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It wasn't about viability, it was about compromise. For the Baby-eaters, eating babies was a core part of their utility function, something that they valued so much it was a core part of their identity. The Superhappies compromised by modifying all three races to eat babies, gain the benefits of Superhappy-psychic sex (which was their utility function axiom), and also to occassionally feel pain and struggle to learn new things (which they identified as the Human axiom).

The Superhappies basically just mashed cooperate in the prisoner's dilemma, even though they vastly overpowered both sides.
It seems like we're supposed to side with humanity in this story of yours, but I think the "Happy People" are completely right. If you have the technological ability to eliminate suffering without eliminating joy or beauty, you have a moral requirement to make said technology available to all who desire it.

See, making it available is all well and good - I agree that much - but they stop being right when they attempt to enforce their 'rightness' on people who disagree with them. The right to swing your fist ends where the other chap's nose begins, so to speak. The idea of someone... opening up my head and changing me like that is horrific in a way I lack strong enough words to adequately describe. It absolutely repulses me on a fundamental level. I would, in total and complete honesty, rather die.
 
Don't forget that in the second ending humanity starts eating its babies as well, because the Super Happy Fun people think that's the most reasonable compromise.
And a single line in the main text mentions how rape isn't illegal anymore, IIRC. Presumably to make us go "why did I assume these future humans have the same morals as me?"
 
Zuriel specifically asks : Or did you seek use its properties for the benefit of another?"

And Pau ljust zooms on through to 'cut off my hand, really.'

This feels like OL is going for a confrontation here. He could have just answered 'Yes. I took it to benefit another. Both the one consuming it as well as some Earthly allies. One who would benefit from having a choice in regards to doing good or evil.'
 
Do we actually know that all angels don't have free will? I mean, John Constantine, while smart and on his way to become the greatest mage around, isn't exactly completely flawlessly knowledgeable.
Angels have:
Fallen
Fallen in love
Tried to erase Free Will
Bunch of other stuff, probably
 
Rather than 'I don't accept your authority' I'm hoping Paul goes for the 'I can't do that because I'm not actually sorry.' route. If only to keep the angel placated.

As a direct result of stealing that fruit, he saved a bunch of souls from hell and potentially redeemed a demon.
Yeah, stealing is wrong and all, but the net good means that he's glad he did it, which would make any apology insincere.

He can't go around lying to god, can he? That's probably a sin.
 
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"I'm really sorry that I didn't found a better way of doing what I am doing and I'll try to do better in the future.
But that's kind of the rub. He's NOT sorry that he didn't find a better way of doing it, because he got what he wanted. He got what he wanted, so what could be better? Also, nothing at all indicates that OL is genuinely sorry for his actions.

Does Paul not genuinely regret that he had to sour his relationship with Silver City to get the fruit, like a man regrets having to spend money to fix his car, even if it's needed? Does he not want to get that relationship back to neutral? Does he deny Presence's existence?
I'm going to go out on a limb and state that OL does not appear to genuinely regret anything about this at this point. I really don't think he cares what the Silver city thinks. They appear to be in the same boat as the dirty hippy lady he yelled at way back when.

He doesn't appear to deny Yahweh's existence, because there is a least a little evidence that he's around. Beyond that, I don't think he respects him much.

But in this case, from the beginning he seems to be almost antagonistic to them. No attempts at negotiation, or any communication at all. Just taking what he wants, which is still fine, if kind of out of character.
Personally, I wholeheartedly approve.

But beyond that. Part of me thinks that OL didn't bother to ask for help/permission because he genuinely believed that he would simply be refused. That and it would tip his hand as to what he wanted. The last thing he needed was for them to add more security.

Honestly? I think Paul has an intense dislike for Christianity and that colors every action he takes when dealing with things associated with it.
Wouldn't it be Judaism? Or....Abrahamic religion in general? I mean, he did mention being an atheist back when he first got on the planet, meaning what you say could be true. I find most atheists tend to greatly dislike whatever religion they most have to deal with in their daily lives.

Plus he's snarked against Abraham and the Silver city a couple of times. Back when he first went to meet with Hades I believe.

As previously noted, he is starving for the knowledge of good and evil.
Um...OL seems to have a pretty good sense of Good and Evil. To the point where he openly states joy at being able to destroy said evil.
 
Honestly? I think Paul has an intense dislike for Christianity and that colors every action he takes when dealing with things associated with it.

