needs to be done. Remember the whole discussion about arming the JLA satellite? Paul avoids burning bridges with people he knows and cares about personally, but I have seen no evidence that he really cares about maintaining goodwill with organizations and governments as a whole.

Furthermore... frankly, Paul's priorities have changed. Earth is a secondary concern now, because he can get validation and a sense of making a difference in the universe by working with his Orange Lantern Corps now, instead of being stuck on Earth. He doesn't need Earth anymore. Especially since most of the dominoes are already in motion, thanks to his previous efforts with Sephtian, Ted Kord, and others. Paul doesn't need to watch each domino fall to know that uplift will happen with or without him.

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I get efficiency, but he appears to be invested quite heavily into Earth. All that time and effort he has put into uplift. Also if his own home planet banned him, it would be a black mark. Religion is a powerful force in a world without angels appearing and magic. In a world where they actually exist....all his goals would be stopped.

Take his attempt at the Bleed Reactor. Instead of people going 'oh, this is a great new tech that is clean for energy' they would go 'this is clearly evil and probably makes evil radiation that needs a committee to look into it and years of testing'. Instead of 'oh he moved the moon' it would be 'he is declared an enemy by the majority of the UN and no government wants to protect him in fear of the public backlash.'

Then if the Reach came and the GL were asked to stop Paul from interfering by the UN? Yeah, things could go downhill really bad. A fall from grace like that isn't something you can easily recover from. In fact, I don't there is a living person who has ever recovered from such a blow to public perception.

 

[OrigamiPhoenix]

You guys... What he just "coerced" that Angel into was a gift.
True free will. Capacity for mortal relations. Not being intrinsically bound to his superiors and incapable of disobeying them like a brainwashed slave even when it clearly benefits them.

I think that what Paul just did was what the Most High actually wanted to happen. Zauriel wanted to be human, after all.

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FTFY. ...
Orange Lantern Zauriel?

 

[Hmmaster]

IMO, stories are more interesting when the main characters are sympathetic, or when they have to take risks, or when they face unwinnable odds and come out on top.

These days, absolutely none of that is present in the story. Paul may as well be a walking "I win" button in every scenario, at this point.

And honestly, he's been that way from the start, because Zoat took the OP rings from the comics and tried to apply them in a setting where one of the damn conciets is that things are depowered.

EDIT: Maybe Paul will face his comeuppance for some of the things that he's done, or face challenges that he can't solve, at some point in the future. But if the answer from the author is, "you'll see in about 150 updates what happened" then that's not a very well designed story at all.

 

[Selias]

To be fair, I'm not sure that Paul is actually capable of regretting what he did, after his enlightenment.

 

[Hmmaster]

To be fair, I'm not sure that Paul is actually capable of regretting what he did, after his enlightenment.

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If that's true, it's just another reason that he's not a great viewpoint to read from anymore. The whole idea that he's a protagonist that will always think that he did the right thing is just the most insufferable narration to read.

 

[BigBad]

Yeah, I think I'll take a break from this story for a while. I am rapidly losing any ability to identify with or even root for the protagonist. He just really comes across as a self-righteous dick, and I find myself actively rooting for him to fail.

Zoat, you've done a masterful job of consistent characterization and development, and I love your story, but I just don't like where your SI has ended up.

 

[Karnax626]

His wings shudder. 5.13 "I just need you to repent the theft. The use of the fruit as an act of charity is perfectly acceptable!"

"The theft was an intrinsic part of the process. I can't repent one part without repenting the whole process. And I won't repent the whole process."

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Yeah, I don't like this part. Why couldn't he at least attempt to repent for the theft, especially since it's now been shown that they'd be willing to go along with it once they see the results. The only reason I can see for him not to at least try this was if he just wanted the Angel to eat the seeds, and so ignored any other possible resolution.

This kind of thinking is why I disliked early Grayven, as he tended to default to either working around people or just bulldozing straight past them, whereas Paul worked with them.
The change seems to have started with Nabu, after which Paul seemed to decide any way of thinking not compatible with his was flawed and should be ignored.

Sure, he asked Zatara for his thoughts on his current plan, and the plant Green Lantern called him out on 'just being better than Vega really doesn't say much'.
At least when Starfire called him out he was honest about it: if you want to do this and be moral about it, work on it yourself.

 

[w34v3r]

IMO, stories are more interesting when the main characters are sympathetic, or when they have to take risks, or when they face unwinnable odds and come out on top.

These days, absolutely none of that is present in the story. Paul may as well be a walking "I win" button in every scenario, at this point.

And honestly, he's been that way from the start, because Zoat took the OP rings from the comics and tried to apply them in a setting where one of the damn conciets is that things are depowered.

EDIT: Maybe Paul will face his comeuppance for some of the things that he's done, or face challenges that he can't solve, at some point in the future. But if the answer from the author is, "you'll see in about 150 updates what happened" then that's not a very well designed story at all.

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I'm sorry what part of getting his team dragged into hell, and being in general hounded by Blaze's brother isn't precisely a result of His previous actions?

OL takes risks all the time, he just doesn't whine about it for three chapters every time something doesn't pan out. We just saw his resurrection project get a pretty big gut check.


Yes, his individual power and resources are at the point where most of his casual encounters aren't going to be direct threats, especially not in the short term, what you have to keep in mind is that OL is operating at a higher level now, he's basically in an open war with Hell and the light and he's scrambling for local resources because he can't justify tearing away corps assets right now because of the reach war, and he's afraid to simply assimilate every demon he sees now.

I mean come on guys, Batman patrols gotham on a nightly basis and probably only gets a serious threat to himself about once a month, it's not like every mugger is equipped to take him on.

Big events like when Bane 'Broke the Bat' take time and resources to set up. The Light are basically specifically gearing up to pull something along those lines, but there are moves to be made in the interim.

 

[DMC_Run]

I think you have misunderstood. Cassidy is a catholic and actually does want to achieve spiritual redemption and get into heaven and all that. Not necessarily, as you say, right now. But eventually.

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I agree. But in ADDITION to being a Catholic, Cassidy is CURRENTLY more Demon than Human (so much so, that Zuriel's mere presence gets his skin to start smoldering), & he needs to RESTORE that Humanity BEFORE he dies, if he has any hope at all of avoiding Hell.

 

[RichardWhereat]

I get efficiency, but he appears to be invested quite heavily into Earth. All that time and effort he has put into uplift. Also if his own home planet banned him, it would be a black mark.

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"His home planet." Earth is neither a monoculture, nor a mononation. If the United States bans him, there are still a great many nations that would love him. His own nation of Themyscria cares nothing for the Silver City. His home nations parallel of the UK has a great working relationship with him. Dude helped fix Malaysia from their Agent Orange problem, and Vietnams was fixed due to his involvement. China loves him, Taiwan loves him. Russia's reasonably cool with him.

Australia'd love to have him too.

The USA is not everything.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

I get efficiency, but he appears to be invested quite heavily into Earth. All that time and effort he has put into uplift. Also if his own home planet banned him, it would be a black mark. Religion is a powerful force in a world without angels appearing and magic. In a world where they actually exist....all his goals would be stopped.

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I love statements like this. "All his goals would be stopped." Such certainty.

Because all those non-abrahamic religion countries would totally give a shit right? Because if OL, backed into a goal corner, turned a place like...I dunno, Haiti or Somalia into a DC Wakanda, the people would be totally against him because some god whose never lifted a finger to help them is mad at their Orange Benefactor.

Take his attempt at the Bleed Reactor. Instead of people going 'oh, this is a great new tech that is clean for energy' they would go 'this is clearly evil and probably makes evil radiation that needs a committee to look into it and years of testing'. Instead of 'oh he moved the moon' it would be 'he is declared an enemy by the majority of the UN and no government wants to protect him in fear of the public backlash.'

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1. Alright...I'm just going to say it. I don't want to say it...but I'm gonna. Abortion. <===== that right there? Has a WHOLE lot of religious screaming and actually assassination of innocent doctors attach to it. Still exists despite all sorts of resistance. Now, something a whole lot less spine shivering, like perfect, clean energy? Come on now....What are they gonna do? Terrorist bomb it? Yeah, that'll make OL look bad. *eyeroll*

2. Declared an enemy a majority of the UN. Uh huh...again, because Yahweh is the recognized god of the whole world. Because China or Russia would absolutely NOT want to get in on any of Paul's work if somehow he was pushed out of the USA and England (the two countries he's done things in last I checked) and they could get a boost that could make them the dominant power in the world.