Um. . . Yeah. Paul is about as Trans-humanist as you can be without an Alcor insurance policy, and that's probably because he doesn't really need cryonics. Most Trans-humanists I know, including myself, are either somewhat resentful of religion from when they were theists, or generally find YWHW of a laughable idea and of contemptible morality when considered as an actual moral actor. Short form if YWHW is/claims to be ineffable, then hell is its fault, and it needs to be punished/toppled for the prolonged torture of however many souls. Just because someone claims to be a moral authority and isn't directly overseeing the torture camp thier policy implemented doesn't mean they don't deserve an execution; with or without a colt .45 to the forehead.

Edit:
Short form YWHW is worse than Hitler or Stalin to some people, think how you'd react if you thought of the the wings and burning sword the way you would a Nazi SS uniform.
 
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It's just... so different from how he has been around every other group. It's like he is TRYING to get a hostile reaction.

And he is totally in the wrong here. Heaven did nothing to him but he stole from them. They are being nice about it!

Orange Light. I think the default is having to justify, why you shouldn't just take what you want, not why you could. Because, looking at his actions, I don't think Paul actually thinks that stealing is morally wrong by default, outside of context, like:

a) Stealing from someone he likes.
b) Stealing that would actually, genuinely harm the one stolen from (as in, more than just any property rights they might have), who he already doesn't want harmed.
c) Stealing that would break the social contract with a society (mark him with the social/legal status of a "thief" in that society), that he expects he could want to (continue to) have amiable relations with in the future. Which describes most societies he interacts with.

Paul doesn't like the Silver City. He knows of no way how stealing the fruit would actually hurt the angels, other than their pride. And he doesn't actually expect to ever have relations with the Silver City that would benefit him.

If you want to criticise that within the same moral framework, you could point out how:

1) Paul might not be entirely rational in his dismissal of potential future benefits of not burning bridges with the Silver City, thanks to the antipathy born out of the whole "an atheist finds out, that the God's morality debates and the problem of evil are not suddenly just hypothetical thought exercises" thing. I'm not saying there actually is, but would Paul be that quick to dismiss the possibility, had he not been an atheist from an Abrahamic faith culture?

2) Even if the moral responsibility of grossly overreacting and going full Sodom and Gomorrah would have been entirely on the angels, at least some responsibility rests on the one who provoked such a reaction, if they were aware of the possible consequences and yet did it anyway, without a sufficiently justified reason. Did Paul do a good enough risk-benefit analysis before acting? Was it right to maybe risk the lives of a lot of people for Blaze's benefit?

3) Not everybody confines the status of "thief" to the limits of the specific society's that the act of "theft" took place (even though things like "property" can be very subjective - see "intellectual property", for example). To a lot of people, the act of "stealing" is seen as a universal crime and will lower Paul's social standing and trustworthiness accordingly, in their eyes. Even if they themselves, or the societies they protect, are not actually in any danger of being stolen from by Paul.
 
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I have a question. If Paul has his scry wards, then how is he meant to actually get to an afterlife? Going to Hell requires the person taking you there, to be able to find you. Or is Death able to get past his scry wards, due to being an Endless? As if the scry wards stop Death from finding him, then when he dies, he might just become a ghost and have to physically trek to the Greek Afterlife to actually get there.
 
You what know would be a fantastic, utterly unprecedented, really weird next step here?

OL: I can't repent. Soul made of orange light.

Angel: 7.1 That is really weird.

OL: And even if I had a normal soul, I still think I am doing the right thing. Check it out, I am totally getting this demon to un fall.

Angel: 7.2 I did not think that was possible none of us did. How did you do this? We have long thought that our fallen brothers and sisters could not be saved. There is much suffering that could be prevented if they could be changed.

And then the Angels start working with OL to help Blaze become not a demon, and then start capturing and turning Demons on their own time. Except not all of them. There could be opposing factions in Heaven. Some could think that this isn't their responsibility, that they are stepping on the toes of free will by undoing the demon's choice to fall.

EDIT: missing word
 
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I have a question. If Paul has his scry wards, then how is he meant to actually get to an afterlife? Going to Hell requires the person taking you there, to be able to find you. Or is Death able to get past his scry wards, due to being an Endless? As if the scry wards stop Death from finding him, then when he dies, he might just become a ghost and have to physically trek to the Greek Afterlife to actually get there.
The SI doesn't know for certain, but from what he does know it looks like the process is mechanical. You bind yourself to an afterlife, that's where you go.
 
I'm getting a Tuggs reminder. Remember how he hates collectors because all they do is hoard tech and artifacts, and thus it was better to take them and put them to use? Seems to be OL's thought process here, minus the murder; the fruit wasn't doing anyone any good just sitting there.
 