3. I really wish you would all stop acting like non-christians/muslims/jews don't exist. We get enough of that in the real world. Religious bullshit only matters to those people. There are plenty enough atheists and other groups that would be more then happy to work with Paul. Hell, if Thana gets all her way, you could see Greece going Olympian once more.

Then if the Reach came and the GL were asked to stop Paul from interfering by the UN? Yeah, things could go downhill really bad. A fall from grace like that isn't something you can easily recover from. In fact, I don't there is a living person who has ever recovered from such a blow to public perception.

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I'm just laughing my ass off at the idea that the Guardians are going to jump into a conflict with the OLC just because some earthlings are pissed off that Paul poked their primitive beliefs. (ANd I can't see the Guardians looking at religion as anything but)

Also? I'm pretty sure Paul would just skull-ventilate any Reach agent he sees so....

 

[Yog]

Yeah, I don't like this part. Why couldn't he at least attempt to repent for the theft, especially since it's now been shown that they'd be willing to go along with it once they see the results. The only reason I can see for him not to at least try this was if he just wanted the Angel to eat the seeds, and so ignored any other possible resolution.

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Paul almost definitely wanted the angel to eat the fruit. Otherwise he could have at least contacted heaven to have the orders rescinded / so that Zauriel could talk to his superiors.

Another aspect: what about Cranius? He contributed a lot, what is he getting out of this? And will his angel finally fly?

 

[Pizza]

Aw. I liked the numbered, alt-font text.

 

[Yog]

"His home planet." Earth is neither a monoculture, nor a mononation. If the United States bans him, there are still a great many nations that would love him. His own nation of Themyscria cares nothing for the Silver City. His home nations parallel of the UK has a great working relationship with him. Dude helped fix Malaysia from their Agent Orange problem, and Vietnams was fixed due to his involvement. China loves him, Taiwan loves him. Russia's reasonably cool with him.

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He's also probably in the line of succession of Khandaq and is their national hero.

 

[w34v3r]

Also? I'm pretty sure Paul would just skull-ventilate any Reach agent he sees so....

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No see Paul will ventilate the skulls of any Reach agents he sees.

Skull ventilating is when you use the skull to ventilate something.

 

[zachol]

This seems like it would've been a really good opportunity to see the Silver City. Paul could've at least floated it as a possibility.

 

[Zeuseus]

Eris should be rewarding Paul big time when she hears about this. If she isn't already watching it all go down.

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I think she's gonna show up to reward her devotee just as soon as she finishes her laughing fit and picks up the popcorn she spilled due to aforesaid fit. Alternatively she could be waiting to see exactly what sort of fallout this causes in the silver city before making an appearance.

 

[LordVile]

This is quite well and good but now Paul faces consequences from the lord of the white city, Lucifer and Darkseid.

He is good, but I doubt that the Ophidian can get him out of this.
His abuse of his status as an outsider to the universe also set the precedent for denying him any protections given to other humans and has made things harder for other outsiders like Raven as they are tainted by association.

Honestly, Trigon would have been easier to deal with than this.

It would be quit funny if the celestial bureaucracies take this as an excuse to swamp him with paperwork for messing up their ineffable plans.

 

[Krazyfan1]

Imagine if the Angels superioirs and God actually dont mind what happened?
like sure some grumpy ones are angry, but then some higher ups arrive and go "well, it could have been worse, Zuriel, take a vacation"

I'm just sitting here thinking that they need cell phones in heaven. This whole thing could have been avoided with a quick text.

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how about some form of....Radio station?

 

[Maxx Crowley]

IMO, stories are more interesting when the main characters are sympathetic, or when they have to take risks, or when they face unwinnable odds and come out on top.

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I find Paul plenty sympathetic, he takes plenty of risks, and OH GOD NO not more bullshit underdog bullshit. I'm so friggin tired of the plucky underdog DETERMINATION-ing his face through brick wall after brick wall. Victory in the face of unwinnable odds is LITERALLY victory just because the plot says so.

Then again. I'm a die hard Incredible Hulk fan. He doesn't face unwinnable odds...he IS the unwinnable odds. Damn it Leader...your plan would have gone off without a hitch if ONLY you hadn't poked the one guy who didn't care in the first place. Now you're gonna get smashed.

I so love it when Hulk smashes.