See, making it available is all well and good - I agree that much - but they stop being right when they attempt to enforce their 'rightness' on people who disagree with them. The right to swing your fist ends where the other chap's nose begins, so to speak. The idea of someone... opening up my head and changing me like that is horrific in a way I lack strong enough words to adequately describe. It absolutely repulses me on a fundamental level. I would, in total and complete honesty, rather die.

Problem is, that concept of bodily autonomy is an axiom not shared by either of the other truly alien aliens. The Superhappies had the same biological function for thinking and breeding, so their minds were constantly effected by all of the others around them, and communication was inherently something that changed and directly effected your mind. They had little concept of the private self.

The Babyeaters on the other hand were full on social conformists. Before their scientific revolution, there were only two possible responses to a different viewpoint: force them to convert to your viewpoint, or genocide the opposing viewpoint. Their scientific revolution was what actually allowed them to see that it was possible to make an honest mistake, and that the person who had a wrong theory didn't need to be purged as being imperfect.

And even then, that revolution was gained by genociding all of those who didn't agree with the scientific method. They are basically a self-enforcing monoculture.

So, yeah, that's the problem with really alien aliens. They are so different you can't even really argue morality with them. In the story, humanity was just lucky it was the Superhappies who were the ascendant race instead of the Babyeaters, who wouldn't have even tried to compromise. There is even a point where the Superhappies recognize that the humans value game theoric cooperation, which is when they propose the compromise.

Of course, the True Ending is one which focuses directly on your viewpoint. Ultimately the ship chooses to make a choice in line with what you suggest in your post. I'd suggest reading it.
 
The Babyeaters on the other hand were full on social conformists. Before their scientific revolution, there were only two possible responses to a different viewpoint: force them to convert to your viewpoint, or genocide the opposing viewpoint. Their scientific revolution was what actually allowed them to see that it was possible to make an honest mistake, and that the person who had a wrong theory didn't need to be purged as being imperfect.

And even then, that revolution was gained by genociding all of those who didn't agree with the scientific method. They are basically a self-enforcing monoculture.

So, yeah, that's the problem with really alien aliens. They are so different you can't even really argue morality with them. In the story, humanity was just lucky it was the Superhappies who were the ascendant race instead of the Babyeaters, who wouldn't have even tried to compromise. There is even a point where the Superhappies recognize that the humans value game theoric cooperation, which is when they propose the compromise.
Not exactly. The babyeaters were prepared to discuss the subject with the humans. The discussion might not have gotten anywhere, but a dialogue was going on. It was the superhappies who opened fire and killed them mid-discussion.
 
And a single line in the main text mentions how rape isn't illegal anymore, IIRC. Presumably to make us go "why did I assume these future humans have the same morals as me?"
Wait.. this sounds vaguely familiar now, was this one of those "thoughful" pieces of crap written by the idiots over at LessWrong?

Please for the love of God tell me there hasn't been a multipage off topic circle jerk about something that vacuous cult of Yudkowsky tries to pretend is deep and meaningful.:eyebrow:
 
I don't think that the angel's request is as impossible as both the SI and the commenters are saying. The angel is asking for the SI to repent his theft. Not necessarily say that he wouldn't do the same again. The SI could genuinely regret that said theft was necessary, ask for forgiveness that he had to commit a crime in order to achieve goals that will end up helping other people, without saying that he wouldn't do the same again in identical circumstances. This would actually be consistent with the SI's character, because he does generally feel bad about hurting non-evil people, and avoids it if at all possible.

A similar example could be someone deeply regretting and asking forgiveness for killing someone else in self defense. Even if the person recognizes that they were completely right to kill the other person, and would do the same if faced with the situation again, it wouldn't necessarily change the guilt they feel for ending someone's life, and their desire for the situation to have never happened.

What the fuck are you people talking about?! I miss a week,s worth of commentary and now I'm seeing this everywhere.
Read the posts just before today's update. That gives an overview of the story they are referring to, and a link to the actual story.
 
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Not exactly. The babyeaters were prepared to discuss the subject with the humans. The discussion might not have gotten anywhere, but a dialogue was going on. It was the superhappies who opened fire and killed them mid-discussion.

But they were only prepared to discuss it because they knew the humans hadn't destroyed them yet. They were quite surprised by this, as their expectation was that the more powerful being would have destroyed a lesser being who thought differently. "You haven't kicked us, therefore you eat Babies."

This is a pretty clear indication of how they would have acted if they were stronger.

This is actually lampshaded in the story, where the Engineer mentions that their ship is so much stronger that they could withstand any attack thrown by the babyeaters, and could overpower any defence they put up at will.
 
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