These days, absolutely none of that is present in the story. Paul may as well be a walking "I win" button in every scenario, at this point.

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I mean...the same can be said for Superman, Batman, or any other very popular hero to be honest.

I, for one, am very pleased to have found a Super hero story where the hero can actually WIN, make actual progress, and not just set things back to a status quo or only foil one teeny tiny part of the villains plan that doesn't matter because even though they lost, they won anyway. UNTIL!!!! THIS IS OUR LAST CHANCE! IF WE DON'T WIN NOW, THE WORLD IS DOOOOOOOMMMMMEEEEDDD! Shonen hero powers activate! "Arrrgh! I"m so god damn DETERMINED RIGHT NOW!!"

And honestly, he's been that way from the start, because Zoat took the OP rings from the comics and tried to apply them in a setting where one of the damn conciets is that things are depowered.

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And last I checked, his OP ring hasn't been the thing brute forcing his way through every problem.

EDIT: Maybe Paul will face his comeuppance for some of the things that he's done, or face challenges that he can't solve, at some point in the future. But if the answer from the author is, "you'll see in about 150 updates what happened" then that's not a very well designed story at all.

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Well that's like....your opinion man. So now onto mine....boy I'm tired of all this "comeuppance" crap. What? Is that like a rule? Protag's can't do ANYTHING without something terrible happening because of it?

If that's true, it's just another reason that he's not a great viewpoint to read from anymore. The whole idea that he's a protagonist that will always think that he did the right thing is just the most insufferable narration to read.

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Unless of course the reader agrees with him? I mean, you don't, but others do.

The USA is not everything.

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As a resident of the USA, I agree with this statement.

No see Paul will ventilate the skulls of any Reach agents he sees.

Skull ventilating is when you use the skull to ventilate something.

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I see no evidence that Paul will not rail gun the skulls of reach agents WITH the skulls of other reach agents.

 

[Norgarth]

That was evil of Paul. As in, this was a direct manipulation for 0retty selfish goals. Paul could have informed Silver City without forcing the angel to eat the fruit (which likely allow him to be corrupted now).

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You've said things along these a few times now. Exactly how is Paul supposed to get into contact with the Silver City? Cause at the moment it seems like you are assuming that he can just call up Heaven easily and get an answer, no problem.

he could have found a way to get in contact with another angel to pass along a message. he could have let the angle convince him his approach was in error and more study could have let him realize the theft was unnecessary, he could have tried some other alternatives. He has been unartistically hostile to the silver city and its agents, I suspect because he has a somewhat distorted view of them from reading Hellblazer, I doubt it's all atrocity and zealotry.

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RE the underlined bit: Really? How would he do that? You seem pretty certain it was an option. What do you base that on?

Honestly, you're all missing the much more important development: No more Buddy Cop fic!

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Hey, Zuriel is heading back to report Blaze's situation. Nothing says he can't come back afterwords to continue pestering Paul about that 'repentance' thing.

For one, we've yet to see Zauriel actually eat the seeds.

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actually we do:

Zauriel puts a single seed in his mouth, then swallows. He blinks, then staggers and I reach out to steady him. He looks at me with an expression of puzzlement, then strides from the room.

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2. Declared an enemy a majority of the UN. Uh huh...again, because Yahweh is the recognized god of the whole world. Because China or Russia would absolutely NOT want to get in on any of Paul's work if somehow he was pushed out of the USA and England (the two countries he's done things in last I checked) and they could get a boost that could make them the dominant power in the world.

3. I really wish you would all stop acting like non-christians/muslims/jews don't exist. We get enough of that in the real world. Religious bullshit only matters to those people. There are plenty enough atheists and other groups that would be more then happy to work with Paul. Hell, if Thana gets all her way, you could see Greece going Olympian once more.

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To reinforce your #2 point, there's also India with its vast Hindu population (seriously, there's over 1 Billion of them world wide, and I don't see them caring about the Abrahamic god throwing a snit).
I'm not sure the Abrihamic God could get Paul declared an enemy by all the UN Security Council, let alone a majority of of the UN itself. The UN has 193 members, you really expect to get a strong majority of them to agree on anything? :lol

This seems like it would've been a really good opportunity to see the Silver City. Paul could've at least floated it as a possibility.

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Why? What does seeing it do for him? He's not a tourist.